Healing ME/CFS through Mind-Body Tools with Chris Sykes-Popham

[00:00:00] Hey, hey, and welcome back to the Heal With Grace podcast.
[00:00:03] Y'all have a really interesting talk for you today.
[00:00:06] Chris and I could have talked for hours as the healing journey, the mind-body world,
[00:00:11] some of the most important tools that really helped him and I
[00:00:16] heal and get out of bed off the couch and really get back into life.
[00:00:20] Chris Sykes Popham is a former Royal Marines commando and adventure seeker.
[00:00:24] He's skiing, paragliding, scuba, free diving and flying,
[00:00:27] and had been doing all of this before he developed ME-CFS and became housebound and unable to work.
[00:00:34] He filed the mind-body approach and mostly recovered within weeks and made a full recovery within
[00:00:39] months. He's now the founder of the FreeMe app, the app for people with ME-CFS and long COVID
[00:00:45] that's advancing the mind-body field with world firsts like the first mind-body trained AI
[00:00:50] chatbot. I'm really excited for this episode so that you can really understand not only the
[00:00:56] gravity of how much ME-CFS takes over life but then what both of him and I say in this episode of
[00:01:02] how much we're actually grateful for the journey. I know it's hard to hear sometimes if you're in
[00:01:06] the middle of it but it's very true. And last but not least I want to remind you actually
[00:01:11] of an exciting new update that I have to the mind-body healing method.
[00:01:15] I'm rolling out a few new really important ways to support you in the program that's starting
[00:01:20] in January, January 2026. We're adding on extra support, extra one-to-one sessions,
[00:01:27] and we're making it four months. And this program is designed to help you understand
[00:01:32] your nervous system, your brain response with things like chronic pain, fatigue, ME-CFS, long
[00:01:37] COVID, IC, OAB, mild toxicity, histamine reactions, migraines, all the lists you can find below
[00:01:45] in the mind-body healing method website page. And we are offering a special discount right now
[00:01:51] if you join before the end of the year. So I'd love to have you if you're interested,
[00:01:55] find the link below or DM me if you have any questions. Without further ado, enjoy.
[00:02:01] Hey there and welcome to Heal with Grace. I'm your host Grace Secker and I'm a holistic
[00:02:06] licensed therapist and nervous system coach who believes that the chronic and often unseen
[00:02:10] symptoms you're living with are a sign of something deeper going on. A sign that
[00:02:15] your nervous system needs attention. In each episode, I'll share the science behind the most
[00:02:19] common chronic health disorders plus holistic health tips using mental, physical, and spiritual
[00:02:25] practices. You'll hear what I've learned in my journey and the true stories from our trusted
[00:02:29] guests so you can feel less alone in your experience and give yourself grace no matter
[00:02:34] what you're going through. So without further ado, settle in and get cozy. It's time to
[00:02:39] Heal with Grace. Hi, Chris. Thank you so much for coming on the Heal with Grace podcast
[00:02:45] we're really excited to have you. Hey Grace, thank you very much. Nice to be here.
[00:02:49] Yeah, I would love for you to just introduce yourself, tell us about how you came to
[00:02:54] this work. I think you have a really interesting background and want to know a little bit more
[00:02:58] about that. But yeah, just tell us about who you are in this in this mind body world first.
[00:03:02] Yeah, of course. Yeah, my name's Chris and Chris X Popham. I am the founder of FreeMe
[00:03:06] and FreeMe is an app for people with ME, CFS, or long COVID really focusing on
[00:03:11] fatigue-related conditions. So yeah, good to be here. Yeah, and as well, many of us,
[00:03:17] we come to this work and helping others from our own journeys. I've heard you talk about how
[00:03:22] you were a previous Royal Marine commando and then came into a really difficult long bout of CFS,
[00:03:28] ME-CFS. So can you share with us what your life was like before and what that
[00:03:32] on point of the illness was like? Yeah, of course. You're right. I mean,
[00:03:36] it starts from here probably about 10 years ago. And yeah, that's when I was serving as a
[00:03:41] Royal Marines commando and life was busy, active, demanding. And to be honest, usually hugely
[00:03:47] rewarding. I loved my time. I think it was the first time in my life where I felt that,
[00:03:51] I tell you, I was truly passionate about, passionate about. I enjoyed it so much.
[00:03:55] And it was the first thing I think in life where I felt like everything's all going really
[00:03:59] well. And funny enough, that's also when things started to not go quite so well. But at
[00:04:04] first, my symptoms were not that bad and things were not that bad at all.
[00:04:08] The first thing I noticed was probably just, I would train hard, obviously that's part of
[00:04:12] being a Royal Marines commando. And it comes with that as a standard. And that's the first
[00:04:17] thing I noticed. I would do that and then I would pay a price for a few days. So I would train
[00:04:21] and then I would feel, I would say, oddly, oddly tight, just start to be a bit abnormal.
[00:04:26] And more so than other people. I would also struggle to get things done. Like the ability
[00:04:31] to just get through a to-do list as you would normally. And I would only even know it because
[00:04:36] I would then have good days where things would work. I would be able to get through things again
[00:04:41] and be able to do stuff. My sleep suffered a bit as well. And I think I was always,
[00:04:44] I would have a reputation. If you asked my friends back then, they would say,
[00:04:47] I'll be a person kind of obsessed with sleep. And then when I didn't get a rigid eight hours,
[00:04:52] I would be complaining to everyone that my sleep was awful, that everything was terrible.
[00:04:56] And maybe that's not the full picture. But that was it back then. I couldn't,
[00:05:00] definitely couldn't walk into my doctor's surgery and say, Hey, look, I've got ME-CFS.
[00:05:04] I was still fully functioning. And I was keeping a very demanding career down. I'm always away.
[00:05:09] I was probably way on average about six months of every year of my decade of service and did
[00:05:15] about five operational tours. And I was doing that all with those light symptoms.
[00:05:19] So I was still definitely functioning. And I left the military on a massive high. It was,
[00:05:24] as I said, very rewarding. And I left ready to kind of hit the next challenge and see what I
[00:05:29] could do in normal civilian life. And that's when things started going really wrong.
[00:05:33] It's worth almost noting, you know, what I had been through before. When I look back
[00:05:37] in my life and say, okay, well, you dress on paper, I'd been away on operations doing
[00:05:43] 20 hour work days, you know, weeks and weeks, if not months on end without having a day off.
[00:05:49] And I was capable of that. And then it was later that I was ill. And that's interesting
[00:05:54] in hindsight, maybe something we should touch on. But that's the end of the good part
[00:05:58] before things got bad.
[00:06:00] That's actually something I'm glad you noted that I was going to note it because
[00:06:03] a lot of times we hear, and I mean, honestly, when I'm assessing clients, I'm assessing,
[00:06:08] okay, what was going on at that time in your life when you develop symptoms, right?
[00:06:11] Your conceptualization, your perception was this is a wonderful life. You felt really proud
[00:06:16] to be where you are and hardworking and enjoyed it. So how do you see that time impacting
[00:06:21] your body?
[00:06:21] So I think there's a few things I think the career was hugely rewarding. And it was
[00:06:27] genuinely brilliant. And I'm incredibly grateful to it. But I look back on that period
[00:06:30] actually, with a slightly different lens now, I see a person 10 years ago that was
[00:06:36] seeking, like was always seeking something. And I think having grown up with a
[00:06:40] relatively tough childhood, I think I was always looking to be validated. And the
[00:06:44] first part of that was even just becoming a war Marines commander. I said, if I,
[00:06:48] if I can do that, if I become an officer in the war Marines, like, I don't know what
[00:06:51] it was, but it was kind of no one can say anything, you know, bad against me
[00:06:55] or something. So it was definitely related to my own identity, very strongly. And I
[00:07:00] think it was the first time I massively achieved. And I was always trying to
[00:07:04] achieve in the war Marines. I was trying to be faster, stronger, fitter, you know,
[00:07:08] you wanted, and I certainly wanted to be viewed as capable and incredible. So I
[00:07:13] look back a little bit differently and see a person always seeking. But I also
[00:07:16] think is a really interesting thing about stress there. Because sometimes
[00:07:20] you hear about the role of stress in our conditions. And sometimes they're
[00:07:23] called stress illnesses. And I think in some ways that's true. And I believe
[00:07:27] that's true now. But in some ways that term is so unhelpful. It's because I
[00:07:32] don't think it's necessarily just stress. I think stress is normal, natural.
[00:07:36] And if I look back at my time in the military, I would go through stressful
[00:07:39] events, but I would go back to places of calm. And I wouldn't know that
[00:07:43] that stress would be temporary. And stress that is temporary can be an
[00:07:48] entirely normal, natural, healthy process. It's when the stress is always
[00:07:52] there. And it's the way we're thinking that's causing the stress, meaning that
[00:07:55] it's chronic, it's never ending. So I think there's a really interesting part
[00:07:58] there about the word stress and how we use it, I think is really
[00:08:02] important. And I guess finally, the last part is what was happening when I
[00:08:07] then did get worse. So fast forward now, probably best part of the year,
[00:08:11] I've left the military. I'm now a civilian and I'm trying to make my way
[00:08:15] in civilian life. I was putting a huge amount of pressure on myself. The
[00:08:19] next big thing for me, I told myself I was setting up a business and at the
[00:08:23] time I wanted to set up a chain of gyms in London. And my gut, I think, was
[00:08:28] telling me really strongly that this is a bad idea. I needed to raise
[00:08:31] over a million pounds in capital to do this. The risk was huge. I had no
[00:08:35] business experience. And I think my gut and my body was saying, like,
[00:08:38] don't do this, don't do this. And my brain was going, no, this is just
[00:08:41] how entrepreneurs meant to feel. This is normal. And yeah, in hindsight,
[00:08:46] it was the strongest message my body could have given me. Also,
[00:08:50] that was the first thing that was going on. The second thing with the end of a
[00:08:53] five year relationship. And our third thing is me leaving the military in my
[00:08:56] identity. I think that is also an interesting thing. And I think those
[00:09:01] things combined, probably combined you not with a lot more space to think
[00:09:05] and ruminate on my health and condition, which had been slowly
[00:09:09] deteriorating, that mixture of those three or four things. And now
[00:09:13] what I find interesting. I also want to highlight that you did not
[00:09:17] mention one physical in the disease sense, physical
[00:09:22] explanation. And that's important. I mean, you come to this work, you have the
[00:09:25] app, right? So, yes, you're going to identify it in that way. But I just
[00:09:28] wanted to highlight that for people because, I mean, so much of the people
[00:09:32] listening are probably still in this middle place, maybe of, well, yeah,
[00:09:36] but I'm told it's, you know, I have these proteins, these spike proteins,
[00:09:40] or I have this in my body, or I have X, Y, and Z, right? That's creating this.
[00:09:43] And your explanation are truly, well, these life events were happening.
[00:09:47] This type of chronic stress was happening in terms of my mental load,
[00:09:51] my thinking, stress and relationships, life identity. To me,
[00:09:55] doing this work, yes, that's a perfect storm to make your body crash, right?
[00:09:58] But yeah, I think that's important distinction.
[00:10:00] It is. And this is my story after the event. So, if you'd have asked me at
[00:10:04] the time, when I was at my most ill, the complete opposite. I wouldn't have
[00:10:07] looked at a single thing going on in my brain. I was only looking at the
[00:10:10] physical, and I was looking at every single physical thing going. I was the
[00:10:15] person that was on Google every single night trying to find the answers,
[00:10:19] trying to find the solution. I was the person trying every single diet.
[00:10:23] I mean, I guess it's the next part of the story is that when I
[00:10:26] started to get bad, I think over the years, since the very start,
[00:10:29] as my health got worse, I believe I should be a high performer. It's
[00:10:33] really important to me to be, to perform really well. And I try and optimize
[00:10:37] every single element of my form. So, when my sleep got bad, I was like,
[00:10:41] okay, Google, what do I do about this? Okay, sleep hygiene. So, I need to
[00:10:45] my room entirely. I need to make sure everything's perfect. I need to have
[00:10:48] two hours cleared before I use any greens, blue screen before I go to bed.
