Are You Putting Pressure on Yourself to Get Better? With Lindsay Vine

[00:00:00] So if the big three pathways that we want to retrain are worry, pressure and self-criticism,
[00:00:05] right? That's what they teach in pain reprocessing therapy. I thought about it a lot that like the
[00:00:10] opposite, obviously the opposite of self-criticism is self-compassion, right? So that's always what
[00:00:16] we want to pivot to with self-criticism and self-compassion. And the opposite of worry
[00:00:22] is really gratitude because it's like what if what if is always that future-oriented. So
[00:00:29] gratitude is like what can I be grateful for right now? Again, bringing us back to that present so we
[00:00:35] could pivot to that. And the opposite of pressure, which is that I should be doing this, I should
[00:00:40] be doing this, is this idea of like being more focused on your wins. So what's going well?
[00:00:46] Like what's going well right now? Do you see how they're opposite? Like I should be doing
[00:00:50] this, I should like I am doing this well. I am resting. I am trying to take care of myself.
[00:00:55] Hey there and welcome to the heal with grace podcast. I'm your host, Grace Secker, and I'm a
[00:01:01] holistic licensed therapist and nervous system coach who believes that the chronic and often
[00:01:07] unseen symptoms you're living with are a sign of something deeper going on. A sign that your
[00:01:13] nervous system needs attention. In each episode, I'll share the science behind the most common
[00:01:18] chronic health disorders plus holistic tips using mental, physical, and spiritual practices.
[00:01:23] You'll hear what I've learned in my journey and the true stories from our trusted guests
[00:01:28] so you can feel less alone in your experience and give yourself grace no matter what you're
[00:01:33] going through. So without further ado, settle in and get cozy. It's time to heal with grace.
[00:01:38] Hi, Lindsay. Thank you so much for coming back on the heal with grace podcast. For those
[00:01:43] of you who don't know, Lindsay was on the podcast previously, which we will link that
[00:01:47] episode below as well. For those who didn't hear, why don't you tell us a little about yourself,
[00:01:52] how you got here, and what you're doing now? Yeah, great. It's been a big journey probably
[00:01:57] since we last talked too. Doing one-on-one coaching is the main thing I do for people
[00:02:03] with ME-CFS, long COVID, all kinds of system sensitivities. I'm also teaching courses,
[00:02:09] which is really amazing within the healthcare system here in BC in Canada. So for people
[00:02:15] who live in this province, and there's one main ME-CFS specialist, all the courses are covered
[00:02:20] by the healthcare systems. I'm teaching, yeah, my body work and I'm just starting a neuroplasticity
[00:02:26] course. So that's really like my true passion is to get these more access to these kinds of
[00:02:32] resources to people who need them. What else am I doing? I have the programs guide we're
[00:02:36] going to talk about in a minute, I think. And yeah, what else? I'm trying to like
[00:02:42] still work up my capacity. Like I'm recovered, but I want to be able to like do more intensive
[00:02:46] workouts every other day. I still am not at that level. Like my body needs a few days to get back,
[00:02:54] like I can still work during those times and walk my dog and everything. But to get to full
[00:02:59] spin class mode, I find I still need a few days to recover. So it's funny when people call
[00:03:04] themselves recover, it means different things to different people, right? So I think it's really
[00:03:09] important to be honest about that, that like, I'm still trying to work up my capacity. And even
[00:03:15] though I'm at such a high capacity and I'm so grateful for that. But for me, that's my level
[00:03:21] of capacity. But otherwise, I just have my lovely dog and just went to Columbia and enjoying my life
[00:03:27] really. Yeah, I'm actually really glad you mentioned the recovery. I just had an episode
[00:03:33] a little bit ago talking about that that even what does recovery look like, right? Because
[00:03:37] you're right, there's so many different ways. And I don't think it's talked about enough. So
[00:03:40] yeah, I appreciate you sharing that part. And I'm not even sure with some people because they make
[00:03:44] it sound like they're 100% never have to do any kind of pacing anymore. So is that a different
[00:03:52] kind of CFS than I have? I'm not sure. It's really interesting. Or is it that I'm just not
[00:03:57] at that capacity level? Like I feel like I'm always going to have to be a bit careful.
[00:04:03] But who knows? Yeah. Yeah, I want to give you the floor for an overview of your story. Again,
[00:04:10] we go in depth in the previous episode, but I'll just share that I feel like I've come to a place
[00:04:16] recognizing that my body just talks to me sometimes. That's how it processes. And so there are
[00:04:23] things that pop up. There are symptoms. Is it what it used to be where I was debilitating
[00:04:29] all the time? No. But that's at least where I am now is time to time. Yeah, like we were just
[00:04:36] talking about on our travels. I did have a real I had a UTI and then it lingered. It went into
[00:04:44] some lingering symptoms that didn't make sense on a structural level. So it was obviously something.
