Do We Predict Our Symptoms with Dr. Michael Dow

[00:00:00] Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Heal with Grace podcast.
[00:00:04] Today, we are talking all about what it means to predict our symptoms.
[00:00:10] And no, I do not mean you're doing that on purpose.
[00:00:12] You're trying to predict or it's all in your head, nothing of that nature.
[00:00:17] We're just going to help you understand actually what's going on when we
[00:00:21] continue to have symptoms and how oftentimes we don't really recognize
[00:00:26] that some that we don't have them all the time, because our minds are just
[00:00:31] so occupied with the pain and with the symptom that we forget that
[00:00:34] actually we don't have our symptoms all the time.
[00:00:37] And that's just one part of a larger conversation that we are having
[00:00:40] with one of my special guests, Dr.
[00:00:42] Michael Dow.
[00:00:43] He has actually been really helpful for me and my my learning and
[00:00:48] connecting in Boulder and Colorado.
[00:00:50] He is a licensed psychotherapist and clinical psychologist with over 20
[00:00:54] years of experience.
[00:00:56] He specializes in mindfulness based therapies and pain reprocessing therapy
[00:00:59] and his work focuses on the mind, body connection and healing, chronic
[00:01:03] pain trauma, and he works with couples and understanding the overlap
[00:01:07] between finding safety in relationships and finding safety in our
[00:01:11] nervous systems with pain.
[00:01:12] So I thought that was really interesting as well.
[00:01:15] There's a little bit of backstory as well with him and pain management
[00:01:19] versus pain treatment that I think y'all find, y'all will find
[00:01:21] really helpful.
[00:01:22] So without further ado, let's just go ahead and jump right in.
[00:01:29] Hey there and welcome to Heal with Grace.
[00:01:31] I'm your host, Grace Secker, and I'm a holistic licensed therapist
[00:01:35] and nervous system coach who believes that the chronic and
[00:01:37] often unseen symptoms you're living with are a sign of something
[00:01:41] deeper going on, a sign that your nervous system needs attention.
[00:01:45] In each episode, I'll share the science behind the most common
[00:01:48] chronic health disorders, plus holistic health tips using
[00:01:51] mental, physical and spiritual practices.
[00:01:54] You'll hear what I've learned in my journey and the true stories
[00:01:57] from our trusted guests so you can feel less alone in your
[00:02:00] experience and give yourself grace no matter what you're going
[00:02:03] through.
[00:02:04] So without further ado, settle in and get cozy.
[00:02:07] It's time to Heal with Grace.
[00:02:12] Hello and welcome back to the Heal with Grace podcast.
[00:02:16] I have a wonderful guest here, Michael Dowell, and before I go
[00:02:20] too far into it, I'll just let you introduce yourself.
[00:02:23] So.
[00:02:23] Okay.
[00:02:25] Hi, Michael.
[00:02:25] Thanks for being here.
[00:02:27] Yeah, wonderful to be here.
[00:02:28] So I'm Dr.
[00:02:29] Michael Dow, a psychologist here in Longmont, Colorado, and working
[00:02:34] with neuroplastic symptoms of all kinds is one of my passions
[00:02:38] and specialties.
[00:02:39] And I've been a therapist for almost 25 years and then got
[00:02:45] into this area about seven, eight years ago.
[00:02:48] And I also like to do couples therapy and we might talk
[00:02:50] about some of the connections there.
[00:02:52] Yeah, definitely.
[00:02:54] Can you then share with us a little bit more around how you
[00:02:58] got into this specialty?
[00:03:00] Yeah, yeah, I find this always interesting.
[00:03:03] I've talked about this before that a lot of times we get into
[00:03:06] this because of personal experience, right?
[00:03:09] Not all the time, but I think most of the people I know do that.
[00:03:12] And I also just forgot to name.
[00:03:14] I'm in a group of yours and Boulder consultation group
[00:03:17] for PRT and reprocessing therapy neuroplastic symptoms.
[00:03:21] And it's been really great to connect.
[00:03:23] And we can talk about that a little bit later for all the
[00:03:25] therapists and coaches listening to this.
[00:03:27] But I think that this community is such a strong knit one.
[00:03:30] It's really interesting to be a part of.
[00:03:32] It's really cool to be a part of.
[00:03:33] So with that, since this has not been your full career.
[00:03:38] Yeah, how did you get into this?
[00:03:40] Yes, well, how do I summarize it in the most succinct way?
[00:03:44] And I will say, Grace, I think I might be unique in that
[00:03:47] I have personal experience with pain and recovery.
[00:03:50] And I kind of didn't realize that I did until I was already
[00:03:54] working with pain, which is kind of interesting.
[00:03:57] So I have this whole background in like Buddhist meditation
[00:04:00] and mindfulness and then psychodynamic and psychoanalytic
[00:04:03] therapy and groups.
[00:04:04] Groups is one of my big focuses for years.
[00:04:07] And I still love groups.
[00:04:09] So I was running this integrated health clinic in Boulder
[00:04:13] through community mental health.
[00:04:14] So working with a lot of underserved people with who
[00:04:18] were really struggling and our whole focus was integrating
[00:04:20] therapists into health care settings.
[00:04:23] And there's a big need for that.
[00:04:25] And one of the big needs in health care settings is chronic
[00:04:29] pain. And I was working for Clinica Family Health in Boulder
[00:04:33] and they have this huge need the physicians do for like,
[00:04:37] how do we help all these people with chronic pain?
[00:04:40] It is amazing and eye-opening.
[00:04:42] How many other chronic symptoms show up in health care
[00:04:46] settings that doctors don't really know where it's coming
[00:04:50] from or how to work with?
[00:04:51] It's much more than people realize.
[00:04:56] So anyway, they asked me to help design their chronic pain
[00:05:00] program and we designed a whole chronic pain management
[00:05:03] program based around cognitive behavioral therapy and groups.
[00:05:06] And I loved doing the groups and people people love the
[00:05:10] groups, but nobody got out of pain.
[00:05:13] And we didn't even have that as a goal or like realized that
[00:05:18] that was a possibility.
[00:05:20] Until one year, I had this intern walk into my office who
[00:05:23] said, we have this treatment.
[00:05:25] I'm doing this research at CU Boulder and we have this
[00:05:28] treatment that can get people out of chronic pain.
[00:05:31] We're doing it.
[00:05:32] And this was Yoni Ashar and this was the Boulder Back
[00:05:36] Pain Study, which later became famous and the basis for
[00:05:40] this book, The Way Out, which is all about pain
[00:05:43] reprocessing therapy.
[00:05:44] So Yoni walked into my office and I was very skeptical and
[00:05:48] he was a graduate student.
[00:05:49] He hadn't really done a lot of work with patients before.
[00:05:53] And I didn't really think too much of it.
[00:05:55] We gave him some patients to work with.
[00:05:57] And then at the end of the year, he came back and
[00:05:59] did a training with us, with all the staff at the
[00:06:02] Mental Health Center on pain reprocessing therapy.
[00:06:05] And he brought in a patient who had like 30 years of
[00:06:08] pain, who had no pain.
[00:06:10] And she described her experience and it was mind blowing
[00:06:14] for somebody who was working in that area.
[00:06:16] And I had never seen anybody get out of pain.
[00:06:20] I mean, not one person.
[00:06:22] And then in the middle of that training, you know, we're
[00:06:27] doing the experiential exercises around somatic
[00:06:30] tracking, which I'm sure you've talked to your
[00:06:32] listeners about, where you try and attend to the
[00:06:34] sensations in your body from a lens of safety.
[00:06:39] And I realized that I was one of these people that I
[00:06:43] had essentially chronic headaches, and not as
[00:06:46] bad as the worst people.