[00:10:53] All of these things and still sleep awfully. And the worst, that's just one
[00:10:57] example. But I mean, my supplement drawer looked like a supplement shot at
[00:11:01] that time. You know, I was just everything to try and increase my
[00:11:05] performance as it felt like it was getting worse and worse and worse.
[00:11:08] And it's the same when my condition started getting really bad. That was my
[00:11:12] again, my answer. And everything in my life until that moment, I've been
[00:11:15] successful by preparing, by putting in hard work, by going the extra mile.
[00:11:20] And the only logical way I could see to do that was in physical
[00:11:24] things and, you know, in supplements and eating really well in
[00:11:27] training loads. And it just made me worse and worse and worse.
[00:11:30] Can you share a few more examples when it got really
[00:11:33] bad, what your life actually looked like at that point?
[00:11:36] Yeah, I remember when it started to get bad. I still have, I had no idea
[00:11:42] what was going on. So my whole time in the military, I definitely didn't
[00:11:44] think I had ME-CFS. And I didn't by, you know, by the severity, I
[00:11:48] don't think you would be able to classify it like that. But I still
[00:11:51] had some of those symptoms. But then when it started to get bad, I
[00:11:53] remember this kind of snapshot where I was still trying to
[00:11:58] push through and just keep like, just keep, keep going. I remember
[00:12:01] getting all my gym kit ready every night, putting it in my bag
[00:12:05] right by my door. So all I had to do was roll out, put on my
[00:12:07] shorts and my top and grab my gym bag and go out the door, go to
[00:12:10] the gym, go to work was the idea. And I'd wake up and I just, I
[00:12:14] couldn't do it. I couldn't get out. I couldn't even like a
[00:12:16] barely get dressed. Then I'd get dressed and be like,
[00:12:18] there's no way I can leave the house. And I'd just sit there
[00:12:20] on the sofa. And I can't, I still can't really describe
[00:12:24] to you what was stopping me getting out, but I could barely
[00:12:27] move. I didn't have the cognition to be able to then process
[00:12:30] anything. So I'd be like, okay, what do I need to do next? It
[00:12:32] would be the most simplest task would be impossible. I'd drag
[00:12:35] myself down to the gym. I'd lock myself in the changing room
[00:12:38] and I'd just sleep for a quarter of an hour. So I'd lock
[00:12:40] myself in the toilet and just sleep. And then eventually I'd
[00:12:42] build up the courage to go out and start my workout,
[00:12:45] give up after 10, 20 minutes, not be able to do anything.
[00:12:48] And then I would go to my workspace to go to work and
[00:12:51] I'd go and lock myself in the toilet and, and fall asleep
[00:12:55] on a, on a cold tub floor. I'd grab a towel and put that
[00:12:58] under my head and sleep for another 20 minutes, try and do
[00:13:01] an hour or two's work, then repeat that. And I'd just do
[00:13:03] that the whole day, just try and get through. And at that
[00:13:06] point, I still, I don't know what I was thinking. Didn't
[00:13:09] think I'd MECFS. I didn't know what was going on at
[00:13:11] all. I hadn't gone to see the doctor at that point.
[00:13:13] And then it got worse and worse. And I obviously
[00:13:15] started going to see the doctor going through
[00:13:18] endless tests. By this point, I was really
[00:13:20] housebound. So I remember another snapshot. I'd
[00:13:23] try and get outside every day to try and get a tiny bit of
[00:13:26] sunlight. And I remember one day it got to like 6pm and I was
[00:13:29] like, well, I should probably go out before the sun goes
[00:13:31] down and try to just walk around literally the block of
[00:13:34] houses. So about, you know, two, 300 meters and going out
[00:13:37] and then struggling so much and then getting so scared
[00:13:40] that I wouldn't be able to make it home. And it just
[00:13:42] like a contrast. I've gone from training six, seven
[00:13:45] times a week, passing pretty hard physical tests
[00:13:48] in the military and training every single day. And now
[00:13:51] I couldn't walk 300 meters and then getting back to the
[00:13:53] house and be like, I'm not sure I can get up these steps.
[00:13:55] And so I was now housebound at this point. I'd obviously
[00:13:58] given up training. I had given up all work. So, you
[00:14:01] know, on paper my stress was gone down to zero. I wasn't
[00:14:04] doing anything. I was just literally sat around my
[00:14:07] house and I was going to the doctor endlessly. I
[00:14:09] think I was lucky if he thought I was making
[00:14:11] it up or if he, you know, thought anything like
[00:14:13] that, he didn't show it. But there was also very
[00:14:15] little he could do. He just did an endless blood test.
[00:14:17] And occasionally some of my value would come out a
[00:14:19] little bit out of tiltillum. My liver was a tiny bit
[00:14:23] off and it'd be like, oh, do you know what? It's kind of
[00:14:24] edge of normal, let's go and get it checked and have an
[00:14:26] ultrasound. My cortisol levels were slightly low as
[00:14:29] again as you'd expect and many people find and so I
[00:14:32] had loads of follow-up tests but they all came
[00:14:35] back negative. And just after, I don't know, 10,
[00:14:38] 15 appointments and I don't know how many rounds
[00:14:41] of blood tests and extra panels looking at
[00:14:43] that stuff. He said, the only thing we can do
[00:14:45] is transfer you to a fatigue clinic.
[00:14:48] That had to be hard to hear.
[00:14:49] It's one of the hardest moments in your life, I
[00:14:52] think. But I think it's also a double-edged sword.
[00:14:55] On one hand, you have validation. I have this
[00:14:58] thing. I thought, okay, I have MUCFS. So I could
[00:15:00] tell my friends and family be like, no, look, I've
[00:15:02] got this thing. It comes with fatigue. It comes
[00:15:04] with brain fog. And so I felt validated for about
[00:15:07] a week or two. And then I felt the worst
[00:15:11] feeling I'd ever felt in my life. I felt
[00:15:13] that my life as I knew it was over. I mean,
[00:15:16] I didn't even touch on it. But outside of when
[00:15:18] I wasn't doing military things, I'm an active
[00:15:21] person. I was always skiing, skydiving,
[00:15:24] paragliding, scuba diving. I used to fly small
[00:15:27] planes. But I mean, skiing was my favorite
[00:15:29] thing. And I was just through my head, I was
[00:15:30] just going, never going skiing again. I'm not
[00:15:32] sure if I could go and visit my family, move
[00:15:35] around the country, like drive anywhere. I
[00:15:37] didn't feel safe driving. And so, yeah, a
[00:15:39] little bit of validation and a whole lot of
[00:15:42] horrendous, horrendous thoughts, considering
[00:15:45] my prognosis. It's very true where sometimes
[00:15:47] all we want is a diagnosis. We want a label
[00:15:49] so bad to identify it to figure out what it
[00:15:52] is. And people search forever for that. But
[00:15:54] then also it ends up just being this
[00:15:56] syndrome that there's not much for it. It
[00:15:59] just is what it is, right? And that just
[00:16:01] that's all you do. Yeah, there's a lot of
[00:16:03] the labels and the diagnosis we get
[00:16:06] given are hugely important, aren't they?
[00:16:08] Because what they mean for you directly
[00:16:11] affects your nervous to my belief. You
[00:16:13] know, if you tell somebody they have a
[00:16:14] condition, they are going to be stuck with
[00:16:16] for life that has an incredibly low
[00:16:18] quality of life and that there's almost
[00:16:21] no chance of recovery. That is, that cannot
[00:16:24] not affect the nervous system and in
[00:16:26] turn actually worsen your physical
[00:16:28] experience of your condition. I've
[00:16:29] actually talked about this a little bit
[00:16:31] in terms of other types of diagnoses
[00:16:32] like mental health diagnoses because
[00:16:34] I have a little different perspective on
[00:16:35] it similarly, because I think when you
[00:16:36] give someone this, I was given one at
[00:16:38] 13 years old, like depression, that's
[00:16:40] just your brain, you're going to have
[00:16:41] that forever. I became way more depressed,
[00:16:43] way more suicidal. Yeah. And I think it's
[00:16:46] the same thing, it just becomes this
[00:16:48] then you're hopeless and what's the
[00:16:50] point in a way? Yeah. I mean, I don't
[00:16:53] envy the task of any health
[00:16:55] professional because you've got to
[00:16:57] validate the experiences is one of the
[00:16:59] most horrendous things going. So you've
[00:17:01] got to validate that but it's a tough
[00:17:03] tough call and it's a tough moment.
[00:17:05] It doesn't matter whether you get an
[00:17:06] official diagnosis or not, but the
[00:17:07] point when you realize you have that
[00:17:09] condition or you decide you have that
[00:17:11] condition is huge. Yeah. Okay, so then
[00:17:15] what was the point from there that you
[00:17:18] found something that work you found
[00:17:20] to my body or what did you find
[00:17:21] actually from there? So I actually
[00:17:23] found another app which is the
[00:17:25] start of the story of Freemey, but I
[00:17:27] found the curable app which is designed
[00:17:28] for people with chronic pain. Yeah.
[00:17:30] And curable is brilliant for that.
[00:17:32] And I'd actually found a couple of
[00:17:34] other things that might have
[00:17:36] planted seeds, but that was the
[00:17:38] first thing. I'd been going
[00:17:40] through this phase of literally
[00:17:42] of trying everything, giving up like
[00:17:45] you know, I mean in fairness to some of
[00:17:46] those diets maybe they would have
[00:17:47] worked because I can't even tell you
[00:17:50] because I would kind of eat something
[00:17:51] and be like right I need to cut out
[00:17:52] gluten whatever it was that day or
[00:17:53] that week. Then like two days later
[00:17:55] I'd be like yeah no it wasn't that.
[00:17:57] I'd crash again and be like well
[00:17:58] that didn't work. And so I didn't
[00:18:00] you know I didn't even really give
[00:18:01] them much thought and I was in that
[00:18:03] place where I was at my lowest
[00:18:04] step and I think I was ready and
[00:18:06] open to receive anything. But I
[00:18:08] still think I think I had some
[00:18:09] challenges. So I saw these
[00:18:11] adverts that said like people have
[00:18:13] been using this for CFS or something
[00:18:15] and at the same time I think a friend
[00:18:16] had mentioned it and
[00:18:18] talked about it. But you can imagine
[00:18:20] kind of what was going through my
[00:18:21] head. I definitely had and it was
[00:18:23] roughly sure it was like a few days
[00:18:24] this period of kind of
[00:18:26] of deep skepticism. And in fact I
[00:18:28] didn't think it was hugely
[00:18:30] against it but I wanted to know
[00:18:32] that it was true and you go
[00:18:33] through that journey don't you. The
[00:18:34] first thing it's it's saying is
[00:18:36] that what's going on in your brain
[00:18:38] can affect your body and you're
[00:18:40] okay well come at me true and you
[00:18:41] Google it and you're like well yeah
[00:18:43] obviously you know we know that we
[00:18:45] get goosebumps when we watch the
[00:18:47] Titanic. We don't think we see
[00:18:49] and salivate before even
[00:18:50] eat a burger I know I do. So I'm
[00:18:52] like okay yeah cool my brain affect
[00:18:54] my body. You know thanks it's a
[00:18:55] bit of a leap from goosebumps to
[00:18:57] not being able to move. And so
[00:18:59] you're like okay cool and then you
[00:19:01] start to learn about the nervous
[00:19:02] system. And I remember I was
[00:19:04] still I said in that Google phase and
[00:19:05] I would just Google everything. I'd be
[00:19:07] like can a dysregulated nervous
[00:19:09] system contribute towards this
[00:19:11] symptom. They'd be like yes it can.
[00:19:13] Like can it contribute towards this
[00:19:15] symptom. Yes it can. And I was just
[00:19:17] going symptom by symptom by symptom.
[00:19:18] Okay well what about brain fog because
[00:19:20] that's nothing to do with it. What
[00:19:21] about my cold hands and feet. It's
[00:19:23] a really random one but I always
[00:19:24] get cold hands and feet ever since
[00:19:26] I've been ill even if I'm in the
[00:19:28] middle of the summer in a hot room.
[00:19:29] What about this constant low level
[00:19:31] cold I've got. And you're like
[00:19:32] yeah of course it can but that's
[00:19:33] its job to do all these things. That's
[00:19:35] its job to control the whole body.