[00:04:48] Right. And then I worked through it and I'm good now. But yeah, yeah, I had a crash back
[00:04:53] in April last year, which was the first time in four years that I'd felt like that actual
[00:05:00] feeling of like no energy in my body. It had been from trying ozempic to be honest. I tried
[00:05:06] because there is actually a little bit of a stimulation to your nervous system. I didn't
[00:05:09] realize with that drug and my body freaked out about it. And it took me about three months
[00:05:14] to work my way back up to like my current capacity again. So it's yeah, I think we'll
[00:05:20] always have that susceptibility and that our body gives us those signs. But I did just again that
[00:05:26] you can get better is always my message. Yeah. And you have a really wonderful story. So why don't
[00:05:31] you share a little bit about that of like where you really were on those dark times? Yeah, sure.
[00:05:36] Yeah. So I started around 2016. I had just finished my master's program. I literally just
[00:05:42] handed in my thesis when my body just crashed. I had gotten strep throat after strep throat.
[00:05:48] And I had gotten lice from my roommate. I know it's so gross, but she was a teacher and brought
[00:05:53] home lice. And you can just imagine how that brings that hypervigilance to like, are they
[00:05:58] still there? Are they still there? What if someone gets them into your brain and, you know,
[00:06:03] a breakup and I was watching Breaking Bad, all these things that were not good for my nervous
[00:06:09] system. You didn't know I was taking breaks from writing my thesis and watching Breaking Bad.
[00:06:13] Now it's like I totally understand how that freaked my nervous system out. I was never letting
[00:06:19] it rest. And it was just done after the master's. And, you know, I did get better a little bit
[00:06:24] after a while, but then I would start a new job and I would crash again. And I wasn't able to
[00:06:30] figure out how to get back like the capacity I could before. And then I ended up moving to
[00:06:36] an island off the coast of Vancouver here and just getting worse and worse there. Honestly,
[00:06:41] it was an isolation factor. I think that really was maybe a mold factor. It's hard to know really
[00:06:48] what was going on. It's super like damp everything there. My body was not happy. And it came to
[00:06:55] a point where I was like pretty much like bed bound able to like crawl to the bathroom was like
[00:07:00] the point where I got to and like, yeah, peeing in a Tupperware beside my bed and eating the
[00:07:06] cans of tuna beside my bed. People, yeah, react to that visual. But I really like
[00:07:12] was very quite obstinate about accepting help. I didn't want to,
[00:07:17] I knew I could get better, I think at some level, but it was just getting worse and worse.
[00:07:23] So it got to that really, really dark place on that island. And I finally realized I had to
[00:07:29] make some changes. I had tried over the years, because this is about five years in, I had
[00:07:34] tried brain retraining, gotten a bit better, and then come back to the island because I tried it in
[00:07:39] Thailand. And then I got back to the island and crashed. Also drug changes made me crash.
[00:07:45] There was a bunch of reasons I wasn't able to get better in those first five years. And then
[00:07:52] I feel like I was ready to make a big change. And that's where I had asked my stepdad to
[00:07:56] help me pay for CFS health program, which is one of the online programs. And I made some
[00:08:02] friends who were also working on recovery. That was a helpful step for me.
[00:08:08] My friends had a bit of an intervention and brought me back to Vancouver. They like helped
[00:08:14] find me a place. They moved me. I feel very lucky to have good friends. And from there was all
[00:08:20] uphill. So I always say it took about seven, seven and a half years for me to get better.
[00:08:26] But it was really those last two years that I was working up. The rest was just very up and
[00:08:31] down. So people say like, how long does it take to recover? And it's so individual because it totally
[00:08:37] depends what lessons you're learning, what environment. There's so many factors. I know
[00:08:42] people hate that they all want a timeline. I know it's the hardest question to answer.
[00:08:48] I know everybody wants a timeline. So yeah, they worked from there. And I was so lucky in
[00:08:53] a way to be on disability and be able to build some skills while I was on disability.
[00:08:59] Because I started the post viral podcast that me and my friends do started. I was only out of bed
[00:09:05] maybe four hours a day when we started that podcast. And it's cool because if you listen
[00:09:10] by the end of season one, we went to Mexico together. So you can kind of see me building.
[00:09:15] And it's really all the lessons we learned in CFS Health Program. So I recommend
[00:09:21] season one because there's some really great, great tips in there. And so that really
[00:09:25] got me on this path of like enjoying teaching this area and learning about my body work
[00:09:31] and teaching people about it. And it helped me see my direction going forwards. And then
[00:09:37] Liz Carlson came to me about her idea, which I had also had of some kind of guide for all these
[00:09:44] online programs out there. So people could more easily like figure out which program was right
[00:09:49] for them because there's so many programs. So then we started creating the CFS programs guide,
[00:09:55] which we've recently updated. So yeah, I think that's pretty much it.
[00:10:00] Yeah, overall, what would you say you said seven and a half years, that's when you felt
[00:10:06] you could say you recovered? Yeah, that's why I would say I use that language. It was
[00:10:10] interesting when I did my recovery interview with Raelyn Agel and she called that video
[00:10:16] like fully recovered. And I was like, I have never used that language before.