[00:06:48] I mean, I was still holding a job and functioning,
[00:06:51] but I was having an incapacitating headache at
[00:06:54] least once a week, sometimes twice a week,
[00:06:58] sometimes three times a week.
[00:07:00] People have much worse situations than that actually.
[00:07:04] But I started to realize, I have a phobic
[00:07:09] relationship to these sensations.
[00:07:11] There was a kind of emotionally traumatic moment
[00:07:16] when they started some years ago.
[00:07:18] They're really fueled by stress and emotions that
[00:07:21] I don't want to have to deal with.
[00:07:23] And I had this like flash of like, this is me.
[00:07:28] I need to do this work, which was kind of weird
[00:07:32] because I'm a meditator, I'm interested in the
[00:07:36] unconscious and psychodynamic therapy.
[00:07:39] But I had never really thought to work with myself,
[00:07:42] or I didn't even think it was something that I could
[00:07:44] work with, like I just have to take pills for it.
[00:07:48] And I just sort of have to suffer with it.
[00:07:50] I did probably right away have some chunk of
[00:07:54] improvement, and then it was over the course
[00:07:56] of like the next year or really a couple of
[00:08:00] years of working with myself, doing some therapy
[00:08:06] myself, and then making some changes in my life.
[00:08:09] And which ultimately a big change was leaving my
[00:08:12] job and doing this kind of work more full time.
[00:08:16] I was in a job where I was doing a lot.
[00:08:18] It was very stressful.
[00:08:20] And I was doing a lot of stuff.
[00:08:21] I didn't, it wasn't my true love, like a lot of
[00:08:24] administrative paper crunching kind of stuff.
[00:08:29] And I was under a fair amount of threat to speak.
[00:08:33] It was a very stressful time in health care during
[00:08:35] COVID and a lot of a lot of people who were
[00:08:37] really struggling and it was getting directed
[00:08:40] towards me and other health care providers.
[00:08:42] And I totally understand because it was a
[00:08:46] really hard time for people, but it was too much.
[00:08:48] It was getting to be too much for me.
[00:08:50] So now, fast forward, this was I think I
[00:08:53] first got exposed to this.
[00:08:55] I first met Yoni maybe seven years ago.
[00:08:59] And got involved in pain reprocessing therapy.
[00:09:01] And then we started training people in it at
[00:09:04] the mental health center.
[00:09:05] And then I got involved in emotional
[00:09:08] awareness and expression therapy.
[00:09:11] And then about two years ago, I left my job
[00:09:13] and started doing private practice full time.
[00:09:16] And I should mention, Grace, I don't know if
[00:09:18] you know this actually.
[00:09:19] So my private practice is an LLC in conjunction
[00:09:23] with my wife, who's also an amazing therapist
[00:09:27] and who I've also learned a lot from.
[00:09:28] She's also trained at Naropa and does
[00:09:31] somatic body, mind, psychotherapy.
[00:09:35] And that's actually a whole other discussion,
[00:09:38] like the whole history of somatic therapy
[00:09:40] and then pain reprocessing therapy
[00:09:43] and how they kind of intersect.
[00:09:44] So anyway, so my wife and I have this.
[00:09:47] I'm here in Iowa.
[00:09:48] We have this practice here.
[00:09:49] And yeah, and my headaches are, I really
[00:09:52] feel like I'm recovered occasionally.
[00:09:54] I do get, and I just, I think it's important
[00:09:56] for people to know, like, what recovery
[00:10:00] looks like or what it means.
[00:10:01] Do you want me to just say, talk a little
[00:10:03] bit about that?
[00:10:04] Or do you want me to?
[00:10:05] Yeah, let's go to that.
[00:10:05] I think that, and then I have a couple
[00:10:08] of follow-up questions, but I think
[00:10:09] that's very important, yeah.
[00:10:11] It's hard to put a frequency on it,
[00:10:12] but when I am stressed and especially
[00:10:15] if there's some emotional stress I'm
[00:10:18] dealing with, it does often show up
[00:10:19] for me in like tension in my head or neck.
[00:10:22] And I just have a very different
[00:10:23] relationship to it.
[00:10:24] I'm not really afraid of it or certainly
[00:10:27] not as afraid of it.
[00:10:29] And I try and listen to it more and
[00:10:30] really catch it earlier and slow down
[00:10:33] and ask myself, like, what, you know,
[00:10:35] what am I feeling?
[00:10:37] What am I not paying attention to?
[00:10:39] And it's often, for me, usually about
[00:10:42] doing too much and sort of being a
[00:10:44] little too much other focused and
[00:10:47] doing things like not paying
[00:10:49] attention to my know often.
[00:10:52] Yeah.
[00:10:53] I think many people that experience
[00:10:55] chronic symptoms have that similar
[00:10:59] tendency.
[00:11:00] I mean, we know that from the different
[00:11:01] types of characteristics of your
[00:11:03] personality with people that experience
[00:11:05] chronic symptoms take on too much,
[00:11:07] other focused, harder ability to say no.
[00:11:10] And actually, as I went through my journey,
[00:11:11] I didn't really, I never thought
[00:11:15] of myself as that, never fully
[00:11:18] thought of myself as someone who's
[00:11:19] always giving and giving and always
[00:11:21] other focused.
[00:11:22] But there's a spectrum, right?
[00:11:23] And then someone pointed out to me,
[00:11:25] even just they were like, I mean,
[00:11:27] you're, you're a therapist.
[00:11:30] You are other focused a lot of the time.
[00:11:33] Right.
[00:11:33] Right.
[00:11:34] Yeah, OK.
[00:11:35] Yeah, just apparently being a therapist.
[00:11:37] Yeah. Exactly.
[00:11:38] Yeah.
[00:11:39] But I want to talk about that
[00:11:40] important distinction.
[00:11:42] You mentioned it a couple of times,
[00:11:43] one in the beginning of understanding
[00:11:45] this work where you were working
[00:11:46] with pain management.
[00:11:48] Yes.
[00:11:49] And what we're really talking about
[00:11:51] here is I use the word treatment,
[00:11:53] but I don't even know if there's a
[00:11:54] better word necessarily, you know,
[00:11:56] healing it, whatever that looks like.
[00:11:59] Right.
[00:11:59] But there's a big difference
[00:12:01] because most of the world focuses
[00:12:03] on pain management, just living
[00:12:05] with it and learning how to under,
[00:12:06] you know, manage the symptoms a
[00:12:08] little bit more.
[00:12:09] What we're really talking about
[00:12:11] here is actually getting out of
[00:12:12] those symptoms, not having to be
[00:12:14] perfect, right, but can really
[00:12:17] change that. So can you speak to
[00:12:18] that like the difference there?
[00:12:19] Totally.
[00:12:20] Yeah. And I mean, as I've evolved
[00:12:22] with this, I think I think there
[00:12:23] is a place for pain management.
[00:12:26] But because people have all kinds
[00:12:28] of situations where they're not
[00:12:30] ready to do this work.
[00:12:32] But it is fundamentally there.
[00:12:34] And there's definitely overlap
[00:12:35] with pain management.
[00:12:36] And I think of this as like pain
[00:12:38] recovery or neuroplastic
[00:12:40] work.
[00:12:40] Yeah.
[00:12:42] Or neuroplastic retraining.
[00:12:45] It's different ways of saying it.
[00:12:46] But in some ways, there's a hard
[00:12:47] line. In some ways, there's a lot of
[00:12:48] overlap, but really the difference is
[00:12:50] that it's more of a focus
[00:12:52] on getting people out of pain.
[00:12:55] And I really see
[00:12:57] recoveries that I wouldn't
[00:12:59] not only didn't see before, but
[00:13:01] didn't know
[00:13:03] could happen.