[00:19:38] Like that's that's what it's designed
[00:19:39] for. And so within a number of days
[00:19:42] my skepticism was decreasing but it
[00:19:43] was also because my I noticed the
[00:19:46] effects super super quickly. I wouldn't
[00:19:49] have admitted at the time I had no
[00:19:50] idea what fear was and when people
[00:19:52] talked about responding with fear I
[00:19:54] was like I'm not scared you know
[00:19:56] and I but I don't think I knew
[00:19:57] what any of my emotions were. So I
[00:19:59] had no idea but I was the
[00:20:00] definition of responding with fear
[00:20:01] as I was getting worse and worse
[00:20:03] every time a crash would come on you
[00:20:05] feel awful don't you feel terrible and
[00:20:08] because I was getting worse and worse
[00:20:09] and worse every time one come on I'd be
[00:20:10] like well is this my new baseline like
[00:20:12] how many days am I gonna be out for
[00:20:13] what does this mean now like last time
[00:20:15] I couldn't I couldn't move and barely
[00:20:17] get to my sofa so what's this one
[00:20:18] gonna be like. And I was responding
[00:20:20] with so much fear I was
[00:20:22] catastrophizing every single time
[00:20:24] and I didn't realize with it I
[00:20:25] realized I was doing it and this app
[00:20:27] was telling me these things and I
[00:20:28] was like no that's not me but
[00:20:30] yeah I'll keep open minded and then
[00:20:32] a few hours later or you know I'll be
[00:20:33] sat on the sofa or trying to cook a meal
[00:20:35] or something I'd be like you know maybe
[00:20:36] I am actually responding with fear
[00:20:39] and that one for me like how I
[00:20:40] responded to my symptoms was huge
[00:20:43] and some things take me a lot
[00:20:45] longer to kind of rewire my brain
[00:20:47] and come around to a new way of
[00:20:48] thinking in a new way that's
[00:20:49] more positive or helpful to me but
[00:20:51] that one was super quick something in
[00:20:53] my brain decided that if actually if
[00:20:55] I didn't respond with fear if I
[00:20:57] didn't catastrophize and was able to
[00:20:58] stay relatively calm if I was able to
[00:21:00] meet them with my symptoms with
[00:21:02] curiosity if I was able to accept
[00:21:04] them a little bit and just say oh yeah
[00:21:06] maybe they'll get worse but maybe they'll
[00:21:07] also get better than they
[00:21:10] yo-yoing like the up and down
[00:21:12] pretty much stops straight away and
[00:21:14] that was the evidence I needed to
[00:21:16] keep going it's so interesting what
[00:21:18] makes that shift for people the fear
[00:21:20] is huge one I mean yeah symptoms
[00:21:24] will continue to persist if we keep
[00:21:25] having that fear your fight
[00:21:27] frustration right yeah why do you
[00:21:30] think it was that for you did you
[00:21:32] recognize learning to work with the
[00:21:33] fear and symptoms decreased or it was
[00:21:36] just a light bulb why do I think it
[00:21:38] was that one that I noticed or why do
[00:21:39] you think I had that one or why was
[00:21:41] it that recognizing fear increased
[00:21:43] your symptoms was the shift for you
[00:21:45] to kind of I'm guessing you didn't
[00:21:47] say this word but kind of buy in and
[00:21:49] keep you doing this work I mean the
[00:21:50] first thing was because that making
[00:21:52] that shift got me honestly to like
[00:21:54] 78 percent capacity like it was
[00:21:57] instant evidence it was like okay if you
[00:21:59] study 200 people who have recovered
[00:22:01] they all have nine percent and share
[00:22:03] the same story in different elements
[00:22:05] so mine came in that particular order
[00:22:06] and we know for other people it's
[00:22:07] other the other way around but very
[00:22:09] much for me it was my immediate kind
[00:22:11] of response to my symptoms got me a
[00:22:13] huge amount and then afterwards I went
[00:22:15] away and did all the other parts
[00:22:16] that we would know and recognize as
[00:22:18] part of so many of these recovery
[00:22:20] stories you know the harder work on
[00:22:22] maybe considering my past and my
[00:22:24] childhood in different lights how I
[00:22:27] process emotions I couldn't have told you
[00:22:29] probably that anything about emotions
[00:22:31] and if certainly I was certainly
[00:22:33] expressing my emotions and aged 38 you
[00:22:36] know I am I've now learned a different
[00:22:38] way you mentioned identity earlier
[00:22:40] around you recognize probably that
[00:22:42] leaving the military I mean of course
[00:22:44] your identity was wrapped up in that
[00:22:46] and we know so much that this work
[00:22:48] makes us question our identity from
[00:22:49] so many different angles
[00:22:51] so where did that fit into your
[00:22:53] journey did that come a little bit
[00:22:55] later did you recognize that early on
[00:22:57] I think when you leave the military
[00:22:58] people tell you this people say you know
[00:23:00] by the way it can be quite tough and
[00:23:02] they can't always put a finger on why
[00:23:03] and part of the reason I wanted to
[00:23:05] leave the military was for that
[00:23:06] reasons that my identity I didn't want
[00:23:08] to always be I didn't I think I had
[00:23:11] a healthy recognition
[00:23:12] relatively early on actually that it
[00:23:13] might not be a good thing to have
[00:23:15] your identity wrapped to a single
[00:23:17] thing but I think that was because it
[00:23:19] being the first thing in my life
[00:23:21] where I truly felt fulfilled something
[00:23:23] I felt good at that wasn't school for
[00:23:25] me and I think I was at a childhood
[00:23:27] where I was dysregulated most of the
[00:23:29] time I wasn't really interested in
[00:23:30] school I think I had some of the
[00:23:32] capacity to be good but I don't think
[00:23:33] I was interested in being good
[00:23:35] and so the military gave me a really
[00:23:37] strong identity which is brilliant in
[00:23:39] some ways but being linked to it
[00:23:41] being linked to it makes it really
[00:23:43] hard when you suddenly don't have it
[00:23:45] when you someone asks what you do
[00:23:46] and you go I am Chris I sit at home
[00:23:48] all day and that's a tough part a
[00:23:51] part that's related and interesting
[00:23:52] is when you tell people you have
[00:23:54] ME-CFS it's a hard thing to say to
[00:23:57] people and you're wondering at least I
[00:23:59] was what does this person think of me
[00:24:01] and I was somebody who had always had a
[00:24:04] reputation for doing huge amounts of
[00:24:06] being huge amounts of fitness stuff and
[00:24:08] trying to be very fit and I think to
[00:24:10] give myself a credit I was you know
[00:24:11] pretty fit for the average person in
[00:24:14] society and so I was hugely helped by
[00:24:17] that I think I had it in some ways
[00:24:19] easier people knew that I had tested
[00:24:21] myself and always wanted to be tested
[00:24:23] most you always wanted to do the hardest
[00:24:24] courses
[00:24:25] the hardest challenges going and yet I
[00:24:27] still found it difficult telling people
[00:24:29] I had this condition where I think there's
[00:24:31] a lot of stigma around it so I can't
[00:24:33] begin to imagine what it's like going
[00:24:36] through that and not having those
[00:24:38] things and it sounds crazy to say
[00:24:40] but there's a sex thing in there as
[00:24:42] well isn't there like gender thin
[00:24:43] there's so many things wrapped up in
[00:24:44] it and if I was on the luckiest end
[00:24:46] of the spectrum I can't imagine what
[00:24:48] it would be like to be on the
[00:24:49] unluckiest end of the spectrum it was
[00:24:51] tough as enough as it is it
[00:24:53] yeah I mean you completely went from
[00:24:54] like you said not only just very
[00:24:56] capable but highly capable human
[00:24:59] being in many different ways probably
[00:25:01] the way that you approach life
[00:25:03] your fitness your training everything
[00:25:05] that you did in the military to yeah
[00:25:07] not being able to move to the couch
[00:25:09] that's huge that's a big drastic
[00:25:11] change in day-to-day functioning
[00:25:13] and so I can only imagine just what
[00:25:15] is this right like what is happening
[00:25:17] and then of course of course the fear
[00:25:20] of well how are people looking at me
[00:25:22] especially if you identified with being
[00:25:23] that person being that athlete being
[00:25:25] that person in life that is really
[00:25:27] probably good at what you do yeah
[00:25:29] there's so much wrapped up in that
[00:25:31] yeah there's a huge amount wrapped up
[00:25:32] in it from a part of that is
[00:25:34] interesting is what got me to be
[00:25:37] those things you said in first
[00:25:38] like it was kind of overachieving
[00:25:41] perfectionist personality type
[00:25:43] and somebody who as I said was always
[00:25:45] seeking and maybe trying to prove
[00:25:46] something to themselves or others
[00:25:48] and when you try and take those
[00:25:50] approaches that had in some ways
[00:25:52] allowed me to be very successful
[00:25:54] and then applied it to be being ill
[00:25:56] it's the worst combination going
[00:25:58] and I'm sure we must see that
[00:26:00] and I'm sure you must see that
[00:26:01] hugely in your coaching
[00:26:03] do you think there is a personality
[00:26:05] type for these try these types of
[00:26:06] conditions yes very much so
[00:26:09] I do too very similar people and
[00:26:11] everyone my group program I mean we
[00:26:12] resonate all the time with the same
[00:26:14] characteristics that you're
[00:26:15] describing obviously shows up in
[00:26:17] different ways for different people
[00:26:18] but then also point this out and then
[00:26:20] ask you how you saw it for yourself
[00:26:22] that then it starts to apply to our
[00:26:24] healing we approach our healing and
[00:26:25] our recovery from this sense of
[00:26:27] achieving and making it perfect and
[00:26:29] having to do all the right things
[00:26:30] and if we don't we failed or we
[00:26:32] missed something like gluten or if
[00:26:34] you're in my body work well okay
[00:26:35] I didn't you know I didn't
[00:26:37] express my emotions enough or I
[00:26:38] didn't meditate enough or I didn't
[00:26:40] you know that happens then too
[00:26:43] yeah and yeah instead in the app we
[00:26:46] see it through someone who will sign
[00:26:48] up and do the entire program like in
[00:26:50] a week or something and you're just
[00:26:51] like no that's it's not quite the
[00:26:53] point you know you want to do
[00:26:55] find out about concept learn about
[00:26:57] it think about it you know it takes
[00:26:59] some people like a week or two weeks
[00:27:01] to become remotely aware of these
[00:27:03] things and then start to apply
[00:27:04] gradual changes and if you apply a
[00:27:06] new concept every 10 minutes and try
[00:27:08] and implement it so I've done it I've
[00:27:09] done the whole done the whole
[00:27:10] program not quite that's not quite
[00:27:12] the way forward I couldn't agree more
[00:27:14] just you just have to speak to
[00:27:16] enough people with these conditions to
[00:27:18] see those traits over and over again
[00:27:20] how long would you say we know
[00:27:23] recovery is an always linear so one I
[00:27:25] kind of want to know what your journey
[00:27:27] has been with recovery and how long
[00:27:29] on average or estimate that's been
[00:27:32] yeah so I was rather lucky at that
[00:27:34] shift for me helped me so much and
[00:27:36] so within a few weeks two to three
[00:27:38] weeks I was up at like 80 percent
[00:27:40] and up and functioning so well even
[00:27:43] though I still got light symptoms at
[00:27:44] that point I wasn't didn't have the
[00:27:45] stream up and down and my fear had
[00:27:48] subsided hugely because that change
[00:27:51] was so I'd gone from months and months
[00:27:53] and months of being terrible to
[00:27:54] suddenly being able to do things
[00:27:55] again it took time for that