[00:10:21] But he encouraged me to start using that language because in a way that like in a mindset shift
[00:10:27] is really good for your brain to call yourself recovered. The doctor I work with uses the word
[00:10:35] remission. And I don't really think that's good. In terms of thinking of yourself in
[00:10:40] remission, it's like there's always this monster under the bed, right? If you call
[00:10:45] yourself in remission, like I do believe I'll always have a sensitive nervous system.
[00:10:50] But that term doesn't feel good to me, you know? I would agree with that. Yeah, yeah. So like, you
[00:10:57] know, we have sensitive nervous systems. But yeah, I'm definitely I feel recovered. I can live my
[00:11:03] life fully now. Yeah, and that's what matters, right? We're not looking for perfection. You're
[00:11:07] never not going to get sick again or not feel something. And at the same time, you're
[00:11:11] fully functional, you're in your life. There is this sense of, yeah, okay, I've got this,
[00:11:16] I can help myself even if something comes up. Yes, you have tools now. Exactly. So you're like
[00:11:22] empowered and equipped, not like at the whims of this illness, right? Exactly, exactly. Okay,
[00:11:29] so let's go back to the recovery guide for a second. Yeah. Actually, when I met you, I had no
[00:11:35] idea there were that many programs out there. I truly did it. I wasn't as in-depth, I think.
[00:11:40] I knew something but I didn't know a lot. And then I learned a lot through you and through
[00:11:44] the first guide. So tell us more about the guide. Yeah, sure. So the original guide was a PDF
[00:11:51] that you downloaded, but that wasn't very user friendly. So now it's updated to a website,
[00:11:57] which is like fully searchable and clickable. We have tabs for things like the most affordable
[00:12:04] program. So you can go straight to the programs that are under $300. We have a mental
[00:12:10] bandwidth score. So we kind of did a relative scale of low, medium, high of how much mental
[00:12:16] bandwidth you'd need to do this program, because some take a lot more than others. There's currently
[00:12:22] 34 programs in the guide, which I still worry about it feeling overwhelming to people. But
[00:12:30] it's just really important to notice how you approach it. You want to go,
[00:12:36] and we have a lot of this kind of information in there of how you want to approach it with
[00:12:41] curiosity and what kind of things are you looking for. And remember, there's no one right
[00:12:47] program out there. There's no best program, except for graces, of course. But there's no
[00:12:56] like one right program for everyone. Different people, they are more drawn to the personalities
[00:13:03] of different program creators. Different people need different tools. I always talk about and how
[00:13:10] ours is set up is these four areas of healing. So one is like pacing and lifestyle. So we have
[00:13:17] programs that just focus on that. And some that that's a piece of. And then the second one is
[00:13:23] brain retraining or mindset work. The third is somatic body work. And then the fourth is
[00:13:29] self discovery work, which includes things like trauma work and like how to live your life fully.
[00:13:35] And some of them like your program or a combo of all of those. But some of them really specify
[00:13:42] like I'm just a brain retraining program. So you can look at what elements do you think
[00:13:47] that would be helpful for you? Maybe overall, but also maybe right now, because sometimes
[00:13:53] it's better to just do one thing at a time instead of trying to do everything. So
[00:13:59] overwhelm, I think can actually happen. But look at it with curiosity instead of like
[00:14:06] making it be like, Oh, I can't do anything now, right? Like, how can we take a step back from
[00:14:13] that and make it a useful resource? So yeah, I think that's it's it's all online. It's at
[00:14:18] HealWithLiz.com, because Liz Carlson and I co-created it. We had an amazing assistant this year,
[00:14:26] MJ Gacy. I mean, she co-wrote it really in the latest form. Yeah, HealWithLiz.com slash programs
[00:14:35] guide is where you can find that. Yeah, and we'll have it link below. I actually really
[00:14:40] appreciate you describing how to approach it because there's a lot of pressure which goes
[00:14:46] right on into our episode today. Pressure that people put on themselves to choose the right one,
[00:14:52] the right treatment, because they've been jaded and exhausted and spent a lot of money on so many
[00:14:58] things leading up to this that of course they're just like, Oh, this is a new thing. Let me choose
[00:15:02] the right one. Yeah. And it doesn't always, there's not a perfect one, right? So not a perfect one.
[00:15:09] And yeah, a lot of program creators added videos and testimonials and stuff. So that'll
[00:15:14] help you get a little feel for what feels more right for you. But yeah, in the end, no matter
[00:15:19] what program you choose, you're going to learn something. You're going to get a step closer
[00:15:23] to recovery or all the way, but it really depends how many lessons our bodies want to learn and
[00:15:29] how much time we need to heal because there's no magic bullet. There just isn't, unfortunately.
[00:15:36] Yeah. And I remember you talking about doing a couple of different programs for yourself.
[00:15:40] Yeah, yeah, just the NRS. And like, that's one that has, it's quite strict in terms of
[00:15:46] recommending an hour a day out loud, do it standing up, all these things which ended up being okay
[00:15:52] for me because I'm not really a perfectionist. I'm an achiever, but not that perfectionist thing
[00:15:57] we see a lot. So I was okay with doing it like 20 minutes twice a day. And I never did it out
[00:16:03] loud. I never did it standing up. But some people put a lot of pressure on themselves
[00:16:07] to do it right, right? So I did make some improvements. The big problem for me with that program
[00:16:14] was that it's very much like in six months, I see myself doing this and this and that.