[00:13:04] And so even with some of this,
[00:13:07] there's all kinds of really great
[00:13:09] like acceptance and commitment
[00:13:10] therapy programs and somatic
[00:13:12] programs that are more focused
[00:13:14] around accepting pain.
[00:13:16] Being gentle with yourself around
[00:13:18] pain and softening around it.
[00:13:19] And all of that is great
[00:13:22] and super helpful, I think,
[00:13:24] actually for most people.
[00:13:25] But we're sort of doing this
[00:13:27] this little X.
[00:13:28] It's like the difference that
[00:13:29] makes a difference.
[00:13:30] And really the more I do this
[00:13:31] work grace, the more I think it
[00:13:33] really is not just
[00:13:35] the vast majority, not just
[00:13:37] the vast vast majority, but
[00:13:39] it's like three vasts.
[00:13:40] It's like 95
[00:13:42] percent, 99 percent, like
[00:13:44] really most persistent pain
[00:13:46] especially if it's lasted, you
[00:13:48] know, more than a year, especially
[00:13:50] if people don't have cancer or
[00:13:52] an autoimmune disease.
[00:13:54] It's mostly in your nervous
[00:13:56] system, which means it's
[00:13:57] neuroplastic. It's something
[00:13:58] that you have learned.
[00:14:00] You're not in control of.
[00:14:02] You can't just talk yourself
[00:14:03] out of it, but it can be
[00:14:05] unlearned. Some people will
[00:14:07] have a quicker journey than
[00:14:08] others. And that's a whole
[00:14:10] other interesting area.
[00:14:11] And, you know, it's like what's
[00:14:12] the difference between people who
[00:14:13] can really get better
[00:14:16] quite quickly and then people
[00:14:18] who take longer. But when
[00:14:20] we're doing pain management,
[00:14:22] we're not shooting for that
[00:14:24] at all. It's more of this
[00:14:26] message of there's something
[00:14:29] wrong with your body.
[00:14:30] You're always going to have to
[00:14:31] live with this, but we're
[00:14:32] really going to help you
[00:14:33] manage it and soften around
[00:14:36] it. And again, not to
[00:14:38] knock that, that can be
[00:14:39] helpful too, but it's
[00:14:40] different.
[00:14:41] Yeah. I I agree with you
[00:14:43] over every time, the more that
[00:14:45] I've done this, I've
[00:14:47] reflected on not only the
[00:14:49] difference between those two,
[00:14:50] but also how they go together,
[00:14:52] because if we just focus on,
[00:14:53] no, no, you can 100 percent
[00:14:55] heal and get out of your pain,
[00:14:56] then there can be pressure around
[00:14:58] it. And if it doesn't go
[00:14:59] according to plan, then
[00:15:00] there's disappointment and fear,
[00:15:02] which creates even more
[00:15:03] symptoms.
[00:15:05] So there really is, I feel
[00:15:06] like a balance of the two.
[00:15:08] And I think what we're
[00:15:10] talking about is
[00:15:12] there's more hope than just
[00:15:14] management. You really can
[00:15:15] release, decrease whatever
[00:15:17] you want to say, the pain,
[00:15:18] but throughout that, there is
[00:15:20] acceptance and management
[00:15:22] of it.
[00:15:23] Yes.
[00:15:24] Yeah. Yes.
[00:15:26] And I think just to throw
[00:15:27] this other piece in there, Grace,
[00:15:28] which you and I were talking
[00:15:29] about too, I've now gotten
[00:15:32] to this other level where I
[00:15:33] really think both based on the
[00:15:35] the research and the science in
[00:15:37] my clinical experience that
[00:15:38] people's pain is going
[00:15:40] away, it is turning off
[00:15:42] more than they realize.
[00:15:44] And because
[00:15:46] I've gotten fascinated about the
[00:15:47] whole science of predictive
[00:15:48] processing and predictive coding
[00:15:51] and how much of what we
[00:15:52] experience is not.
[00:15:55] We think of pain as being
[00:15:56] like some it's like
[00:15:58] an input, just like we think
[00:15:59] of vision as being
[00:16:01] an input in all of our senses
[00:16:02] as being an input. But what
[00:16:03] we're learning about the brain
[00:16:05] is that it's much more of what
[00:16:06] we experience is based
[00:16:08] on these predictions,
[00:16:11] which themselves are based on
[00:16:12] past experience.
[00:16:14] So we predict if I move this
[00:16:16] way, it's going to cause me
[00:16:17] pain. If I and it's unconscious,
[00:16:20] we're not thinking about it.
[00:16:21] But it's we have these unconscious
[00:16:23] predictions that are shaping
[00:16:25] our experience.
[00:16:26] And when we have what
[00:16:28] they call like a prediction
[00:16:29] error, like you do something
[00:16:31] and the pain doesn't
[00:16:33] happen, which I think
[00:16:35] is happening more than
[00:16:36] people realize.
[00:16:38] But then what happens is we
[00:16:40] discount it and we think,
[00:16:41] again, and it can be
[00:16:42] unconscious, but we think like,
[00:16:44] oh, that doesn't really matter
[00:16:45] because I didn't have pain when
[00:16:47] I sat down that time.
[00:16:49] But that didn't really matter
[00:16:50] because I was distracted.
[00:16:53] The pain was there, but I was
[00:16:54] distracted. I've heard
[00:16:56] Howard Schubertner say this
[00:16:57] too. And I really think it's
[00:16:58] true is that when people think
[00:16:59] there's more going on there
[00:17:01] than people realize when you're
[00:17:02] distracted, it's
[00:17:04] I think probably more what's
[00:17:06] going on is just that the pain
[00:17:07] is gone.
[00:17:08] But that neural circuit isn't
[00:17:10] being activated, but in some
[00:17:12] way we're discounting that
[00:17:14] experience or not emphasizing
[00:17:16] it.
[00:17:17] So that's part of what I think
[00:17:20] in any kind of therapy that
[00:17:22] you're doing around pain, I
[00:17:24] think what I'm trying to do
[00:17:25] with people is create those
[00:17:27] experiences in the office
[00:17:29] where they have some
[00:17:30] interruption in their predictive
[00:17:32] loop and the pain is either
[00:17:34] less or than they thought
[00:17:37] or goes away.
[00:17:39] Again, I think I think it's easier
[00:17:41] to create that than people
[00:17:42] realize.
[00:17:43] But to create that to have
[00:17:45] somebody have somebody be
[00:17:46] witnessed in that so they
[00:17:48] know that it's real
[00:17:50] and then to help people create
[00:17:51] that outside the office
[00:17:53] in a very simple way.
[00:17:54] I think that's what I'm trying
[00:17:55] to do with folks.
[00:17:57] Yeah. So yes.
[00:17:59] OK, I love this so far.
[00:18:01] But can we back up and describe
[00:18:02] predictive processing a little
[00:18:04] bit more for people that don't
[00:18:05] fully understand it?
[00:18:06] What does that mean in terms of
[00:18:08] our symptoms or pain?
[00:18:09] Yeah. Well, I think it's just
[00:18:11] in a really simple way.
[00:18:12] We have anticipatory systems
[00:18:15] where we're anticipating or
[00:18:16] we've learned that
[00:18:18] more of what we experience is
[00:18:20] based on our prediction than
[00:18:22] based like actually what's
[00:18:24] happened.
[00:18:25] The sensory input determines
[00:18:28] less of what we experience than
[00:18:29] we think.
[00:18:30] So
[00:18:32] there's a lot like we're just
[00:18:34] predicting if I move in this
[00:18:36] way, it's going to cause pain.
[00:18:37] If I express this emotion, it's
[00:18:39] going to it's going to be scary.
[00:18:41] If I relate to this person,
[00:18:43] it's going to be conflictual.
[00:18:44] It's not just happening with pain.