[00:27:57] normalize it took and so several more
[00:27:59] weeks and months for that to
[00:28:01] normalize and then I also I mean
[00:28:02] having had all that proven evidence
[00:28:05] and then sorry you enter this world
[00:28:06] don't you and then you realize oh
[00:28:08] actually this is the thing people do
[00:28:10] there are hundreds of people who have
[00:28:11] recovered and I had no idea it was only
[00:28:13] after recovered that I found one of my
[00:28:15] favorite resources is Rayleigh Nagel's
[00:28:17] YouTube channel because she now has
[00:28:18] over 250 people and I found that
[00:28:21] after I recovered I was like what
[00:28:22] is hundreds of people who recovered
[00:28:25] if I think it even heard of it before
[00:28:27] but I hadn't really I don't know but
[00:28:29] two and two together and then yeah
[00:28:30] you realize suddenly that there are
[00:28:32] hundreds of people is a thing that
[00:28:33] happens and that combined with the
[00:28:35] progress I'd had meant that I had
[00:28:37] the motivation to then do the rest
[00:28:38] of work and for me I said that was
[00:28:40] stuff around okay well more into the
[00:28:42] personality types like which ones are
[00:28:45] affecting me which ones am I and which
[00:28:46] ones aren't I it was a a different
[00:28:49] look at my career and everything that
[00:28:50] led up to my illness it was a different
[00:28:52] look at my childhood before then I
[00:28:54] would have just told you well yeah I
[00:28:55] had a you know slightly tough
[00:28:56] childhood but I'm really grateful for it
[00:28:58] and and it you know maybe who I am
[00:29:00] today and etc etc and we don't need
[00:29:02] to apply deeply unhelpful labels
[00:29:04] that are overly exaggerated anyway
[00:29:06] but we also need to downplay what
[00:29:07] been through and it was that exercise
[00:29:09] which I can't remember is it Dave Clark
[00:29:11] we talked about it but where you write
[00:29:13] down all the things that you went
[00:29:15] through that you might not want your
[00:29:17] own child to go through and when you
[00:29:19] write it down like that that to me
[00:29:21] was pretty illuminating I was like
[00:29:23] okay like I've actually got quite a long
[00:29:25] list so reevaluate my childhood was
[00:29:27] them was useful I think it explained
[00:29:30] a lot about my next 20 years funnily
[00:29:32] enough and I touched on it before but
[00:29:34] emotional suppression you know it's not
[00:29:36] something that's taught when you're
[00:29:38] training to become a Royal Marines
[00:29:39] Mando it's not something that's typically
[00:29:41] courage and so in my 30s I had to
[00:29:44] reading I remember reading that you feel
[00:29:47] emotions in your body and I was like
[00:29:48] well what do you want about like I've
[00:29:50] never felt a single emotion in my
[00:29:52] body I was like how can that like
[00:29:54] help my nervous system and it's one of
[00:29:57] the most studied areas we have isn't
[00:29:59] it we know very well the suppressing
[00:30:01] emotion depression and repression both
[00:30:03] keep the nervous system in a state of
[00:30:05] flight so that was usually I had to
[00:30:07] literally learn to feel emotional come on
[00:30:09] recognize it and be like well I think
[00:30:11] I'm experiencing an emotion what is it
[00:30:13] what's it telling me to do that was
[00:30:15] that was useful as well and so over the
[00:30:17] next few months I don't have a definitive
[00:30:19] point but you know I don't know by
[00:30:21] five six months I was made to jump
[00:30:23] from 80 to 100% and I've been
[00:30:25] symptom-free since you know I'm
[00:30:27] fully recovered and people have
[00:30:30] different views on it but I personally
[00:30:31] believe it's a really good thing to
[00:30:33] go out and test yourself occasionally
[00:30:35] I am I like getting out there and
[00:30:37] living my active life and everything I
[00:30:39] do is like a little piece on my evidence
[00:30:41] list still it might just be in my head
[00:30:42] but I'm like okay well if I can do a
[00:30:45] week of like walking up mountains on
[00:30:46] skis or whatever or if I can run a
[00:30:48] half marathon in a pretty good time
[00:30:49] and then wake up the next day and
[00:30:51] have no symptoms like I'm gonna
[00:30:52] I'm gonna bank that and be like okay
[00:30:54] so I'm actually okay like I'm in a
[00:30:55] good place if you've been through
[00:30:57] the experience we've been through
[00:30:58] when cold starts coming on or you
[00:31:00] experience normal tiredness
[00:31:02] your thought is going to come up and
[00:31:03] be like what if you've got this new
[00:31:05] mysterious illness or what if you're
[00:31:06] going to go back the next day and your
[00:31:08] brain does that to you doesn't it and
[00:31:09] you'd be like okay well I've actually
[00:31:11] got this log of 100 things that I've
[00:31:13] done since and I know I'm fully
[00:31:14] recovered but that that moment is
[00:31:16] there when you realize you're going to
[00:31:17] be able to recover again and get
[00:31:19] your life back
[00:31:20] that's also pretty huge it's something
[00:31:22] you can grab on to there's hope
[00:31:24] there there's the evidence there
[00:31:25] that I mean it speaks just volume
[00:31:29] I'm actually similar where I didn't
[00:31:31] know much about the recovery world
[00:31:33] until I was actually more in recovery
[00:31:35] wasn't until I started really doing it
[00:31:37] professionally that I was like oh
[00:31:38] there's all these resources there's
[00:31:40] podcast, YouTube's and yeah
[00:31:42] what why is that there's something
[00:31:44] about the communities you hang around
[00:31:46] it isn't that yeah yeah I mean it's
[00:31:48] just once you're in it I forget how
[00:31:51] much I'm in it now right it just is
[00:31:53] my life it's normal but if you're
[00:31:55] not there's so much else out there
[00:31:58] to go into in terms of the
[00:32:00] physical realm and clean non-toxic
[00:32:02] world and everything and functional
[00:32:03] world to to try and help you and
[00:32:05] that's so much more rampant and this is
[00:32:07] a tiny little corner of our world
[00:32:10] we're making it bigger we're trying to
[00:32:11] make it bigger but it's small
[00:32:13] that's literally the work you're
[00:32:14] doing and it's it's incredible and
[00:32:16] that's all it takes is we just have
[00:32:18] to be hanging around in the right
[00:32:20] places
[00:32:20] I think we really we need to see
[00:32:22] those in like when we're not
[00:32:23] recovered we need to see recovery
[00:32:25] stories that was another kind of
[00:32:26] clicking moment like super early on
[00:32:29] I then started seeing these recovery
[00:32:31] stories and just noticing the trend
[00:32:33] like if anyone out there were to take
[00:32:35] a hundred recovery stories which we
[00:32:37] now have you know there are tons of
[00:32:38] websites out there
[00:32:39] specifically people for MECFS and
[00:32:41] Covid there's obviously thousands of
[00:32:43] chronic pain
[00:32:44] there's a channel that's like yours
[00:32:45] there's so many amazing resources
[00:32:47] you just list out a hundred and then
[00:32:49] go what are the commonalities like
[00:32:50] what are these people all doing
[00:32:51] and you're like okay
[00:32:52] this is this is the answer
[00:32:54] but I was the same like you come
[00:32:55] at it afterwards you come at it
[00:32:56] when you are recovered so
[00:32:57] maybe this much changed that
[00:32:59] yeah
[00:33:00] Hey friends it's Grace
[00:33:01] if you feel like you've been doing
[00:33:03] all of the treatment protocols
[00:33:04] and all the different modalities to
[00:33:06] heal and you're still not feeling
[00:33:07] better and it's just kind of managing
[00:33:09] things
[00:33:10] I'm here to talk to you for a second
[00:33:12] so
[00:33:13] it's not because you're doing it wrong
[00:33:15] or you just haven't found the answer
[00:33:16] yet
[00:33:16] it's truly because your nervous system
[00:33:19] and brain are still operating in
[00:33:20] protection mode
[00:33:22] and your nervous system and brain
[00:33:24] when it perceives danger
[00:33:26] physical or emotional danger
[00:33:28] and even just ongoing stress
[00:33:29] it keeps your body on high alert
[00:33:31] so none of those treatment modalities
[00:33:33] are actually going to stick or work
[00:33:35] until you work with the bottom line
[00:33:37] which is your brain and nervous system
[00:33:39] because when you're in the danger mode
[00:33:41] state your digestion
[00:33:42] immune system hormones
[00:33:43] and pain signals all get affected
[00:33:45] it's like trying to heal
[00:33:47] while the alarm bells are still ringing
[00:33:49] in the background
[00:33:51] and that is why so many people get stuck
[00:33:53] you can do all of the treatment
[00:33:54] things you want
[00:33:55] but if your system isn't regulated
[00:33:57] your body can't access its natural healing state
[00:34:01] this is exactly why I created
[00:34:04] my four month signature program
[00:34:06] the mind body healing method
[00:34:07] it's a step by step process
[00:34:09] that helps you calm your system
[00:34:11] rewire old stress patterns
[00:34:12] and retrain your brain to feel safe again
[00:34:15] so you can finally start to heal
[00:34:16] for good chronic pain and illness
[00:34:19] this is a true recovery program
[00:34:20] not just management
[00:34:22] you'll get guided lessons
[00:34:23] nervous system practices
[00:34:25] live support
[00:34:26] individual and group support
[00:34:27] and a community that actually understands
[00:34:30] what you're going through
[00:34:31] enrollment is now open
[00:34:33] so you can find the link below
[00:34:34] in the show notes
[00:34:36] or go to
[00:34:37] elevatetherapywellness.com
[00:34:39] slash mind body healing method
[00:34:41] because until your brain and body feel safe
[00:34:43] no protocol or treatment plan
[00:34:45] will actually work
[00:34:47] when your nervous system works
[00:34:49] everything starts to heal
[00:34:51] because working with fear
[00:34:53] was so transformational for you
[00:34:55] can you identify a couple different things
[00:34:57] you did to work with fear
[00:34:59] that helps you gain those first week
[00:35:01] or three moments of confidence that
[00:35:03] oh wait this helps
[00:35:04] I'm feeling better
[00:35:05] what did you do
[00:35:06] yeah definitely
[00:35:07] I mean the first thing is simple
[00:35:08] it's noticing it
[00:35:09] it's noticing and recognizing
[00:35:11] and I say that because
[00:35:12] when I was first told
[00:35:13] oh you're responding with fear
[00:35:14] I'll be like what are you on about
[00:35:15] like I didn't recognize it myself
[00:35:17] these things become so normalized
[00:35:19] they've always been there
[00:35:20] it's like a fish swimming in water
[00:35:22] it doesn't know it's swimming in water
[00:35:23] the water has just always been there
[00:35:24] it's these patterns that are running
[00:35:26] on autopilot
[00:35:27] they're constantly there
[00:35:28] and it's they're not providing you
[00:35:30] with one solid massive notable
[00:35:31] dosage of stress
[00:35:33] it's like these constant micro doses
[00:35:35] doses of stress it's causing
[00:35:36] and so just noticing
[00:35:38] that you're responding with fear
[00:35:39] like when the symptoms are coming on
[00:35:41] that's the really the the key part
[00:35:42] when you notice a symptom
[00:35:44] or you notice has got worse
[00:35:45] the thoughts that are coming up in your head
[00:35:47] what does your internal narrative
[00:35:49] sound like
[00:35:49] that's huge
[00:35:50] because then you're catching it
[00:35:51] and honestly I think that's the hardest part
[00:35:53] of the battle
[00:35:54] the next is like okay what do you do
[00:35:56] and what did I do that was
[00:35:57] that helped me
[00:35:58] I firstly just had this recognition
[00:35:59] that if I don't respond with fear