[00:16:19] And I believed so hard. And then I did a drug change. I came to different environment,
[00:16:25] as I said earlier, and I had a big crash. And the level of depression,
[00:16:30] after you've like seen yourself in six months better, and then you're back to zero,
[00:16:35] like I couldn't even touch brain retraining for like two years. So I get a lot of clients in a
[00:16:40] similar situation to that is they fully believed in brain retraining was going to be the thing.
[00:16:46] And then they have a crash. And it's so hard to get back on the mind body train
[00:16:50] when you've had that situation. I can very much resonate with that. Yeah. Yeah,
[00:16:56] but it is tricky because there's this element of the language we use, right,
[00:17:01] like recovered versus revision, or what we see for ourselves, how we think about ourselves,
[00:17:06] how we see our future and not identifying so much with being sick and ill and never getting better.
[00:17:13] So it's important. And also if we expect it to go this way and no other way at all,
[00:17:20] and then it doesn't, oh, that's really disappointing. So heartbreaking. Yeah. So you have to look
[00:17:26] at it as like one tool that's absolutely helpful and can be extremely helpful.
[00:17:32] But yeah, life is up and down. It's not the be all end all the other problem with brain retraining
[00:17:37] since we're on that track is that it can be a little gaslighty feeling for your emotions.
[00:17:43] That's the problem with the original programs a little bit is that it's very positive psychology
[00:17:49] like I am. Well, I'm great. I'm, you know, I feel excellent even if you feel like shit.
[00:17:54] And for some people, their brain kind of rebels against that and it does not like you lying to it.
[00:18:01] So you probably know as a psychologist better about like the problems with positive psychology.
[00:18:07] But yeah, it can be a problem sometimes. Yeah, it's, this is what I always say,
[00:18:12] we need, we need both the brain retraining is important, leaning into positive thoughts,
[00:18:17] sensations, important. And also at least in my experience, especially as a therapist,
[00:18:23] that's not enough. And so working with the emotions and acknowledging the different parts
[00:18:29] of us that are showing up like maybe acknowledging where the pressure we put on ourselves is coming
[00:18:34] from is it coming from this place of not feeling worthy enough or expecting ourselves to
[00:18:38] be perfect or if we're not achieving or successful, we feel like what not worth it or something
[00:18:45] like that. And so I truly do see that we need both and personal and professional experience.
[00:18:52] Yeah, I agree. I agree. And some people maybe came into brain retraining with a lot of that.
[00:18:57] So that's why brain retraining was enough for them. But because I actually,
[00:19:01] that's what the creator of DNRS said to me, because I was, I was kind of telling her,
[00:19:05] her program has some issues, but she was like, Oh, I had already done that kind of work before
[00:19:10] I created brain retraining and it healed me. And I was like, Oh, that makes sense that
[00:19:15] you didn't think to put that in your program then. But for some people,
[00:19:19] changing your thoughts to positivity, you know, there's, there's deeper stuff going on.
[00:19:24] So it's a bit of a band aid, right? Exactly. And it can feel that like,
[00:19:29] like I've heard a lot of people say, I just, it's so fake. I can't lean into it.
[00:19:33] Like you said, you feel like, Oh, I'm feeling great when you're absolutely feeling like shit.
[00:19:38] It's hard sometimes. Yeah, it really is hard for some people's brains to get there.
[00:19:43] Yeah. Okay. So on the lines of how we end up putting pressure on ourselves, a lot of people
[00:19:53] don't understand that it's very inherent and can be subtle, right? Subconscious. And we talk about
[00:19:58] different personality characteristics that can lead into chronic symptoms, not causing,
[00:20:03] not the only reason you're causing yourself these symptoms, right? But in your experience,
[00:20:09] what does that look like for someone? How do they put pressure on themselves that
[00:20:12] can stress the nervous system? Oh, it just can look like so many different things. In my personal
[00:20:18] experience, I spend my whole master's program, like in this constant state of pressure, of I should
[00:20:26] be doing more, I should be better. I did for contacts like masters in public health, which is
[00:20:33] like kind of half art students and half students who like just want to do this for their pre-med
[00:20:39] applications. So like super science, very driven, different brain. I'm an arts brain. I'm not a science
[00:20:46] brain, but I was like comparing myself to them in this way. And I was like, I just have to accept
[00:20:51] I'm dumb. I'm just dumb, which is crazy because I was doing well. And they were like envious of
[00:20:58] my ability to speak and be creative. And I had my own like attributes, but I wasn't seeing it
[00:21:06] that way. And crazy, it is an issue in academia, this pressure, you should be networking, you should
[00:21:14] be reading constantly, like, I just felt a lot, a lot of pressure. And I know I did it to myself.