[00:18:46] It's happening with all kinds of
[00:18:47] things.
[00:18:48] And then that shapes what we
[00:18:50] actually experience.
[00:18:51] And we tend to what we tend to
[00:18:53] think is that we're just this
[00:18:54] blank slate and we're
[00:18:55] experiencing things.
[00:18:56] And it's not
[00:18:58] it's not really like that.
[00:19:00] There is an excellent book on
[00:19:01] this, The Experience Machine.
[00:19:03] It's Andy Clark's book.
[00:19:05] OK, cool. Yeah.
[00:19:06] I mean, yes, I think that you are
[00:19:07] and I think maybe a good example
[00:19:09] would be helpful of.
[00:19:11] I mean, you kind of mentioned it,
[00:19:12] but especially people who have
[00:19:14] migraines or pain where
[00:19:16] you've had a certain experience
[00:19:17] of that happening before.
[00:19:18] Maybe it's a long car ride
[00:19:21] or a long day at work, right?
[00:19:23] And you end up having more
[00:19:24] symptoms that's happened.
[00:19:25] And so you start to assume
[00:19:27] that's going to happen again.
[00:19:28] That's the prediction.
[00:19:29] Right.
[00:19:30] Right.
[00:19:31] I can give a simple example, just
[00:19:33] like with my own headaches.
[00:19:35] Because you always know you notice
[00:19:37] it when you can interrupt it.
[00:19:39] I think so, like I was going.
[00:19:41] This was a couple weeks ago,
[00:19:43] maybe a couple months ago.
[00:19:44] And you don't always know why.
[00:19:45] But I was like with my daughter
[00:19:47] and we were going to.
[00:19:49] I think it was the stock show in
[00:19:51] Denver and we just walked into
[00:19:52] the Coliseum there and there
[00:19:54] were just tons of people.
[00:19:56] And my daughter was a little bit
[00:19:58] like.
[00:19:59] Fussy or anxious or something.
[00:20:01] And she was starting to wander off.
[00:20:03] And.
[00:20:04] I could feel headache coming on.
[00:20:06] And it was like my brain is
[00:20:08] predicting like this is I could
[00:20:09] just feel the whole predictive
[00:20:12] machinery starting to kick in
[00:20:13] like one of my triggers is being
[00:20:15] around a lot of people in a crowded
[00:20:17] space and.
[00:20:18] Feeling a little bit dizzy
[00:20:20] and overwhelmed and.
[00:20:22] And then I'm trying to relate
[00:20:23] to someone that they were having
[00:20:25] a little tension.
[00:20:26] And so I interrupted it and I
[00:20:28] just stopped and just, you know,
[00:20:30] I even just closed my eyes, just
[00:20:31] held my daughter's hand and just
[00:20:34] reassured myself.
[00:20:36] I mean, I was able to interrupt it
[00:20:37] before it got too bad.
[00:20:39] And I was quite far along
[00:20:42] in my recovery.
[00:20:43] So earlier on, this would have been
[00:20:44] harder.
[00:20:45] And I just was like, I'm going to
[00:20:46] be OK.
[00:20:47] The sensations are safe to feel.
[00:20:50] There's nothing dangerous here.
[00:20:51] And I'm sort of interrupting that
[00:20:52] prediction of there's
[00:20:55] there's something dangerous.
[00:20:56] You're going to have conflict
[00:20:57] with your daughter.
[00:20:57] You're not going to you're going
[00:20:58] to get separated.
[00:20:59] There are these people here.
[00:21:00] So I mean, that's just maybe a
[00:21:02] simple example.
[00:21:03] You can find lots of examples of
[00:21:05] how your prediction will shape
[00:21:07] your perception, just like
[00:21:09] you're expecting to see
[00:21:10] something.
[00:21:11] And then you actually see that
[00:21:13] thing, even though
[00:21:15] it's it's different than
[00:21:17] than what's actually there.
[00:21:18] Yeah, I think there's another.
[00:21:20] I'm not sure if it's the
[00:21:21] complete circle is when we're
[00:21:22] talking about pain.
[00:21:23] But I mean, self-fulfilling
[00:21:24] prophecy was something that
[00:21:26] people.
[00:21:27] Yeah, right.
[00:21:28] It very much so can happen
[00:21:30] on, I think, very many levels,
[00:21:32] which is what you're talking
[00:21:33] about.
[00:21:33] And it happens so often way
[00:21:35] more than we realize, not just
[00:21:37] about our body or symptoms, but
[00:21:38] about life or relationships
[00:21:40] ourselves.
[00:21:41] Yeah.
[00:21:42] We predict things all day long.
[00:21:44] Totally.
[00:21:45] I mean, the great example that
[00:21:46] Howard Schubertner uses, if I
[00:21:48] can steal from him, maybe you
[00:21:49] heard this one about
[00:21:52] when his wife would bring him
[00:21:53] an apple in the morning and
[00:21:55] he was she'd like bring him
[00:21:56] sliced apple.
[00:21:58] And he was like had his eyes
[00:21:59] closed and she gave him a piece
[00:22:01] of sliced apple and he bit down
[00:22:03] in it.
[00:22:04] And it tasted totally rotten
[00:22:07] until he opened his eyes and
[00:22:08] saw it's sliced peach.
[00:22:10] It's not sliced apple.
[00:22:12] So his brain was predicting
[00:22:14] apple and then interpreted
[00:22:16] that taste from that
[00:22:18] perspective.
[00:22:19] So it was like, oh, this is
[00:22:20] a really rotten apple.
[00:22:22] But actually it's a really
[00:22:23] fresh ripe peach.
[00:22:24] So but the actual
[00:22:26] taste got all mangled
[00:22:28] because of his prediction.
[00:22:29] So that's another example.
[00:22:31] Yeah. Hey, friend, it's Grace.
[00:22:33] I know you're tired of feeling
[00:22:34] like managing your physical and
[00:22:36] mental health is just one big
[00:22:37] moving target.
[00:22:38] I also know that you've spent
[00:22:39] years of your life and hundreds
[00:22:41] of dollars on doctor's visits,
[00:22:42] juice cleanses, fad diets
[00:22:44] and fancy supplements, only to
[00:22:46] feel like nothing about your
[00:22:47] chronic symptoms has changed.
[00:22:49] If this sounds like you,
[00:22:50] consider this your invitation
[00:22:51] to find a holistic health
[00:22:53] protocol that works for you
[00:22:54] and your body.
[00:22:55] Even if you have chronic
[00:22:56] symptoms, unhealed trauma
[00:22:57] or a dysregulated nervous system,
[00:23:00] that's exactly what's waiting
[00:23:01] for you inside the mind, body
[00:23:02] healing method.
[00:23:04] My 12 week group program
[00:23:05] that's designed to help you say
[00:23:06] body or chronic symptoms
[00:23:08] through learning how to regulate
[00:23:09] your nervous system, retrain
[00:23:11] your brain and heal unresolved
[00:23:12] trauma.
[00:23:13] Our clients have found relief
[00:23:15] from even the most chronic of
[00:23:16] symptoms, including fibromyalgia,
[00:23:18] sciatica, migraines,
[00:23:19] gut issues and other
[00:23:21] uncomfortable symptoms without pills
[00:23:23] or a long list of rituals and
[00:23:24] regimens.
[00:23:25] If you'd like to learn more about our
[00:23:26] program, head over to the show notes
[00:23:28] and learn more because the truth is
[00:23:30] that there is a protocol that works
[00:23:32] for you. You just might not
[00:23:34] have found the right balance for
[00:23:35] your body yet.
[00:23:37] Now let's get back to the episode.
[00:23:39] I also actually I just
[00:23:41] think it was last week released
[00:23:43] or a couple of weeks ago released
[00:23:43] an episode about my own flair
[00:23:46] and my symptoms, which was
[00:23:48] so much about the
[00:23:49] fear that was built up around it.