[00:36:02] I can actually reduce and change
[00:36:05] what's going to happen next
[00:36:06] I can actually reduce physical symptoms
[00:36:08] and being honest and direct with people
[00:36:10] that's what you can do
[00:36:11] there's lots of people telling you
[00:36:11] that you can't change the way
[00:36:13] you know crash is going to happen
[00:36:14] that's not true
[00:36:15] like our nervous system can control
[00:36:17] every aspect of the body
[00:36:19] there is no condition which it cannot
[00:36:20] change your experience
[00:36:21] and ours is one of the most ways
[00:36:23] in which you can most powerfully change it
[00:36:24] so use that knowledge I think
[00:36:26] or that having that knowledge
[00:36:27] really help me say okay well
[00:36:29] if I don't respond with fear
[00:36:30] this seems to work with that
[00:36:31] the next I think there's some probably
[00:36:32] some like direct tools you can use
[00:36:34] I found I don't know about you
[00:36:35] but I found almost sitting
[00:36:37] mindfully with my symptoms
[00:36:39] so if I felt like if I constantly
[00:36:41] was going into spiral panic
[00:36:42] and I recognize it
[00:36:43] I would stop and I would sit on the sofa
[00:36:45] and I'd do nothing other
[00:36:46] than just focusing on the
[00:36:48] almost like somatic tracking
[00:36:49] exactly on my symptoms
[00:36:51] I'd be like what do these really feel
[00:36:53] like really get curious about them
[00:36:54] and doing that so you're paying attention
[00:36:57] to them and then the normal
[00:36:58] what would normally then happen
[00:36:59] if I do that subconsciously
[00:37:00] I'd be like oh god
[00:37:01] here's this new symptom
[00:37:02] like what does this mean
[00:37:04] like this is going to end badly for me
[00:37:06] how long how bad's this crash going to be
[00:37:08] and by doing it mindfully
[00:37:09] by deliberately paying attention to the symptom
[00:37:10] and literally doing nothing else
[00:37:12] I can sit there and focusing on it
[00:37:13] I'd be like here's the symptom
[00:37:15] it's uncomfortable but it's safe
[00:37:16] it's I'm going to allow it to be here
[00:37:18] I'm going to give it space
[00:37:19] I'm not going to try and make it go away
[00:37:20] I'm just going to watch it and observe it
[00:37:23] and do that through a lens of safety
[00:37:24] I'm now looking at a different way
[00:37:26] and those thoughts then very different
[00:37:28] and by saying I'm not going to try
[00:37:29] and get rid of it
[00:37:30] and it's not saying you don't want to
[00:37:32] improve long term is it
[00:37:33] it's saying in this moment
[00:37:35] I accept you I make space for you
[00:37:36] you're no longer fighting it
[00:37:37] so your nervous system is calm
[00:37:39] and you've switched it from kind of fear
[00:37:41] to curiosity
[00:37:42] and I would try and do that
[00:37:43] I'd be super curious
[00:37:44] but this is really interesting
[00:37:45] what does it really feel like
[00:37:47] where is it in my body
[00:37:48] where is it moving
[00:37:49] so I do that as a deliberate practice sometimes
[00:37:51] and then I would try and buy those same
[00:37:53] principles throughout the day
[00:37:54] and I would just I'd be like
[00:37:55] okay there's a symptom
[00:37:56] like oh okay there's a symptom
[00:37:57] I'll look at it for a while
[00:37:58] and then I'll go back to my normal business
[00:37:59] and I also this is an interesting one
[00:38:01] and what I'd like to ask you about
[00:38:03] I think there is a role for refocusing
[00:38:05] and by refocusing you mean symptoms come up
[00:38:07] and then you're like okay
[00:38:08] I'm now going to focus away on something else
[00:38:11] and some people might say
[00:38:12] that feels almost like they're gaslighting themselves
[00:38:14] they're ignoring their symptoms
[00:38:15] and I don't think that's necessarily
[00:38:17] what it's about
[00:38:18] for me it was not about gaslighting myself
[00:38:20] I'm not ignoring my symptoms
[00:38:21] I know they're there
[00:38:22] I can acknowledge them
[00:38:23] so be like oh sim star
[00:38:24] I symptom I acknowledge you would have
[00:38:26] I'm not I'm not like kidding myself
[00:38:28] but I also don't need to put my search
[00:38:30] light of my attention
[00:38:31] and just focus it on that symptom
[00:38:32] for the next two days
[00:38:33] and worry and panic about it
[00:38:35] I'm going to try and actually get on with my life
[00:38:36] and not I'm not again not saying
[00:38:37] about go out and run a marathon at all
[00:38:39] but doing meaningful activities for my brain
[00:38:41] so it has something to do
[00:38:42] that isn't just sat around
[00:38:43] worrying, catastrophizing, panicking about the symptoms
[00:38:46] here's a good thing
[00:38:46] we know that's a good thing
[00:38:48] so that's what I found helpful with there
[00:38:51] I completely agree with all of it
[00:38:53] I'm that person that's had all different types
[00:38:55] of neuroplastic symptoms
[00:38:56] started with pain and fatigue all things
[00:38:58] and and fatigue was the most confusing one for me
[00:39:01] because a lot of the other tools that I used
[00:39:03] for other symptoms
[00:39:04] and specifically pain didn't
[00:39:06] yield the same results
[00:39:07] and so I had to kind of look at it differently
[00:39:09] and the being with it
[00:39:11] and I like to call opening to it
[00:39:14] or inviting it in
[00:39:15] being with the fatigue
[00:39:16] with the sensations of fatigue
[00:39:18] all over the body
[00:39:19] or brain fog whatever it is
[00:39:20] not resisting it
[00:39:21] essentially like working with the resistance towards it
[00:39:24] that was a big one
[00:39:25] and then when I do like the second part of that
[00:39:28] you mentioned
[00:39:29] because we don't want to focus on it all the time
[00:39:32] right then we're giving it almost like
[00:39:34] too much focus and too much power
[00:39:35] because we know the more we look at something
[00:39:37] the more we see something
[00:39:38] the more we're always going to go towards that
[00:39:40] so
[00:39:41] once you can allow it and open to it
[00:39:43] and be with it without judgment
[00:39:46] without fear
[00:39:47] it's not perfect every time right
[00:39:48] but sometimes you can kind of feel that like
[00:39:51] yeah
[00:39:51] all right
[00:39:51] maybe it's intense
[00:39:52] but you can be with it
[00:39:53] you're really well explaining the nuance between it
[00:39:56] because in some ways I said
[00:39:57] sit there and focus on your symptom
[00:39:59] and do it through a lens of safety
[00:40:00] and then you're
[00:40:02] we're also saying
[00:40:02] and I don't focus your whole life on it
[00:40:04] but it is a little nuance
[00:40:05] and now we would you agree maybe we're both saying that we
[00:40:08] we're trying to avoid
[00:40:09] unthinkingly constantly focusing on it
[00:40:11] where it then leads to the fear
[00:40:13] the worry and the anxiety
[00:40:15] is that
[00:40:15] yeah so I call it a fight sometimes with
[00:40:18] we don't we don't realize what's happening
[00:40:20] it comes on and we're like
[00:40:21] yeah I'm gonna do this right there's the fear
[00:40:24] yeah
[00:40:25] and if we can see how we're fighting it
[00:40:27] and open to it
[00:40:29] there's more allowance for it to be there
[00:40:31] so it's not continuing to basically fight you
[00:40:33] and be like no listen to me see me
[00:40:35] can you talk to me more about allowance
[00:40:37] you said allowance and I think allowance huge as well
[00:40:40] and but I wonder if we have the same definition
[00:40:42] what does like allowing me to
[00:40:44] yeah I see allowance as
[00:40:46] seeing this
[00:40:47] symptom we'll say fatigue
[00:40:49] as it's a part of you
[00:40:51] you don't always have to be
[00:40:52] I know some people talk about
[00:40:53] try to ask it what it needs
[00:40:55] or what it's saying to you
[00:40:56] and I get sometimes that's hard
[00:40:57] don't always really get that
[00:40:59] I mean for me that was really difficult
[00:41:01] but even just seeing it as a symptom that
[00:41:03] is just wanting to be paid attention to
[00:41:05] and so we can allow it to be there
[00:41:08] doesn't mean you have to like it
[00:41:09] at all
[00:41:10] right it can suck
[00:41:11] but you're not fighting it
[00:41:13] you're not fearing it
[00:41:14] you're not pushing it away
[00:41:15] that's kind of how I feel about it
[00:41:16] yeah I think it's closely closely related
[00:41:18] to the idea of acceptance right
[00:41:20] and I think they're broadly the same thing
[00:41:22] it's they're both avoiding the fighting part
[00:41:24] when they're both stopping us
[00:41:26] fighting our condition
[00:41:28] and we see that only and I'm sure you see
[00:41:30] a huge amount in your work where
[00:41:32] people want so much to get rid of
[00:41:34] their condition
[00:41:34] find by the things with the personality traits
[00:41:37] we spoke about earlier
[00:41:38] like perfectionism overachieving
[00:41:40] so like okay to get rid of this symptom
[00:41:42] I'm going to wake up every morning
[00:41:44] and do three brain training exercises
[00:41:45] I'm going to meditate twice
[00:41:46] and then I need to see the sun
[00:41:47] and I've got all this list
[00:41:48] and I'm going to really I am going to recover
[00:41:51] it's uh how do you actually get an impression
[00:41:53] how do you speak to somebody
[00:41:54] that you see in that kind of mode
[00:41:56] that's the kind of person fighting it is
[00:41:58] that's like right okay
[00:41:59] need to recover
[00:42:01] what do you do meeting people
[00:42:02] in person working people you know
[00:42:03] or face to face
[00:42:05] yeah I do definitely see it a lot
[00:42:07] I usually talk about how
[00:42:08] it won't go perfectly
[00:42:10] it just can't it's not that simple
[00:42:12] in the way of okay you do one two and three
[00:42:14] every single day
[00:42:16] then you will get better in a week
[00:42:17] or two weeks or three weeks
[00:42:18] I mean talk to anyone on this journey
[00:42:19] that's just not how it works
[00:42:21] and often the times we do that
[00:42:23] we're actually bypassing
[00:42:25] what we really need
[00:42:26] right the same idea of okay
[00:42:28] if you're sitting there
[00:42:29] trying to pay attention to your body
[00:42:30] and feel the symptoms
[00:42:32] and you're just trying to like get through it
[00:42:34] so that it goes away
[00:42:36] it doesn't fully go away
[00:42:37] doesn't work like that
[00:42:38] because you're actually just bypassing
[00:42:39] the actual experience of being with your body
[00:42:42] and talk about it in that way too
[00:42:43] because I think that can show up
[00:42:45] yeah that's useful
[00:42:46] and also I guess links in with
[00:42:48] what we were saying about making space for it
[00:42:50] saying like I know you're not necessarily
[00:42:52] that you know that you want it there
[00:42:54] and not that you don't want to recover
[00:42:56] but here in this moment you're like
[00:42:57] I'm going to make space for you
[00:42:58] and I'm not going to fight you
[00:42:59] and I'm going to accept you
[00:43:01] exactly that's pretty key right
[00:43:03] that's pretty key
[00:43:04] and then for your third part
[00:43:05] I think that's really important to note
[00:43:07] okay so we do that
[00:43:08] be with it
[00:43:09] maybe feel a sense of presence with yourself
[00:43:12] and then also the other part
[00:43:14] that we forget to talk about a lot
[00:43:15] or I think people forget
[00:43:16] when they're in the journey
[00:43:17] because they're focused so much on the work
[00:43:19] right let me do the work
[00:43:20] that we forget it
[00:43:21] being in your life
[00:43:22] doing things you enjoy
[00:43:23] looking forward to things
[00:43:25] is so important
[00:43:26] your brain wants to
[00:43:27] we want you to keep working towards that
[00:43:29] yeah
[00:43:29] so that's a huge part too
[00:43:30] it's so huge
[00:43:31] when I learned that
[00:43:32] how the nervous system works