[00:21:21] And there came a real pivotal point when my supervisor was like, I'm not sure if you're
[00:21:25] going to finish this term. And that was like the potential humiliation of having to tell
[00:21:32] people I didn't finish caused me like a total breakdown. I flipped out. And it's just so
[00:21:39] interesting how much we can put our value on our achievements. And it so goes back to what Dr.
[00:21:46] Sarno talks about, this goodest personality is I really want to be seen as good. And that
[00:21:53] means different things to different people. But it's a very common attribute of people
[00:21:58] with this illness, I think more than the perfectionism is the good ism is they want to
[00:22:03] be seen overall as good. And there's something within us that our nervous system gets so obsessed
[00:22:09] with it sometimes. And, and it can really cause a breakdown when when we don't get it, or we try
[00:22:15] too hard, and we fail at it, it feels like our body needs to fully shut down is what happens.
[00:22:22] It's a huge threat if we are, we are not good. If we're not in that, right? Yes, I'm very happy
[00:22:28] we're talking about this because that good ism. I actually saw a therapist post about this recently,
[00:22:33] the good girl effect, like really needing to be this way and not just from it's not all just
[00:22:39] vanity metrics or anything like that, right? Sure, that goes into it, but it is a true
[00:22:43] deep need and desire for that worthiness to be seen a certain way. And if we're not,
[00:22:50] it truly is a huge threat to the nervous system, which is why we end up crashing if we don't feel
[00:22:54] like that, or if we're not in that way. Yeah, I recommend to people to like, if you agree with
[00:23:01] me and Grace, that that's a piece of you to look into where that came from, because I can see now
[00:23:05] how like, my brother was the was the trouble child, you know, and all the attention
[00:23:10] was on him and because he was bullied and all this stuff. So for me, my place growing
[00:23:16] up was like, to be the good girl, you know, I wasn't going to be the one who was taking up all
[00:23:21] their energy. And it really is interesting when you look back at why you became so obsessed with it.
[00:23:28] I actually have the same story. Yeah. Yeah, my brother was and then I had my own mental health
[00:23:35] issues, but they weren't as loud. And so I felt like I had to keep it all together.
[00:23:40] Right. A lot of people talk about, oh, did your parents put a lot of pressure on you
[00:23:43] for grades and things like that. And some people, yes, actually, that wasn't my story.
[00:23:49] Me neither. I wasn't something my parents put on me, because I come from a family
[00:23:52] of learning disability. So there was actually a lot of like empathy around school.
[00:23:57] But it was also society, nature, the town I lived in, you know, there was a lot of that
[00:24:02] pressure. But yeah, me feeling like I had to keep it all together, inherently and because
[00:24:08] of environment. Yeah. And I got it from my friends as well, not anything they did wrong, but
[00:24:15] I was a little bit of like the Lisa Simpson in the family of like, I was the one who had it
[00:24:19] together. And the rest of my family members were kind of, I don't know, anyway, they were what
[00:24:24] they were. And so I was like always trying to be like my friends and they are very stable
[00:24:29] families. And my friends all went to university. So of course, I'll go to university, but it
[00:24:34] was never expected of me. So I actually latched on to that good girl. This is what I should be doing
[00:24:40] again with the shoulds, which is all about pressure, very much comparing myself to other people.
[00:24:47] Yeah. I mean, our environment plays such a role, right? Friends, people, you're around the
[00:24:52] school that you're in. That I see it as almost puzzle pieces locking together to create more
[00:24:58] of this good ism feeling like we need that to happen. And if it's not going back actually
[00:25:03] to expectations, if you expect yourself to be this type of person and it doesn't happen or your
[00:25:08] body gets sick, part of the pressure we put ourselves leads to the sickness, but also then
[00:25:14] the sickness in and of itself comes with a layer of, oh my gosh, I'm not strong enough,
[00:25:18] or I'm too weak, or I'm a failure. I should have figured this out by now. I should be able
[00:25:24] to figure this out myself. Like it's such a crazy irony. I don't know if it's actually
[00:25:29] irony because irony confuses me sometimes, but that it gets us sick or it's a piece of getting
[00:25:35] us sick. And then we get sick and it's a thing that's actually making us stay sick because
[00:25:41] it's like this pressure, it builds, it builds, we shut down. And then we're getting more pressure,
[00:25:47] more worry, more self criticism. And so it's keeping it like keeping us sick or for some
[00:25:53] people making them worse and worse and worse, unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah, because then it
[00:25:58] becomes about am I doing good at recovery? Am I doing it all right? Am it, you know,
[00:26:04] I'm messing it up somehow when I do crash ribosymptom. Yeah. And then like, you're,
[00:26:10] at first you're trying to do it right with the doctors and you also want them to like you
[00:26:14] and all that too. So all these factors come in is like, you want to have the respect of
[00:26:19] doctors and then they're not listening to you. So there's that misunderstood pressure to be
[00:26:25] sick enough or smart enough. I realized at first I would go in with this like, oh, I'm so sick,
[00:26:32] like even though I was sick, but I wanted to look sick, so they believed me. And then I switched
[00:26:37] to more of a look how smart I am. I have a master's and stuff. So believe me because of that. And
[00:26:43] I'm literally choosing my way to present myself in like, how do you get the most believed,
[00:26:50] right? How crazy to have an illness that we have to do that. Is that insane?