[00:23:51] And I talked about that
[00:23:53] when I was in New Zealand of
[00:23:55] there was a lot of fear around this
[00:23:57] this travel and the space and
[00:23:59] this time and everything that was
[00:24:00] happening. And yeah, I brought
[00:24:02] on some symptoms and it
[00:24:04] happens.
[00:24:06] Yeah, it happens so much more.
[00:24:07] So OK, so can you
[00:24:09] speak to that then how you're
[00:24:11] noticing that it does happen even
[00:24:13] with some of your clients or
[00:24:14] patients of OK, you're noticing
[00:24:15] that happens throughout their time,
[00:24:17] throughout their recovery time too.
[00:24:19] Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:20] I just want to make one point.
[00:24:21] I'm just thinking of Grace.
[00:24:22] Is it that what we're talking about
[00:24:24] here is triggers.
[00:24:25] That's an example of process,
[00:24:27] except the key thing is that it's
[00:24:29] not the thing that's causing
[00:24:31] the the reaction in you
[00:24:33] is not the thing out there.
[00:24:35] It's your predictive processing
[00:24:37] around it.
[00:24:38] Like it's not the actual apple
[00:24:40] that was causing the rotten taste.
[00:24:42] It's his prediction around it.
[00:24:44] Yeah, a really great.
[00:24:46] I use food a lot with this
[00:24:48] because it's such it's almost
[00:24:50] like such an easy thing to see
[00:24:52] of, oh, I ate this thing.
[00:24:53] It caused me these symptoms
[00:24:55] and it happens a lot in this
[00:24:56] community where we get really
[00:24:57] intolerant of food and food
[00:24:59] sensitive.
[00:24:59] And it's hard to believe it
[00:25:01] first because there's so much
[00:25:03] rhetoric and information around
[00:25:04] there around what food is best
[00:25:06] for you or healthy for you.
[00:25:07] We're going to change this
[00:25:08] about your body.
[00:25:10] Right.
[00:25:11] Unless there's an I always say
[00:25:12] this unless there's a true allergy.
[00:25:15] Sensitivity that you've developed
[00:25:17] over time is much more
[00:25:18] about your predictive processing,
[00:25:21] your assumption about
[00:25:23] that food.
[00:25:24] And it's not I want to say this
[00:25:26] too, as we're talking about it.
[00:25:27] It is not your fault.
[00:25:28] It's not something you're making
[00:25:29] happen.
[00:25:30] It's not something you're trying
[00:25:31] to do.
[00:25:34] It's your brain and your nervous
[00:25:35] system.
[00:25:36] Yes.
[00:25:37] And it's not in your control.
[00:25:38] Like it's just that this is how
[00:25:40] the brain works.
[00:25:41] And a lot of people
[00:25:43] don't know about that.
[00:25:45] Yeah.
[00:25:45] Yeah.
[00:25:47] Yeah.
[00:25:47] You use the term people
[00:25:49] symptoms turning on and off
[00:25:51] more than they realize.
[00:25:53] Yeah.
[00:25:55] Can you speak a little bit more
[00:25:56] to that?
[00:25:59] I just think of this one guy
[00:26:01] recently.
[00:26:01] And I'm always careful not to give
[00:26:03] too many details because it's
[00:26:04] confidential.
[00:26:05] But I mean, this can happen.
[00:26:07] This was literally the first
[00:26:08] session.
[00:26:09] He didn't know about the science
[00:26:11] of pain and predictive
[00:26:12] processing.
[00:26:12] And so part of it is just
[00:26:14] teaching him about that.
[00:26:15] And then we did and he had this
[00:26:16] neck pain.
[00:26:17] And so we just practice
[00:26:19] like just turning what happens
[00:26:20] when you turn your neck.
[00:26:22] And so the pain turned on.
[00:26:24] He was we were turning our
[00:26:25] necks together and the pain
[00:26:26] turned on.
[00:26:27] And then we practice
[00:26:30] giving some affirmations to
[00:26:31] his his unconscious brain
[00:26:34] after he'd sort of had
[00:26:36] an orientation around like
[00:26:39] pain does not always equal
[00:26:40] damage.
[00:26:42] Harm is different than hurt.
[00:26:43] So we just practice saying
[00:26:44] some things like my neck is
[00:26:46] safe.
[00:26:47] There's nothing wrong with my
[00:26:48] neck.
[00:26:49] And his pain turned off.
[00:26:50] And he turned his head and he
[00:26:51] had no pain.
[00:26:52] And he didn't remember
[00:26:53] turning his head without pain
[00:26:55] for 20 years.
[00:26:57] So you can hear that story
[00:26:59] and you can think that some
[00:27:00] magic that Michael was doing.
[00:27:01] And that's sort of how he
[00:27:03] felt.
[00:27:03] He's like, how did you do
[00:27:05] that?
[00:27:05] Did you hypnotize me?
[00:27:06] Is that some magic that you're
[00:27:07] doing?
[00:27:08] And when I first saw
[00:27:12] like Alan Gordon and some of
[00:27:13] these other people doing this
[00:27:15] kind of work, it seemed
[00:27:16] like it was magic.
[00:27:18] But it's really it's not
[00:27:19] magic.
[00:27:20] And it's not like I'm some
[00:27:22] incredible therapist.
[00:27:24] You know, I mean, I think I'm
[00:27:25] good, but it's not it's really
[00:27:26] just that his pain is turning
[00:27:28] on and off more than he
[00:27:29] realized.
[00:27:30] And he had somebody witness it.
[00:27:32] His brain responded to that
[00:27:34] message of safety really well.
[00:27:37] But you know, it was the time
[00:27:39] was ripe for him to really
[00:27:40] get it.
[00:27:40] And he just got it.
[00:27:42] And in that moment, having me
[00:27:43] there to say, look, your
[00:27:46] pain turned off.
[00:27:46] Let's not discount.
[00:27:47] That's that's that's your pain
[00:27:50] turning off.
[00:27:51] That means that your pain is
[00:27:53] neuroplastic.
[00:27:54] Because if you can turn your
[00:27:55] neck and there's you're not
[00:27:57] getting pain, that means
[00:27:59] there's nothing wrong with
[00:28:01] your neck structurally.
[00:28:03] So that's that's like a simple
[00:28:05] example.
[00:28:06] I have other ones too.
[00:28:07] But and other ones where
[00:28:09] people for all kinds of
[00:28:11] reasons, a lot of them really
[00:28:12] valid, have trouble making
[00:28:14] that it's almost like a 10
[00:28:16] percent shift to like see, oh,
[00:28:19] that counts when it that really
[00:28:21] counts that means something.
[00:28:24] I think that piece and you
[00:28:26] mentioned this earlier where
[00:28:28] sometimes we forget to even
[00:28:29] acknowledge the times that
[00:28:30] we're not having symptoms or
[00:28:32] pain.
[00:28:33] Because we're so focused on the
[00:28:35] times that we do.
[00:28:37] Yeah.
[00:28:37] And how that even plays a
[00:28:38] role in all of this.
[00:28:39] Yeah.
[00:28:40] Yeah.
[00:28:42] I have another example for
[00:28:43] you if you want.
[00:28:44] OK.
[00:28:44] Yeah.
[00:28:45] Go for it.
[00:28:45] Examples are helpful, right?
[00:28:47] Often they're more helpful
[00:28:49] instead of us trying to explain
[00:28:51] it, at least for me, sometimes
[00:28:52] I notice I get into language
[00:28:53] is not always understandable.
[00:28:54] Yeah.