[00:43:33] in terms of stress
[00:43:35] enjoyment
[00:43:35] joy
[00:43:36] pleasure
[00:43:37] fulfillment
[00:43:37] are the most powerful counters
[00:43:40] we have to anything that can
[00:43:41] adversely affect the nervous system
[00:43:42] they are so good
[00:43:44] and I even the other day I heard a term
[00:43:46] have you ever heard of the word
[00:43:47] eustress
[00:43:48] eustress
[00:43:48] oh you know what I have
[00:43:49] but I kind of forgot about
[00:43:51] but I don't use it
[00:43:52] yeah
[00:43:53] I mean if I had
[00:43:53] then it was a new word to me
[00:43:55] but anyway you've heard of it
[00:43:56] but I hadn't
[00:43:57] and it means
[00:43:57] it means doesn't that the
[00:43:59] positive good stress
[00:44:00] like there's a good stress and a bad stress
[00:44:02] and almost always the eustress
[00:44:04] is stress where
[00:44:05] it's an enjoyable stress
[00:44:06] it might be type 2 fun
[00:44:08] as I call it where you enjoy it afterwards
[00:44:09] but like it's a good positive experience
[00:44:11] and it's
[00:44:12] resonance so
[00:44:13] so
[00:44:14] well with me because
[00:44:15] I remember when I was ill
[00:44:17] and I'd heard that you know stress
[00:44:19] keeps the nervous system on
[00:44:20] higher level
[00:44:21] and that's a bad thing
[00:44:22] I knew that much earlier on
[00:44:23] and so I would just go around
[00:44:24] trying to avoid stress the whole time
[00:44:26] and of course like
[00:44:27] it's impossible
[00:44:28] like you can't do it
[00:44:29] the most stressful thing
[00:44:30] you can do in the world
[00:44:31] is try and avoid all stress
[00:44:33] like it doesn't
[00:44:33] it's not there
[00:44:34] it's so it's deeply deeply
[00:44:36] unhelpful
[00:44:36] impossible and unhelpful
[00:44:38] and when I realized actually
[00:44:39] that thing you're doing
[00:44:40] that feels good
[00:44:41] and someone on the internet
[00:44:42] told you it's a bad thing
[00:44:43] but if you
[00:44:43] if you feel good doing something
[00:44:45] you don't
[00:44:45] don't get symptoms
[00:44:47] don't question it
[00:44:47] like that is a good thing
[00:44:49] to be doing
[00:44:49] if you feel genuinely fulfilled
[00:44:51] that's a really good sign
[00:44:52] that without
[00:44:53] but any sort of negative
[00:44:54] expectation
[00:44:55] and if you're not questioning
[00:44:56] you're gonna be okay
[00:44:57] it's a really good sign
[00:44:58] you will be okay
[00:44:59] and keep doing it
[00:44:59] it's gonna be a good thing for you
[00:45:01] but learning that
[00:45:03] actually it's
[00:45:03] stress is okay
[00:45:04] being amped up
[00:45:05] is being okay
[00:45:06] we're looking for the things
[00:45:07] that may be a bit unhelpful up here
[00:45:09] which constantly keep us in that state
[00:45:11] not going out
[00:45:12] and doing something
[00:45:13] that's stressful
[00:45:14] or amped you up
[00:45:15] or puts you in fight or flight
[00:45:16] with fight or flight
[00:45:17] no it's not the
[00:45:18] not the element is it
[00:45:19] it's living in it the whole time
[00:45:20] exactly that's a great distinction
[00:45:22] that we forget
[00:45:23] that people forget often right
[00:45:24] and I talk about it in terms of
[00:45:26] really what we're doing
[00:45:26] is widening your tolerance
[00:45:28] widening your window of tolerance
[00:45:29] for stress
[00:45:30] for the fighter flight
[00:45:31] right instead
[00:45:32] when we get to a sick point
[00:45:34] it's so small
[00:45:35] so much stress has built up
[00:45:36] that we can't handle anything
[00:45:38] so yeah
[00:45:39] people get stuck in that mode of
[00:45:41] avoiding all stress
[00:45:42] that's not possible
[00:45:43] do you think a lot of that
[00:45:44] when people are in that place
[00:45:47] do you think a lot of
[00:45:47] this is also about
[00:45:48] what they're predicting
[00:45:49] under their own model
[00:45:50] so maybe they're thinking
[00:45:52] if I do something that
[00:45:53] might amp me up
[00:45:54] whatever you would say
[00:45:55] you know
[00:45:55] like puts me a fight or flight
[00:45:57] then that's gonna lead to really
[00:45:58] bad things
[00:45:59] and it's part of it about
[00:46:01] replacing that with
[00:46:02] more helpful thoughts
[00:46:03] yeah definitely
[00:46:05] actually I had Vanessa Blackstone
[00:46:06] on the podcast
[00:46:07] a little bit ago
[00:46:08] we talked about predictive coding
[00:46:09] which is essential that
[00:46:10] predictive coding
[00:46:11] of predicting the things that
[00:46:12] yeah you probably once
[00:46:13] associated with a crash
[00:46:15] because it happened right after
[00:46:16] or something like that
[00:46:17] but that doesn't always mean
[00:46:19] it's going to
[00:46:19] especially when you're doing this work
[00:46:21] and breaking that association
[00:46:22] is really important
[00:46:23] I think with
[00:46:24] those associations
[00:46:25] those links
[00:46:26] are
[00:46:27] unhelpful
[00:46:28] even if they're true
[00:46:29] and I know that sounds ridiculous
[00:46:30] but imagine let's take something
[00:46:32] let's take
[00:46:33] I don't know
[00:46:33] eating a block of sugar
[00:46:34] or something
[00:46:35] a sugar cube
[00:46:36] let's say that
[00:46:36] there is a real association
[00:46:37] it does cause you to crash
[00:46:39] well even then
[00:46:40] making that association
[00:46:41] and go I just had that
[00:46:42] sugar cube
[00:46:43] therefore I'm gonna crash
[00:46:44] is still unhelpful
[00:46:45] even though it's true
[00:46:45] we do it to avoid
[00:46:47] crashing
[00:46:47] right that's why we do it
[00:46:49] knowing that it's going to
[00:46:50] create that
[00:46:51] crash
[00:46:51] and focusing on it
[00:46:52] and focusing on the negative outcome
[00:46:53] that's about to happen
[00:46:54] makes your nervous system
[00:46:55] amp up
[00:46:56] in
[00:46:56] reward
[00:46:57] in anticipation
[00:46:58] it kind of gets you
[00:46:59] ready for the fight
[00:47:00] doesn't it
[00:47:00] and so
[00:47:01] even if it's true
[00:47:02] it's not worth creating
[00:47:03] you're still trying to
[00:47:04] break those links
[00:47:05] I've been unhelpful
[00:47:06] for so many reasons
[00:47:07] we can create them
[00:47:08] that are
[00:47:09] false
[00:47:09] and they're still unhelpful
[00:47:10] helpful
[00:47:10] and we can create them
[00:47:11] that are true
[00:47:11] and they're still unhelpful
[00:47:13] exactly
[00:47:13] exactly
[00:47:14] yeah
[00:47:14] food one
[00:47:15] so common
[00:47:16] so so common
[00:47:18] yeah
[00:47:18] talk about it often on here
[00:47:19] food associations
[00:47:20] of being unhealthy
[00:47:21] you're making you crash
[00:47:22] or not
[00:47:23] making you inflamed
[00:47:24] or
[00:47:25] all the things right
[00:47:26] and
[00:47:26] yeah
[00:47:27] yeah
[00:47:27] breaking that
[00:47:28] it can be a big part of the journey
[00:47:29] I used to do it all the time
[00:47:30] I would literally eat a meal
[00:47:32] and it would have something in it
[00:47:33] I remember having a meal once
[00:47:34] that had brown rice
[00:47:35] but I should
[00:47:36] switch to brown rice
[00:47:37] it's more healthy or something
[00:47:38] and then
[00:47:39] crashed you know
[00:47:39] if the hour's late
[00:47:40] and be like
[00:47:40] it was that brown rice
[00:47:41] it was that brown rice
[00:47:42] and then just
[00:47:43] I completely avoided it
[00:47:45] you know
[00:47:45] and programming that fear
[00:47:46] I ate that thing
[00:47:47] and then
[00:47:47] it made me crash
[00:47:49] so the fear next time
[00:47:50] when I then came around
[00:47:51] to eat brown rice
[00:47:52] which
[00:47:52] was not the answer
[00:47:53] was huge
[00:47:54] it would now look back
[00:47:55] and I can just literally laugh at myself
[00:47:57] some of the associations I made
[00:47:59] were ridiculous
[00:47:59] but some of them are
[00:48:01] it's also
[00:48:02] I laugh but I should say as well
[00:48:03] it's not our fault
[00:48:04] this
[00:48:05] our brains are wired this way
[00:48:07] through
[00:48:07] many tens of thousands of years
[00:48:09] to protect us
[00:48:09] the people who've made those associations
[00:48:11] like we are now
[00:48:12] that are now unhelpful
[00:48:13] were the ones that survived
[00:48:14] they're the reason we're actually
[00:48:15] it's our ancestors
[00:48:16] so the reason we're sat there today
[00:48:18] aren't they
[00:48:18] they're the result of
[00:48:19] or we are the result of
[00:48:21] them being
[00:48:21] that cautious the person
[00:48:23] in the African Savannah
[00:48:24] who is hearing
[00:48:24] that
[00:48:25] Russell of the bushes
[00:48:26] and was paranoid
[00:48:27] and they have been helpful
[00:48:29] up until modern life
[00:48:30] and are now
[00:48:31] and in our
[00:48:31] particular situation
[00:48:32] incredibly unhelpful
[00:48:33] but in every other scenario
[00:48:35] they're great
[00:48:36] they're brilliant
[00:48:36] but no longer servings
[00:48:38] yeah thank you for saying that
[00:48:39] explaining it in that way
[00:48:40] I mean completely right
[00:48:41] and it's not
[00:48:42] fault
[00:48:43] you're not creating these things
[00:48:44] you're not
[00:48:45] making it worse
[00:48:46] by associating
[00:48:47] it's just
[00:48:48] how could you not
[00:48:49] you know
[00:48:49] you're trying to figure it out
[00:48:50] it would be impossible
[00:48:52] not to
[00:48:52] without this knowledge
[00:48:53] and it would
[00:48:54] then when you do I do
[00:48:56] it is the most normal
[00:48:57] understandable
[00:48:58] it'd be very odd if you didn't
[00:48:59] it would also
[00:49:00] probably would have resulted
[00:49:01] in your death
[00:49:02] in other areas
[00:49:03] you know like
[00:49:03] these are mechanisms
[00:49:04] that are there for a reason
[00:49:05] yeah for sure
[00:49:06] I wanted to ask you
[00:49:07] about that diet part
[00:49:08] because
[00:49:08] and I also saw a post
[00:49:09] on your social media
[00:49:10] talking about that
[00:49:12] and I guess also with your
[00:49:14] experience and some of your
[00:49:15] before you
[00:49:15] work more with
[00:49:16] fatigue and chronic pain
[00:49:17] stuff like that
[00:49:18] some of your previous experience
[00:49:19] the interplay of
[00:49:21] diet and trying to be really
[00:49:22] healthy
[00:49:22] and eating well
[00:49:24] and the
[00:49:25] mind body world
[00:49:25] could you
[00:49:26] talk a little bit about
[00:49:27] what you think about that
[00:49:28] yeah
[00:49:29] so I have
[00:49:29] I've strong opinions
[00:49:31] because of all the different
[00:49:32] words I've been in
[00:49:33] so yes I was in the
[00:49:34] eating disorder world
[00:49:35] where I myself
[00:49:37] and went through
[00:49:38] eating disorder recovery
[00:49:39] and then also became an
[00:49:40] eating disorder therapist
[00:49:41] and we really focus on
[00:49:43] intuitive eating
[00:49:44] and all foods are safe
[00:49:45] they all provide
[00:49:46] certain nutrients
[00:49:47] and different things
[00:49:48] for the body
[00:49:49] right that's not bad
[00:49:50] you know sugars
[00:49:51] not necessarily bad
[00:49:52] like all in balance
[00:49:53] all in intuitiveness
[00:49:54] and intuitive eating
[00:49:54] and so when you
[00:49:55] get to recovery
[00:49:56] from an eating disorder
[00:49:58] you go into
[00:49:59] out of the all or nothing
[00:50:00] and into
[00:50:00] okay balance
[00:50:01] and
[00:50:02] let me explore
[00:50:02] different foods
[00:50:03] right
[00:50:03] and so I kind of
[00:50:04] already had that
[00:50:06] knowledge of like
[00:50:07] food is not bad
[00:50:08] or certain foods are not bad
[00:50:09] but also I was
[00:50:10] very much so in a
[00:50:12] clean eating world
[00:50:13] for sure
[00:50:13] went down that route
[00:50:14] that's how it became
[00:50:15] disordered for me
[00:50:16] and so
[00:50:16] then when I had my own
[00:50:18] chronic symptoms
[00:50:19] fatigue
[00:50:20] mold
[00:50:20] histamine reactions
[00:50:22] I went through about a