[00:26:56] It is because you go through doctors, you go through treatments and or people not believing
[00:27:01] you. So you have to, at least that was part of my story. I felt like I needed to,
[00:27:06] yeah, to be a sicker, right? And I can even track that back to childhood. That's
[00:27:11] when I would get more attention. And if I was sick, and there's a lot of history there.
[00:27:15] So yeah, believe me. I know. Yeah, I have one specific thing because my mom used to let me
[00:27:22] have like mental health days where we'd stay home and make cookies. It's kind of funny to think about
[00:27:27] that how my brain would associate like being sick with getting my needs met because I was allowed to
[00:27:35] on those days and otherwise she was quite volatile. So those were days when I knew I was
[00:27:39] going to get the mom care, right? Our brains are so fascinating. You know, we don't need to have had
[00:27:46] big tea traumas to end up here. And often it's not a disease that comes from big tea traumas,
[00:27:52] but it's all important in creating our nervous system state. I actually just had a client
[00:27:59] recently who's not in the, I don't see her for my body symptoms for eating disorder recovery.
[00:28:05] And even in any kind of recovery, there is, especially in eating disorder world,
[00:28:09] because there's such an overlap that she was like talking about how she wants to do this exercise,
[00:28:16] just go to this class, but she's kind of nervous. Will it activate her fixation on exercise? And
[00:28:22] she's been recovered and recovery for a while. I pretty much trust her to do what she knows
[00:28:27] is right for her body. But you could see the pressure building like, I don't want to get this
[00:28:32] wrong. I don't want to make a mistake. I don't want to do something that's going to mess up my
[00:28:35] recovery and go back to where I was. And I see that happen in any type of client really, but
[00:28:42] you can just almost feel it. I don't want to mess up. Yeah. Yeah, it's so strong. And like,
[00:28:49] then the problem with the mind body world is with these programs, one problem is it like,
[00:28:54] I have one client who's in CFS recovery and CFS health and talking to me and they just,
[00:29:00] they want someone to save them, you know, and you actually, what actually works is more of a taking
[00:29:06] a step back and saying, what do I actually need? Instead of hearing all of these opinions and voices
[00:29:12] and constantly like listening to what Lindsey thinks I should do, what should I do? And it's
[00:29:18] a real shift when people want to be good. You know, that's a huge difference to like
[00:29:25] get into that mindset when your main focus, your whole life is like, what can I do to be good or
[00:29:30] at least look good, you know, on the outside. Yeah, I get your approval. Yeah. The doctor's
[00:29:35] approval, the coach's approval or be the good student, the good, you know, learner. Yeah,
[00:29:42] definitely. And I mean, it's like, yeah, there's a, it's a level of empowerment that is missing.
[00:29:49] Yeah. Yeah, you're putting all of your focus of control externally instead of putting your
[00:29:54] focus of control within you. That's a huge shift and it definitely, that's a process that's learned
[00:30:01] over time. Yeah. But you're right, that's a really powerful shift in the journey when you can start
[00:30:08] to see it, start to see it in different ways. How much am I giving over my power or having other
[00:30:14] people tell me what is okay and what's not okay for me or how I should be doing something?
[00:30:19] I'll say it with a caveat, especially in the beginning when you're learning these tools,
[00:30:23] of course it's helpful to learn from others and be in community and see what's helpful,
[00:30:28] right? But over time it's about learning them for you. Yeah, and I think we all have to go
[00:30:34] through that desperate phase of like, oh my God, somebody save me. I think everybody goes through
[00:30:39] that and it's almost hard when a client comes to me and they've only been sick for like six
[00:30:43] months, which feels like a long time for other people. But actually it's not that long in this
[00:30:49] world. Yeah. And I can tell sometimes when they're not ready for this because they just want that
[00:30:54] external like, yeah, savior, which is going to come from within. And that going back to the
[00:31:00] pressure thing, for me, one of the biggest aha moments turning points when I was like
[00:31:06] peeing in a bucket and bedbound mostly was something said in CFS Health, it's not the
[00:31:14] perfect program, but I'm not knocking it either, is this thing about switching your value focus from
[00:31:21] valuing your achievements to valuing your characteristics. And I really took a moment
[00:31:27] because I'd never thought of that before. You know, I'd only valued myself for my achievements
[00:31:32] and stepping back and being like, okay, I'm funny. I'm a good person. People like me,
[00:31:38] well, even that's still a little bit. But what about me makes me valuable? I am
[00:31:42] valuable for who I am. And it took some pressure off my shoulders that I don't know. Some people
[00:31:49] have a trouble getting there, but I don't know why that was the moment for me. I was able to take
[00:31:54] that pressure off. So how do you help people get there though? That's a hard thing, right?