[00:28:56] This was from a friend of mine
[00:28:57] and I don't know if he'll
[00:28:58] listen to this, but
[00:29:00] but if he does listen to it,
[00:29:01] I'm not going to I'm not going
[00:29:02] to out him really, really
[00:29:04] wonderful guy and very
[00:29:05] sophisticated, smart, super
[00:29:08] just super guy.
[00:29:09] But he's been having all this
[00:29:10] like stomach pain for years
[00:29:12] really.
[00:29:13] And it comes and goes.
[00:29:14] He's on all different medications
[00:29:16] for GERD acid reflux.
[00:29:18] You know, don't really help.
[00:29:19] But we were talking and he
[00:29:21] said he noticed and I was
[00:29:23] explaining this neuroplastic,
[00:29:24] you know, the fact that it
[00:29:25] turns on and off, it
[00:29:27] could be neuroplastic.
[00:29:30] And he was discounting that
[00:29:31] and he thought, well, it's
[00:29:33] I don't know, it's turning
[00:29:34] on and off because
[00:29:36] the meds aren't working or,
[00:29:37] you know, he just wasn't
[00:29:38] thinking about that.
[00:29:39] And as we talked about it,
[00:29:40] he said, well, you know,
[00:29:41] there was this time I did.
[00:29:43] I went to my yoga class
[00:29:45] and I had pain before the yoga
[00:29:47] class.
[00:29:48] And then I really relaxed
[00:29:50] in the yoga class and the pain
[00:29:51] went away.
[00:29:52] And I felt this sadness.
[00:29:55] And he's had a number of events
[00:29:57] that have happened in his life
[00:29:58] that have been really sad.
[00:29:59] And.
[00:30:00] And so when he described that,
[00:30:02] I was able to say to him,
[00:30:03] look, let's highlight that
[00:30:06] your pain turned off
[00:30:08] because I think it's not
[00:30:10] just random.
[00:30:11] It could be.
[00:30:12] But it sounds like
[00:30:13] it's because you relaxed into it.
[00:30:16] You weren't afraid of it
[00:30:17] and you felt the feeling
[00:30:19] that was underneath that.
[00:30:21] And so just my saying that
[00:30:23] and sort of highlighting it
[00:30:25] for him, where he would
[00:30:26] normally discount that
[00:30:27] and because he's a really
[00:30:29] smart, sensitive, sophisticated
[00:30:31] guy, you know, he was able
[00:30:33] to start
[00:30:34] to sort of integrate that
[00:30:35] and say
[00:30:37] and to start noticing it more.
[00:30:39] So that's
[00:30:40] it's not always that easy,
[00:30:41] but just another example.
[00:30:43] Yeah.
[00:30:44] Well, and you touched on something
[00:30:46] there that I want to highlight
[00:30:48] that.
[00:30:50] And we actually were talking
[00:30:51] about this before that sometimes
[00:30:52] using our body
[00:30:54] and our nervous system reasoning
[00:30:55] for holding onto the pain.
[00:30:57] It's usually something else,
[00:30:59] whether that is
[00:31:00] because we don't want to feel grief
[00:31:01] or there's some sort of
[00:31:03] something we're getting from it.
[00:31:05] And so sometimes when
[00:31:07] or when we're looking for all the
[00:31:09] ways that we have pain,
[00:31:10] it can be a
[00:31:12] I don't really want to use the word
[00:31:13] distraction, but it's in a way
[00:31:14] it's a distraction from actually
[00:31:15] what's underneath.
[00:31:17] Right. For him, it seemed like
[00:31:18] this sadness that was happening
[00:31:20] for other people, there can be
[00:31:21] an attachment to
[00:31:23] the attention
[00:31:25] that they're getting, you know,
[00:31:27] in their pain and their illness.
[00:31:28] And that is not to say
[00:31:30] that is not to say you're
[00:31:31] making it happen.
[00:31:32] So you get attention.
[00:31:33] It's not in a ego way
[00:31:35] or a selfish way or anything
[00:31:36] like that.
[00:31:37] It's a very human way
[00:31:39] to receive our needs.
[00:31:41] Right.
[00:31:42] Yeah. So I guess
[00:31:44] what I'm asking here is
[00:31:46] can you speak a little bit to
[00:31:48] maybe how how that happens,
[00:31:49] how we end up
[00:31:51] and our symptoms that
[00:31:52] might be causing us
[00:31:54] are not causing, but they're there
[00:31:56] for a more reason than we realize.
[00:31:58] I totally just want to emphasize, Grace,
[00:32:01] this is just part of being human.
[00:32:03] I mean, include myself in this
[00:32:04] and it's not even like
[00:32:06] a pathology, really.
[00:32:07] It's just part of being human
[00:32:10] that we all have feelings
[00:32:11] that are hard to feel that are that are scary.
[00:32:13] We all have, you know,
[00:32:15] situations that are challenging.
[00:32:17] I think for myself,
[00:32:18] like with my own headaches,
[00:32:20] there was something
[00:32:22] it wasn't so much sadness,
[00:32:23] but more like fear of being angry,
[00:32:26] maybe a fear of setting limits,
[00:32:28] maybe some kind of.
[00:32:30] Fear, I don't know, fear is the right word,
[00:32:32] but some kind of just like orientation
[00:32:34] towards not taking care
[00:32:37] of myself enough or not
[00:32:39] not being myself fully.
[00:32:42] So, I mean, it's sort of serving,
[00:32:44] you know, your question is like,
[00:32:45] how does how does pain
[00:32:48] serve a function for people?
[00:32:49] Is that what kind of what you were asking?
[00:32:52] Yeah, so I mean,
[00:32:54] and again, none of this is conscious,
[00:32:55] but it can serve that function of like
[00:32:58] helping you not be yourself
[00:33:00] or like the part of you
[00:33:01] that's like afraid of fully inhabiting the world
[00:33:04] and fully being yourself.
[00:33:06] And then from that position,
[00:33:08] you can sort of feel free to complain more,
[00:33:12] but be less powerful.
[00:33:14] And it's a little scary to step into your power
[00:33:17] and to step into like,
[00:33:19] no, this is what I want, this is,
[00:33:20] but there can be all kinds of dynamics around it.
[00:33:23] I think another thing I keep coming back to
[00:33:25] in this work is I think it's very, very simple.
[00:33:29] It's very, very simple.
[00:33:30] And people are incredibly complex.
[00:33:34] And so the journey is very different
[00:33:37] for each person and very complex.
[00:33:41] And both of those are true at the same time.
[00:33:43] And like the simple thing is that it's like
[00:33:46] our nervous system, pain, dizziness, fatigue,
[00:33:51] all this kind of stuff is our brain's danger system.
[00:33:54] And anything that your brain codes as dangerous,
[00:33:58] your brain predicts is gonna be dangerous,
[00:34:00] like a movement, a sensation, an emotion, anything
[00:34:03] can trigger that alarm.
[00:34:05] And that's really, really simple actually as a model.
[00:34:08] Like it's much simpler than,
[00:34:12] like you've got four different things wrong with you
[00:34:14] and you've got this enzyme that's wrong
[00:34:16] and this thing that's wrong and this L4,
[00:34:18] like it's much simpler than all that.
[00:34:20] But the more I work with people,
[00:34:22] like everybody's journey and what's gonna click
[00:34:24] for somebody, what emotion they need to work on
[00:34:27] or something in their life they need to change.
[00:34:29] It's so varied.
[00:34:31] Yeah, it's very true because it is simple and easy
[00:34:35] but that doesn't always mean it's straightforward.
[00:34:38] It's not straightforward, yeah.
[00:34:39] Yeah, for each individual it's different.
[00:34:43] But yeah, it can be much simpler than everything else
[00:34:47] that you've probably tried and it isn't working.
[00:34:50] Yeah.