[00:50:22] year and a half
[00:50:23] of down to eating
[00:50:24] like 10 foods
[00:50:25] because I would react to
[00:50:26] everything
[00:50:27] wow
[00:50:28] and there was a part of my
[00:50:29] mind that was like
[00:50:30] I don't know
[00:50:31] this doesn't make sense
[00:50:33] I don't
[00:50:33] this feels disordered
[00:50:34] but I don't
[00:50:35] I'm not saying these foods
[00:50:36] are bad in my mind
[00:50:37] I don't know
[00:50:37] I'm obviously reacting
[00:50:39] I'd either have a
[00:50:39] horrible migraine headache
[00:50:41] or I'd be sent into a
[00:50:42] fatigue crash
[00:50:43] so many different things
[00:50:44] and then
[00:50:45] when I found this work
[00:50:47] a second time around
[00:50:48] it clicked for me
[00:50:49] I was like
[00:50:49] I'm
[00:50:50] truly just associating
[00:50:52] these foods
[00:50:52] even though I was told by
[00:50:53] doctors
[00:50:54] that that's what's happening
[00:50:55] these foods are creating
[00:50:56] these symptoms
[00:50:56] so I was told that
[00:50:58] I had sensitivity tests
[00:50:59] that told me I was sensitive
[00:51:00] to all these things
[00:51:01] so I had
[00:51:01] real
[00:51:02] right
[00:51:02] I say real
[00:51:03] yeah
[00:51:04] evidence that like
[00:51:05] these foods were harmful
[00:51:07] to my body
[00:51:08] yeah
[00:51:09] but then
[00:51:10] when I had the realization
[00:51:11] of
[00:51:12] wait a minute
[00:51:13] it's my body
[00:51:14] it's my nervous system
[00:51:15] reacting towards these things
[00:51:17] and I can
[00:51:17] train that
[00:51:18] not happen
[00:51:19] yeah
[00:51:20] I mean I
[00:51:20] pretty much recovered from
[00:51:22] food sensitivity
[00:51:23] in like two weeks
[00:51:24] and I was back to eating
[00:51:25] everything
[00:51:25] and so
[00:51:26] it was that
[00:51:27] I mean it was a huge click
[00:51:29] for me
[00:51:29] it was fear too
[00:51:30] huge fear
[00:51:30] it was very similar to
[00:51:31] you with fatigue
[00:51:32] and so
[00:51:33] I see with all
[00:51:35] in that
[00:51:35] not only
[00:51:37] eating disorder world
[00:51:38] kind of teaches you
[00:51:38] to get out of it
[00:51:39] but
[00:51:40] when you're in
[00:51:40] chronic pain
[00:51:41] and illness world
[00:51:42] maybe you haven't had
[00:51:43] history of
[00:51:44] disorder eating
[00:51:45] I see so many people
[00:51:46] develop
[00:51:47] disorder eating
[00:51:48] because
[00:51:49] they're told
[00:51:50] no sugar
[00:51:51] a keto diet
[00:51:52] no diet
[00:51:52] this diet
[00:51:53] it's going to help pain
[00:51:54] decrease your information
[00:51:55] your blood sugars
[00:51:56] impacting your fatigue
[00:51:57] I mean we're told so much
[00:51:58] like there's so much emphasis
[00:52:00] on food and diet
[00:52:01] that's going to heal you
[00:52:02] from so many things
[00:52:03] when reality
[00:52:04] I can't remember the exact
[00:52:05] number
[00:52:06] but I saw this
[00:52:07] graph one time of
[00:52:08] actually what
[00:52:09] percentage of food
[00:52:10] impacts our health
[00:52:11] like it makes up our health
[00:52:12] right
[00:52:13] and it was
[00:52:13] I don't know
[00:52:14] 12 percent
[00:52:15] or something
[00:52:15] or 20
[00:52:16] 12 to 20 percent
[00:52:17] something like that
[00:52:19] and as
[00:52:19] like yeah exactly
[00:52:20] like of course
[00:52:21] food's important
[00:52:22] I'd like to nourish my body with food
[00:52:24] yeah
[00:52:25] but when we put so much emphasis on it
[00:52:27] and we're told so many times that
[00:52:30] these foods are good
[00:52:31] these foods are bad
[00:52:31] and there's so many trends with food
[00:52:33] it just
[00:52:33] how could we not get all
[00:52:35] confused and associate
[00:52:37] negatively
[00:52:37] you know
[00:52:38] is that
[00:52:38] and do you think the other element
[00:52:39] is the pressure
[00:52:40] so the associations
[00:52:41] like if I eat this
[00:52:42] this bad thing is going to happen
[00:52:43] and it's the other element
[00:52:44] the pressure you put on yourself
[00:52:46] so the type of people we are
[00:52:47] or I am certainly
[00:52:49] I would have all this long list
[00:52:50] of things as you say
[00:52:51] the things I can eat
[00:52:52] things I can't eat
[00:52:53] I need to do this that and the other
[00:52:54] and I would add up
[00:52:55] all these little
[00:52:56] this crazy long list
[00:52:57] and therefore it was completely impossible
[00:52:59] that I'd ever actually stick to it
[00:53:00] I mean it was crazy
[00:53:01] you would have been hard enough to stick to it
[00:53:02] if I was well
[00:53:03] but when you're really ill
[00:53:04] and all you can do is just walk to the fridge
[00:53:06] you're not going to cook up a perfect meal
[00:53:08] so you had these huge long list of
[00:53:10] things I told myself I must do
[00:53:11] and then I would inevitably fail
[00:53:13] then I'll beat myself up
[00:53:14] and put loads of pressure on myself
[00:53:16] and at some point
[00:53:17] the benefits that you gain
[00:53:19] from eating healthily
[00:53:21] are far outweighed
[00:53:22] by the effect on your nervous system
[00:53:24] of all that pressure you're putting on yourself
[00:53:26] that's what I think
[00:53:27] maybe the other part of it
[00:53:28] no one's saying
[00:53:29] no one is saying
[00:53:30] you know I come from the same background
[00:53:32] of I was always eating
[00:53:33] some of them were extreme
[00:53:34] some of them were just
[00:53:35] I was just trying to eat healthily
[00:53:37] to optimize my health
[00:53:38] but a number of
[00:53:39] you know so many different diets
[00:53:40] and so many different inputs
[00:53:42] that were confusing to me even at the time
[00:53:44] I saw I believe
[00:53:44] eating healthily is healthy
[00:53:46] there's no one's questioning that for a second
[00:53:48] what I think you're saying is
[00:53:50] when we get to the point
[00:53:51] where we add so much pressure on ourselves
[00:53:52] A we're left slightly to stick to it
[00:53:54] because we're almost guaranteed to fail
[00:53:56] and end some cycle of beating ourselves up
[00:53:58] then setting another ridiculous goal
[00:54:00] or whatever
[00:54:01] so we're not going to stick to it
[00:54:02] and then also we're going to cause
[00:54:03] farm damage
[00:54:04] you know that all that pressure
[00:54:05] like all those things you need to be doing
[00:54:07] and I can literally look back
[00:54:08] at some of my notebooks I had around the time
[00:54:10] before I really wrote down what was going on
[00:54:12] I looked back at the day
[00:54:14] and I saw like three pages of these things
[00:54:16] like these little checkboxes
[00:54:17] of things I had to do
[00:54:18] and some of them were lifestyle
[00:54:19] like I've got to wake up you know
[00:54:21] like go and catch the sun straight away
[00:54:23] do all these things
[00:54:24] then I'm going to meditate
[00:54:26] then I'm going to do this
[00:54:27] and this ridiculous routine
[00:54:28] if like 10 things morning
[00:54:29] 10 things at lunchtime
[00:54:30] and 10 things in the evening
[00:54:31] I mean not sure I ever did a single day
[00:54:33] where I stuck to them
[00:54:34] and I would just start
[00:54:35] beating myself up and repeating the cycle
[00:54:37] but the other part is
[00:54:38] that pressure we put on ourselves
[00:54:39] Exactly
[00:54:40] the more you're constantly thinking about food
[00:54:44] whether you're eating the right things
[00:54:45] or not eating the right things
[00:54:46] that puts 100% more stress
[00:54:49] way more stress on your body
[00:54:51] than actually eating something different
[00:54:53] or not eating the right foods right
[00:54:55] yes you said it exactly
[00:54:56] Yeah
[00:54:57] Can I ask you one final question
[00:54:59] it was something
[00:54:59] it was another thing I saw in your social media
[00:55:01] which I thought was really well written
[00:55:03] and it's just a
[00:55:04] it's an interesting thing
[00:55:05] which you obviously had fatigue as well
[00:55:07] and I think it's something we face in that world
[00:55:09] but you had written about
[00:55:11] when to push through
[00:55:12] and I think maybe the title was deliberate
[00:55:13] that when to push through
[00:55:14] and when to roll back I guess
[00:55:16] and I think it's linked in with the whole
[00:55:17] pacing thing
[00:55:18] but what's your take on it
[00:55:20] Yeah
[00:55:20] So I actually did create a different podcast episode on it too
[00:55:23] because it's
[00:55:24] I mean I'm sure you grasp the question all the time
[00:55:28] well my answer is that
[00:55:29] I don't have an exact science
[00:55:30] I don't have an exact one, two, three step
[00:55:32] to figure that out
[00:55:33] but I do think that it comes with some trial and error
[00:55:36] and how much pressure are you putting on yourself
[00:55:39] so if you wake up
[00:55:40] and you're like oh I'm really tired
[00:55:42] is this a normal tired
[00:55:43] or is this like a fatigue crash tired
[00:55:45] right sometimes we have to go through some trial and error
[00:55:48] to kind of understand that
[00:55:49] and I also think that the more you do this work
[00:55:51] the more you get to know yourself a little bit more
[00:55:53] and then you know the types of symptoms
[00:55:55] that your body sends you
[00:55:56] or the feeling of the symptoms that your body sends you
[00:55:59] again it's not always exact
[00:56:00] you know we can't always know 100%
[00:56:02] but I think you get a little bit better at it
[00:56:04] what happens though is
[00:56:06] I mean pretty much what we've been saying is
[00:56:08] maybe it is because you just didn't get as much sleep
[00:56:11] as maybe you needed
[00:56:11] and you've had a long week
[00:56:12] and that's a normal type of fatigue
[00:56:15] but there's a lot of fear around it
[00:56:16] right there's a lot of pressure around it
[00:56:18] there's the fear of is this going to be a crash again
[00:56:20] or is this what's going to happen
[00:56:22] and then it could kind of end up
[00:56:24] evolving into a more fatigue crash
[00:56:27] and so with rest I like to say okay
[00:56:29] well why don't you give yourself the chance to
[00:56:32] rest and see does that help you
[00:56:34] but rest from a sense of you're allowing it
[00:56:37] you're not shaming yourself
[00:56:38] you're not thinking oh I should be more productive
[00:56:40] or I can't believe I'm not doing this
[00:56:41] or you know I had to cancel this
[00:56:43] and I'm not going to get enough done
[00:56:45] that's not rest
[00:56:45] that just keeps your nervous system on high alert
[00:56:48] if you allow yourself to do that
[00:56:50] and all right maybe you feel a little bit better
[00:56:52] by the end of the day
[00:56:53] or whatever that rest looks like for you
[00:56:55] then you know if not
[00:56:57] and you're still in a crash no matter how long you rested
[00:56:59] we know that's that's fatigue crash
[00:57:01] I think yeah one thing it's about my cat has joined me
[00:57:03] and this this guy knows very well about
[00:57:06] like he he doesn't think about
[00:57:07] he's not thinking about when he's resting
[00:57:09] when he's not like he's a mind-body expert
[00:57:12] one thing he said this stood out to me
[00:57:13] is that how are you able to respond to what you do
[00:57:15] if you're if you're wondering about doing something
[00:57:17] should I do this thing
[00:57:18] if you feel comfortable about it
[00:57:20] and you don't think you can have significant fear
[00:57:22] that will actually affect
[00:57:24] how your body actually responds to it right
[00:57:26] so I I agree like letting your own comfort levels
[00:57:30] your own feelings about it also
[00:57:31] dictate how much you do is a is a really good thing right
[00:57:34] and we can also create self-fulfilling prophecies
[00:57:38] like absolutely if we think doing this thing
[00:57:40] is going to cause a crash
[00:57:42] then it can absolutely exacerbate that
[00:57:45] that experience we then have
[00:57:46] it's linked in with pacing