[00:32:00] It is. And I think that there are certain moments for people where it clicks based on
[00:32:04] are you ready to hear it in a way? Sometimes we just can't. We just were not ready to hear that
[00:32:12] and to take it in. But I noticed that it takes multiple times of that. That click moment is huge,
[00:32:17] but I'm guessing it's probably taken multiple of those two to remind yourself of that over
[00:32:22] and over again. And so honestly, a lot of it kind of like in this work is education at first,
[00:32:28] teaching that that, hey, actually, this might be what's happening when you do put a lot of
[00:32:32] pressure on yourself, or especially when there's this kind of frantic energy or anxiety energy
[00:32:38] that people have. There's a lot of, what do I do? How do I do it? Kind of like the desperation,
[00:32:43] right? Starting to notice that and learning how to pay attention to like what feels, I keep
[00:32:49] pointing to myself if you're not watching the video, because for me, at least, sometimes
[00:32:54] that click is the like, okay, I'm dropping in. I just dropped into my body. It doesn't mean
[00:33:01] I'm fully valuing myself all and all, maybe not, but those moments add up when you start
[00:33:07] to trust yourself a little bit more. Yeah, putting yourself more in like the present moment is always
[00:33:13] the first step it feels like, right? Because all of this stuff, whether it's worries with what if
[00:33:19] or pressure over I should, it's all very forward thinking. It's all very like worrying about
[00:33:24] the future, or what should you look like? Because it's mostly future too. So again, coming back to
[00:33:31] now, what am I now? Yeah, you're totally got that. I think that that's true. It's, yeah, it's hard to
[00:33:38] get people there sometimes, but it is a process, I think. Yeah, do you have other tools that
[00:33:44] you use when people are like, feel like there's so much pressure on them to get better?
[00:33:49] Yeah, so the thing that we often need to hear time and time again is that it's not linear, right?
[00:33:55] You know, it's not linear honing in on that because what I see is when we put pressure on
[00:34:00] ourselves is when the expectation doesn't, we're not meeting expectations of what we think our
[00:34:04] timeline should be or someone says like, I have my family, someone's wedding in four months,
[00:34:12] I want to go to it and be okay. That's a lot of pressure. So first and foremost is
[00:34:18] learning to take away the expectations, ride the wave a little bit more, just that understanding
[00:34:25] and accepting that that's part of it, I think is the first step. Yeah, for me that looks like I leaned
[00:34:31] a bit into Buddhism when I was sick and this idea of this two-shell pass, like every state
[00:34:37] does pass, you know, whether it's how sick you feel at this moment, whether it's the sickness
[00:34:43] overall and even if it takes years, it will pass in some way and it will change, everything changes,
[00:34:51] states always change. So being so stuck in this identity of being so sick, it's not true necessarily
[00:35:00] and it's not helpful. Exactly, exactly. That also makes me think of recognizing seeing the symptom
[00:35:09] fear cycle because when we're worried about something, there's a lot of fear and anxiety
[00:35:13] that comes up, right? And this two-shell pass helps you release a little bit of that cycle, knowing
[00:35:18] that yeah, it's going to pass, it will, things change, they always change. We just don't know
[00:35:25] how or when exactly, we don't know exactly how it's going to go. So learning that maybe you're
[00:35:32] really wanting some control over it, which of course you do, of course you want to feel
[00:35:36] better, of course you want to figure it out, right? But we can't figure it all out in this
[00:35:42] moment. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, like it's like a kind of a form of faith, you know? It's like
[00:35:49] faith doesn't have to mean something spiritual but when I was on that island, I met this girl,
[00:35:55] she was like, oh yeah, I had that for about a year and a half and I was still in that state of like,
[00:35:59] did you eat bread? You know, like I was still like looking for the answer from her, right?
[00:36:07] And she goes like, oh no, I just knew I'd get better. I pretty much just sat on the couch and ate
[00:36:12] ice cream and chilled out and I knew I'd get better and it was like mind-boggling to me that
[00:36:19] she just had this internal faith that it would pass and like there's probably a lot of privilege
[00:36:26] there. She came from a very rich family and stuff that some people don't have some of the,
[00:36:31] you know, there's some other pressures that are causing people to spiral
[00:36:36] that maybe she had some privileges in but there was a faith there that I was so envious of because
[00:36:43] I totally understand that that's hard to give someone. You can't really give that to someone,
[00:36:48] that faith. I agree. It's learned. It starts to be learned in this process. You hear stories,
[00:36:55] you understand it a little bit more, you hear it over and over again that this too shall
[00:37:00] pass but yeah, that's not something I come across every day where someone just inherently has that
[00:37:04] faith. That faith, you know, sometimes religion can give that to you and I'm a little jealous of them
[00:37:10] too but yeah, it's normal to have doubts. I think that's important to tell people too is
[00:37:16] they think that they can't recover until they're totally 100% in belief. You definitely have
[00:37:22] to believe a little bit or have curiosity but you don't have to always be sure and you
[00:37:28] will get better 100% because yeah, it's not exactly how it looks anyway, right?