[00:34:52] And also because I do couples work,
[00:34:53] I'm really interested in the connection
[00:34:55] between relational dynamics and what's,
[00:34:59] and helping people develop more security and safety
[00:35:02] in their relationship and then how that plays into people
[00:35:06] having more security and safety with their own bodies
[00:35:09] and also vice versa.
[00:35:10] I think there's a big connection there.
[00:35:13] And I've learned so much about that
[00:35:15] through my relationship with my wife
[00:35:17] who's just incredible partner.
[00:35:20] There's a lot, there's so much interesting stuff there.
[00:35:23] I wanna dive into that.
[00:35:24] I know this could be a whole other episode
[00:35:26] but let's dive there because I think that's so important
[00:35:30] and I don't really hear it talked about a whole lot
[00:35:33] in this area of understanding,
[00:35:36] okay, relationships are a cornerstone of us being human.
[00:35:41] We are relational beings, right?
[00:35:42] And that's where we get triggered and activated a lot
[00:35:45] of times because the different hurt parts
[00:35:47] of us are activated in relationships
[00:35:49] which could increase our danger response.
[00:35:53] I think that, yeah, this is a really important topic.
[00:35:56] My question is, well, I have a couple.
[00:36:00] My first one would be,
[00:36:02] how do you find working with couples?
[00:36:04] Maybe there's one person that has symptoms
[00:36:07] or even an individual that you're working with
[00:36:09] that maybe is talking about the relationship.
[00:36:11] Do you find that they need to,
[00:36:15] something has to change in their relationship
[00:36:16] for them to get out of pain or symptoms?
[00:36:20] And my answer to all this stuff is just it depends.
[00:36:23] Every situation is different.
[00:36:24] I mean, it certainly can help if people,
[00:36:28] sometimes yes, sometimes no.
[00:36:29] The connection I think about pain
[00:36:31] is being your brain's like danger system.
[00:36:34] And there's a lot of connection there
[00:36:36] to the whole idea of attachment
[00:36:40] which is a whole nother topic,
[00:36:41] but how our brain is wired in relationship
[00:36:44] with our primary caregiver.
[00:36:46] And what you want in a good relationship
[00:36:49] with the primary caregiver is for the baby,
[00:36:52] the infant to experience like that when it cries,
[00:36:55] when the baby's in distress that there's a response.
[00:36:59] There's a contingent response.
[00:37:01] And it's not like 100% of the time.
[00:37:04] It's sort of good enough,
[00:37:06] but that the response from the caregiver
[00:37:08] is not like making the danger,
[00:37:10] just alarm cry worse.
[00:37:13] And so that's a key thing with couples
[00:37:16] is helping people because when you're
[00:37:18] in a couple of relationships,
[00:37:20] all of that kind of circuitry that was laid down
[00:37:23] in the primary relationship with the infant
[00:37:27] gets sort of repurposed
[00:37:29] for how you relate to your partner.
[00:37:31] So helping partners be soothing
[00:37:34] and supportive to each other.
[00:37:36] And then importantly helping them interrupt
[00:37:38] those predictive threat patterns
[00:37:40] which are just totally normal,
[00:37:43] but often people will sort of go into those
[00:37:47] kind of threat states with each other
[00:37:49] and helping couples find the key to like step out of that.
[00:37:54] It's almost like a neural circuit,
[00:37:55] how to step out of that neural circuit
[00:37:58] and into a way of relating that's more
[00:38:03] where people are sending signals of safety to each other.
[00:38:09] I've certainly seen like where it's a key part
[00:38:12] in people's pain journey
[00:38:14] is and especially if someone has a willing partner,
[00:38:18] it can be so helpful to have somebody
[00:38:20] who can take the pressure down
[00:38:23] and listen for what the emotion is underneath the pain,
[00:38:26] even if it sort of feels like it's delivered in a way
[00:38:28] that somebody doesn't appreciate to really,
[00:38:31] what is your partner trying to tell you underneath that?
[00:38:35] Underneath the pain?
[00:38:37] Yeah, like underneath, you know,
[00:38:38] like just for example, like maybe I was working,
[00:38:42] this is very common,
[00:38:44] but I had a couple where she would have back aches
[00:38:48] whenever they would go visit the in-laws
[00:38:50] and her back would go out.
[00:38:52] So like what's the message underneath there?
[00:38:55] And it was something around like,
[00:38:57] and I'm feeling alone,
[00:38:59] I need more support from you husband
[00:39:02] when we're with your family
[00:39:04] because I'm feeling not protected.
[00:39:07] So.
[00:39:08] Yeah, I think that's actually a really great example,
[00:39:11] which I would assume does happen quite often.
[00:39:13] And then I'll even highlight too that
[00:39:16] that relates to what we were saying around pain
[00:39:18] can be a mechanism to actually get maybe
[00:39:21] some of your needs met.
[00:39:22] So maybe the pain allowed for a little bit
[00:39:25] more attunement from the partner.
[00:39:29] I don't know, I guess it could go either way
[00:39:31] depending on how the partner responds,
[00:39:32] but maybe it's the pain that is the,
[00:39:34] it's the asking for that.
[00:39:37] Yes.
[00:39:38] Right.
[00:39:39] It's asking, you know, and then you sort of look at,
[00:39:42] what could help you verbalize that more
[00:39:46] so your husband can respond,
[00:39:48] can really hear you and what's the history around
[00:39:50] that that's scary for you to do that?
[00:39:53] And then husband, how can you respond to your wife more
[00:39:56] so that it doesn't need to come out in this pain?
[00:39:59] Yeah.
[00:40:00] Yeah.
[00:40:01] That's a great example.
[00:40:03] Yeah.
[00:40:04] Yeah, I think the couple's work is really interesting
[00:40:05] and how you're blending it in a way
[00:40:09] because it all goes together.
[00:40:10] I mean, pain work is, yes, we have to understand
[00:40:14] what's going on.
[00:40:14] There's an education around it that's really helpful,
[00:40:16] right, understanding the mind and body
[00:40:18] and nervous system connection.
[00:40:19] And at the same time,
[00:40:21] it's really just a mechanism for self-work,
[00:40:24] for understanding yourself better,
[00:40:25] understanding your patterns, relationships.
[00:40:29] It can be a whole transformation if you go there
[00:40:32] and let it.
[00:40:34] On some level, it's about learning
[00:40:37] to be kinder to yourself,
[00:40:38] learning to listen to your body more,
[00:40:40] learning to be kinder to yourself,
[00:40:42] and that's only gonna allow your relationships
[00:40:45] to be better too if you're kinder with yourself.
[00:40:50] That's one of the places I see people,
[00:40:52] I don't know about you,
[00:40:53] but I see people getting stuck in their journey
[00:40:55] when there's still a lot of this looping
[00:40:58] of putting a lot of pressure on themselves,
[00:41:01] self-criticism, not being where they think
[00:41:04] they should be, all the shoulds and the coulds.
[00:41:07] Yes.
[00:41:08] And all that programming, that looping going on,
[00:41:11] I see people get stuck in there in their pain.
[00:41:15] Yeah, I totally know what you're talking about, Grace.
[00:41:17] I have a couple of people like that right now.
[00:41:20] The metaphor I was using,
[00:41:21] it's a little bit like if you have to go to the bathroom
[00:41:23] and you're like holding it and holding it,
[00:41:25] and then you see the bathroom
[00:41:27] and then the last little bit is so hard
[00:41:31] because you can see it and you're so close.
[00:41:34] And so I do find that with a lot of people
[00:41:35] can get percent better.
[00:41:38] And people talk about getting 95% better
[00:41:40] and that last little bit of just learning
[00:41:44] and it really requires like patience
[00:41:48] and really being patient and accepting of yourself
[00:41:50] and accepting of the symptom and not
[00:41:53] and sort of giving up on like trying to make it go away
[00:41:57] and then it can often go away.