[00:57:47] and I think and you can really do pacing
[00:57:50] pacing done incorrectly
[00:57:53] sounds like if I go over whatever limit
[00:57:55] if I go over x steps today
[00:57:57] if my heart rate goes over whatever
[00:57:59] if I use our x amount of energy
[00:58:01] then something really bad is going to happen
[00:58:03] and that is deeply unhelpful for the nervous system
[00:58:06] by having rigid set limits
[00:58:07] we know a characteristic of all these conditions
[00:58:10] is that they change over time
[00:58:11] they go up and down naturally that that's always going to happen
[00:58:14] so instead of saying like if I do this
[00:58:16] then it's going to cause a crash
[00:58:17] with having having set rigid limits
[00:58:19] and then be like telling your brain like warning
[00:58:21] you've just gone over that limit
[00:58:22] you're now going to crash
[00:58:24] that is terrible for the nervous system
[00:58:26] inversely like if you were how could that sound
[00:58:29] it's like do you not yeah you're like
[00:58:30] I've done that and I I'm able to feel comfortable
[00:58:33] feel calm and not having set rigid limits
[00:58:35] saying would you not they they go up
[00:58:37] and they go down sometimes I can do stuff
[00:58:38] and it and it caused me to crash
[00:58:40] and sometimes it doesn't therefore today
[00:58:42] it could be one of those times that it doesn't
[00:58:43] it's okay like I did a lot today and I'm
[00:58:46] going to be okay
[00:58:47] and then when the symptoms start come on
[00:58:48] like you can reapply the same thing
[00:58:50] yeah I could be entering crash
[00:58:51] that's what the first thought your brain's
[00:58:53] going to come up with because we're all human
[00:58:54] again I could this could be the start of a bad crash
[00:58:57] or it could be fine I've had lots of times
[00:58:58] where I've actually symptoms have come on
[00:59:00] they've been light
[00:59:00] and considering the other possibility
[00:59:02] is really important
[00:59:03] so I think pacing done correctly is
[00:59:06] as you say more intuitive
[00:59:08] more guided by by having fear rather than
[00:59:10] rigid limits and fear would be the wrong
[00:59:12] way to do it for sure
[00:59:13] yeah that's what I kind of was getting
[00:59:15] from that we don't want to approach it
[00:59:16] rigidly right yeah that's not going to be
[00:59:18] helpful
[00:59:18] yeah yeah we're trying to figure out
[00:59:20] well if I'm feeling this way okay then
[00:59:22] you're going back into well what happened
[00:59:24] what caused it how did I make this
[00:59:25] happen that's also going to be here
[00:59:28] so yeah good and bad ways to
[00:59:30] respond to symptoms for sure
[00:59:32] yeah Chris this has been an amazing
[00:59:33] conversation I feel like we could have
[00:59:35] the whole other hour of this
[00:59:37] but I want to make sure that we have time
[00:59:39] at the end to help us understand a
[00:59:41] little bit more about the freemy app
[00:59:43] yeah of course
[00:59:44] I mean as you can imagine freemy came out
[00:59:45] of my own experiences with ME-CFS
[00:59:47] I'd recovered using this app as I told you
[00:59:49] and it was brilliant
[00:59:51] it was absolutely fantastic
[00:59:52] I was just constantly having to
[00:59:53] translate it though from chronic pain
[00:59:55] to fatigue
[00:59:56] and there are those literally the things
[00:59:58] we just spoke about you know how
[00:59:59] dealing with crashes dealing with
[01:00:01] PEM
[01:00:01] like how okay what is it different
[01:00:03] slightly different more helpful way
[01:00:04] I can do pacing
[01:00:06] and everything we've just spoken about
[01:00:08] that is freemy it's taking the whole
[01:00:10] world the whole neuroplasticity world
[01:00:12] the whole mind-body world
[01:00:13] and putting all of those approaches
[01:00:15] into that making it super simple and easy
[01:00:17] it's just like I think back to that
[01:00:19] moment I was sat on my sofa and I could
[01:00:21] do nothing other than be on my phone
[01:00:23] and do these sessions and what would
[01:00:25] have helped me and it's um
[01:00:26] it's broken up into the kind of things
[01:00:28] you'd expect like the first part is
[01:00:30] education
[01:00:31] literally knowing and understanding
[01:00:34] what's going on in the body
[01:00:35] how the nervous system works how it
[01:00:37] responds helpfully and unhelpfully
[01:00:39] was huge by far the biggest thing I ever
[01:00:41] did so that part of the education part
[01:00:43] is in there
[01:00:44] the brain training part is in there
[01:00:46] and that word I think has a bad rep
[01:00:48] but brain training means changing
[01:00:50] again things we just spoke about
[01:00:51] changing how we respond to symptoms
[01:00:53] training our brains to help in a
[01:00:55] more to respond in a more helpful way
[01:00:57] and then we can do that more directly
[01:00:58] it can't mean we know things like
[01:00:59] meditation which you also see in the
[01:01:01] app that's helpful
[01:01:02] it can be a more direct like okay I
[01:01:04] would like to switch from a fight or
[01:01:06] flight state into a more helpful
[01:01:09] rest and digest state and then finally
[01:01:11] there's writing exercises which I think
[01:01:13] people can tell you statistically the
[01:01:15] thing that people use the least in the
[01:01:18] app and yet we get the most emails
[01:01:19] saying do not this actually was the
[01:01:21] most helpful so when people do them
[01:01:23] it's we know it's helpful but Frimi
[01:01:25] just kind of is designed to take all
[01:01:27] those approaches they're commonly
[01:01:28] accepted the things that work that
[01:01:30] you hear every mind-body
[01:01:31] practitioner and doctor and
[01:01:33] neuroscientists talk about and then
[01:01:35] finally we're doing some really cool
[01:01:37] exciting stuff with AI so we
[01:01:39] early in the year
[01:01:40] we released the world's first mind-body
[01:01:42] trained AI chatbot which is amazing
[01:01:45] because when I was ill and you type
[01:01:47] into Google you know what do I do with
[01:01:49] my condition
[01:01:50] you are fed with that you rolling your
[01:01:52] eyes tells me exactly you have the
[01:01:53] same experience you just you're fed
[01:01:55] nothing but like negativity doom and
[01:01:57] gloom and deeply unhelpful advice so
[01:01:59] to have like a recovery focus chatbot
[01:02:01] that you can ask any question you
[01:02:02] can do a session and be like yeah okay
[01:02:04] but how does that apply to me or
[01:02:05] yeah and you just have so many
[01:02:07] questions when you enter this world
[01:02:08] and just be able to turn around 24-7
[01:02:10] and and ask those questions is really
[01:02:12] cool and we're doing some exciting
[01:02:14] well I won't give away all of it but
[01:02:15] we're we're carrying on developing
[01:02:17] AI tools that we know will help
[01:02:19] people even now the moment we're
[01:02:21] implementing one where you can just
[01:02:22] go on and say okay here's what's
[01:02:24] going on give me a lesson and it
[01:02:25] will just go through the Frimi
[01:02:26] database and look at all hundred
[01:02:28] lessons and go you need this one
[01:02:30] like and here's why and here's what
[01:02:31] you're doing here's why it might go
[01:02:32] out for here's maybe a slightly
[01:02:33] better way and here's a lesson on it
[01:02:35] so for it to be able to do things like
[01:02:37] that is really cool as well
[01:02:38] so it's um exciting time this year
[01:02:41] it's kind of gone a bit crazy I think
[01:02:42] people people are definitely ready
[01:02:44] for something ME, CFS and non-COVID
[01:02:46] specific for tea for crashes but
[01:02:49] PEM I think that's what's helped
[01:02:50] just really explode a little bit
[01:02:52] I totally agree one of my prefaces
[01:02:55] sometimes with again love curable
[01:02:57] I use it all myself and still send
[01:02:58] it out to everyone
[01:03:00] is that I just even in my program I
[01:03:02] preface all the time the word pain
[01:03:04] means everything right all these
[01:03:06] symptoms but also I do think there's
[01:03:09] some nuance with fatigue and a little
[01:03:11] bit of shifting and different uses and
[01:03:13] languages that can be helpful so I
[01:03:15] think that's really important so it
[01:03:16] sounds awesome
[01:03:17] yeah thank you yeah it's huge yeah I
[01:03:19] think pain we can absolutely substitute
[01:03:21] pain for all symptoms but they are
[01:03:23] unique and having something that
[01:03:24] specific helps we know it does
[01:03:27] but it's exciting
[01:03:28] cool amazing okay
[01:03:30] and there will be a link below
[01:03:31] as well to check out the app
[01:03:34] is there anything else or is there
[01:03:35] anywhere else
[01:03:36] people can find information about the
[01:03:38] app or what you're doing
[01:03:39] or just follow the link below
[01:03:40] yeah you can go to freemyhealth.com
[01:03:42] that's the website and obviously just
[01:03:44] type into one of the app stores and
[01:03:45] you'll find it freemy and so free
[01:03:47] and me one word and then the best
[01:03:49] thing to do is on you just jump
[01:03:50] straight on the app because you
[01:03:51] there's a number of free sessions
[01:03:53] you can try the AI chat bot and
[01:03:55] stuff like that that's the best
[01:03:56] thing to do for sure
[01:03:57] it's designed to you just turn up
[01:03:59] every single day and just tap the
[01:04:00] next session button
[01:04:01] and it's designed to be simple
[01:04:03] so I remember what it was like to be
[01:04:05] in that place
[01:04:05] well thank you so much for the work
[01:04:06] that you're doing and what you're
[01:04:08] putting out there
[01:04:09] and for coming on the podcast
[01:04:10] no not at all it's um always lovely
[01:04:12] and I've had a lot of these
[01:04:13] conversations but you feel like
[01:04:15] this instant you know you're
[01:04:17] talking to somebody who's been to
[01:04:18] the same journey and that journey
[01:04:19] is incredibly profound isn't it
[01:04:21] there's no other there's no way
[01:04:24] it could not be profound
[01:04:25] it's something which i'm
[01:04:27] oddly deeply deeply grateful for
[01:04:29] and I understand completely if I
[01:04:31] wasn't in that place when I was
[01:04:33] I couldn't think of a single thing
[01:04:35] to be grateful at some point
[01:04:36] and yet this is the the best thing
[01:04:37] to ever happen in my life
[01:04:39] recovery things that um is worth I
[01:04:41] think I'm trying to say that
[01:04:42] recovery can and this this illness
[01:04:45] and the things that people are going
[01:04:46] through can be the best thing
[01:04:47] happening in your life as well
[01:04:48] even though they don't they don't
[01:04:49] feel like it at the time
[01:04:51] definitely agree it can be hard to
[01:04:52] see it for sure
[01:04:54] but I mean can completely change
[01:04:56] your life so yeah
[01:04:58] there are periods of huge growth
[01:04:59] and sometimes it took me five years
[01:05:01] let me see a fest to learn those
[01:05:05] lessons yeah and I hope other people
[01:05:07] can do it for short periods for sure
[01:05:09] all right thank you and we will see
[01:05:12] you on the podcast
[01:05:14] if this podcast means something to
[01:05:16] you it would mean so much to me if
[01:05:17] you could do these couple things
[01:05:19] one go to the heal with grace show
[01:05:21] page wherever you listen
[01:05:23] and tap the plus sign or click on
[01:05:24] the follow button so you don't miss
[01:05:26] an episode
[01:05:27] it helps both of us out
[01:05:28] while you're there if you could get a
[01:05:30] five star review
[01:05:31] so that this podcast can reach more
[01:05:33] people
[01:05:34] it would mean so much to me
[01:05:36] so I can continue sharing episodes
[01:05:37] that help you
[01:05:38] as well as others
[01:05:40] thanks for listening
[01:05:41] and I hope this brings you hope on
[01:05:42] your journey