[00:42:00] And it just takes time.
[00:42:02] And there's a saying they use
[00:42:04] in pain reprocessing therapy,
[00:42:05] like it takes as long as it takes
[00:42:08] for your brain to learn that it doesn't have to be afraid.
[00:42:13] And that can just take as long as it takes.
[00:42:17] Well, and I think when it's taking longer,
[00:42:19] I think it usually means that there's something more
[00:42:23] for you to learn there.
[00:42:24] If you can think back to when the pain started,
[00:42:27] that's often a really fruitful thing
[00:42:28] to really examine that.
[00:42:30] Back to when it started and then when it amps up now
[00:42:34] in your life, what are the themes there?
[00:42:36] And often if the pain is not completely going away,
[00:42:41] you've addressed a lot of it,
[00:42:42] but there's some little piece there
[00:42:44] that and it might be a change in your life.
[00:42:47] It might be some emotion that you haven't quite addressed
[00:42:51] or and sometimes it takes a little while
[00:42:53] to feel your way into what that is.
[00:42:55] Yeah, it does.
[00:42:56] As long as it takes is a great saying.
[00:42:58] We have to remind ourselves over and over and over
[00:43:01] and the compassion piece, the kindness piece
[00:43:04] is something I talk about all the time on here.
[00:43:07] I mean, I didn't just name my podcast,
[00:43:10] Heal With Grace, because it's my name.
[00:43:12] It's also a double meaning, right?
[00:43:15] We need a lot of grace and compassion in our...
[00:43:17] Do, yeah.
[00:43:19] I started at Naropa and one of the themes
[00:43:22] of our program there is my tree,
[00:43:25] which is compassion in Sanskrit.
[00:43:29] It's considered the foundation
[00:43:31] for the Buddhist spiritual journey
[00:43:34] and it's really the foundation for healing,
[00:43:37] I think, is self-compassion
[00:43:39] and it's the foundation for helping others
[00:43:41] is being able to have compassion for yourself
[00:43:44] and not like it's not in a mushy, soft way,
[00:43:48] but in kind of a fierce way
[00:43:49] of like I can be with this part of myself.
[00:43:52] I can be with this part of myself.
[00:43:54] This part of myself is also okay.
[00:43:57] Yeah.
[00:43:58] Yeah.
[00:44:00] I like that being with it in a fierce way.
[00:44:03] Yeah.
[00:44:04] There's emphasis, there's intention,
[00:44:05] there's, yeah, ferocity behind it.
[00:44:09] Yeah.
[00:44:10] Yeah, and some fearlessness.
[00:44:13] It's not easy.
[00:44:14] I mean, I think often when, again,
[00:44:17] to go that extra mile and really sort of like
[00:44:20] get there with your recovery,
[00:44:21] there's often some part of yourself
[00:44:23] that you're afraid of facing
[00:44:25] that are some part of your life
[00:44:28] that you're afraid of facing
[00:44:30] that your pain is sort of asking you to face.
[00:44:33] Usually people are up for it.
[00:44:36] I think people can face more than they realize.
[00:44:40] I think the demons are scarier than, you know,
[00:44:44] they really are when you face them.
[00:44:47] I do wanna encourage people,
[00:44:49] like if you're still dealing with pain
[00:44:50] and you haven't healed yet, just keep going
[00:44:54] and keep having patience and softness with yourself
[00:44:58] and try something else.
[00:45:00] There's all, you know, if one therapist doesn't work,
[00:45:05] try another one, there's all kinds of things out there
[00:45:08] and there's different things
[00:45:09] that click for different people.
[00:45:10] And it really is fighting that thing that clicks,
[00:45:14] which from my perspective would be
[00:45:17] that thing that helps you feel safe,
[00:45:20] that thing that helps you feel less fear
[00:45:24] around your symptoms, whatever that is.
[00:45:26] But I do think it's there for the vast, vast,
[00:45:29] I wanna say three vasts, vast, vast, vast majority
[00:45:32] who are dealing with persistent symptoms.
[00:45:34] Yeah.
[00:45:35] I think that's a really wonderful place
[00:45:37] to end the, keep going and do it with lots
[00:45:41] and lots and lots of compassion
[00:45:43] and lots of kindness to yourself.
[00:45:45] Yes.
[00:45:46] Yeah.
[00:45:47] Yes.
[00:45:47] Yeah.
[00:45:48] Thank you so much for this conversation.
[00:45:50] I think this will be very, very helpful
[00:45:53] for our listeners.
[00:45:54] And before we end, speak to a little bit
[00:45:57] around what you're offering right now
[00:45:58] and how people can find you.
[00:46:00] Yes.
[00:46:01] So people can find me on drmichaeldow.com,
[00:46:05] not to be confused with drmichedow.com,
[00:46:08] who's another psychologist who's not me.
[00:46:13] Or you can email me at michaelmdow at gmail.com.
[00:46:16] I can, I do health coaching with people
[00:46:21] all around the country and even around the world.
[00:46:24] And then one of my passions, as you know, Grace,
[00:46:27] is creating community and bringing people together.
[00:46:30] So I do have, I have our consult group
[00:46:35] and I'm trying to start another one as well.
[00:46:38] Anyone, and this is open to health coaches,
[00:46:40] health professionals, anybody working
[00:46:42] in the neuroplastic symptom space
[00:46:45] who's wanting some more support
[00:46:47] and consultation and peer connection.
[00:46:52] This work can be a little bit lonely as a practitioner.
[00:46:56] You can sort of feel like you don't have colleagues.
[00:46:59] And I think it's so, there's so much synergy
[00:47:01] in sharing resources and talking with each other.
[00:47:04] So that's another, I welcome people
[00:47:06] to contact me for that.
[00:47:09] And I'll have it all linked below.
[00:47:11] And yeah, I can echo.
[00:47:12] I am in one of your consultation groups right now.
[00:47:14] It's been great to share with people
[00:47:18] and to get feedback and to just connect.
[00:47:21] Yeah.
[00:47:22] Awesome.
[00:47:23] All right, well.
[00:47:25] Okay, so much Grace, fantastic.
[00:47:27] And I just wanna say it is so great.
[00:47:29] I really, so great that you're doing this podcast
[00:47:32] really truly and just putting it out there every week
[00:47:35] or every two weeks or however often you're doing it
[00:47:38] and getting the word out there, so important.
[00:47:41] Yeah, that's the mission.
[00:47:44] Just get people thinking about it, right?
[00:47:46] Just get it out there.
[00:47:49] You don't have to suffer forever.
[00:47:51] Yeah.
[00:47:52] Yeah.
[00:47:53] Totally.
[00:47:54] Recovery, we know, we just know.
[00:47:56] We know that recovery is possible for a lot of people.
[00:48:00] We can't 100% say it's everybody,
[00:48:03] but we know, we just know, cause we've seen it.
[00:48:07] Exactly.
[00:48:08] All right.
[00:48:10] Okay.
[00:48:11] Thank you, Grace.
[00:48:11] Thank you, everyone.
[00:48:13] If this podcast means something to you,
[00:48:15] it would mean so much to me
[00:48:16] if you could do these couple things.
[00:48:18] One, go to the Heal with Grace Show page
[00:48:20] wherever you listen and tap the plus sign
[00:48:22] or click on the follow button
[00:48:24] so you don't miss an episode.
[00:48:25] It helps both of us out.
[00:48:27] While you're there, if you could give a five star review
[00:48:30] so that this podcast can reach more people,
[00:48:33] it would mean so much to me
[00:48:34] so I can continue sharing episodes
[00:48:36] that help you as well as others.
[00:48:38] Thanks for listening
[00:48:39] and I hope this brings you hope on your journey.