[00:37:34] Exactly. And what about like for you, I'm just curious because again it's like having a therapist
[00:37:40] here if I teach people the things the same way I'm always curious, like what about the external
[00:37:45] pressures like finances? I have a lot of people interestingly that come to me in different
[00:37:52] life stages with different pressures, right? There's people who are sick around their late 20s
[00:37:57] and they're like, what if I can't have kids because I'm sick, right? And then there's the older people
[00:38:03] who are like, I only have so many years left, like I need to get better soon because I literally only
[00:38:09] have like 20 years max left. So I find it interesting those kind of pressures and like how to help
[00:38:16] people with that. What do you usually say to people like that? So I actually kind of circle
[00:38:22] around or actually I kind of combine what we've already talked about is we can't control our timeline
[00:38:31] will whatever this is happening is will pass and there has to be some faith in your life's
[00:38:36] journey. Again, it doesn't have to become from a religion or anything like that. It's just that
[00:38:41] we all live a life, right? We live, we were born, we die, that is the reality of being human
[00:38:48] and we have a life path that we cannot control everything around. So when we do release that
[00:38:53] control a little bit and have faith and trust that this is where we are for whatever reason it might
[00:39:02] be, there's really a little bit of pressure off of that. And then also it is helpful to look at
[00:39:09] examples of people that may not be living on this exact timeline that we thought we were
[00:39:13] gonna live on. Everyone has a different lifestyle. I very much so had to learn that not only with
[00:39:18] getting sick and being afraid of the whole not being able to be pregnant thing, but then also
[00:39:22] when I went through my divorce, I had to go through the whole other thing of like sick and
[00:39:27] going through divorce and my early 30s thinking, well, what does this mean, right? Like us is not
[00:39:32] was supposed to happen and actually relieving the idea that I messed up or failed or I
[00:39:38] won't get what I wanted at a certain age. Relieving that was took some time, but it was so
[00:39:47] liberating. So liberating just be like, well, my life path is this my life path and we'll keep
[00:39:55] doing what I'm doing. Yeah, it feels it's this huge weight, huge weight when we can release that.
[00:40:02] Yeah, when you released it. Yeah, it's kind of like finding like the gratitude in what is happening
[00:40:07] and like so hard when you're going through it so hard to find gratitude. But now like I truly
[00:40:13] am grateful for those seven and a half years because of where what I've learned where I am now,
[00:40:19] how much I've evolved. I talk to people sometimes about it like a video game like it's like you
[00:40:23] upped your consciousness level. Like because of what you've gone through, it's actually like
[00:40:30] can end up so much better. Even if you can't see it in the moment, just like,
[00:40:35] if you can give my words a little bit of belief that it can actually make your life better overall.
[00:40:43] Yeah, there's a point where at least for me and some people I work with where
[00:40:51] it's just almost not worth it anymore to keep worrying about it. Yeah, you're just
[00:40:55] hurting yourself. It's just causing more stress, more worry, more, you know, more
[00:40:59] dysregulation when you're fighting where you are and you're wanting it to be different.
[00:41:05] And I think when you start to see, feel that and realize that it's kind of like,
[00:41:08] okay, I don't really want to keep fighting this or so worried about my timeline.
[00:41:14] Yeah, it's true. I felt that with the, I had some pretty bad COVID anxiety because I was like,
[00:41:20] what if I get COVID? I still haven't had it. Maybe I'll crash again. And then at some
[00:41:25] point I was like, this is not helping to worry about that all the time. Like I still wear my
[00:41:30] mask in like big events and on the bus and stuff. But like other than that, I'm not worrying about it
[00:41:36] because that's just taking up like pressure in my limbic brain that's not helpful. So yeah, exactly.
[00:41:43] Like that, that just line of not helpful is really, really helpful. And also giving people
[00:41:51] something to switch to. So if the big three pathways that we want to retrain are worry,
[00:41:57] pressure and self criticism, right? That's what they teach in pain reprocessing therapy.
[00:42:02] I thought about it a lot that like the opposite, obviously the opposite of self criticism is
[00:42:07] self compassion, right? So that's always what we want to pivot to with self criticism and
[00:42:12] self compassion. And the opposite of worry is really gratitude because it's like, what if,
[00:42:20] what if is always that future oriented. So gratitude is like, what can I be grateful for
[00:42:26] right now again, bringing us back to that present so we could pivot to that. And the opposite of
[00:42:31] pressure, which is that I should be doing this, I should be doing this, is this idea of like,
[00:42:38] being more focused on your wins. So what's going well, like what's going well right now? Do you
[00:42:43] see how they're opposite? Like, I should be doing this, I should like, I am doing this well,
[00:42:48] I am resting, I am trying to take care of myself. And like, I also separate that for
[00:42:54] people into like outcome based wins and process based wins. So outcome is like, I was able to
[00:43:01] walk to the store, I was able to do that. That's all great. And we can, we can also record those.
[00:43:07] But also getting into the process based wins, like I had an aha moment is a process based win,
[00:43:14] or I had a good rest break, or I gave myself that hug today when I noticed I was criticizing
[00:43:21] myself. The being that like, shifting the focus a bit to the process of taking care of yourself,
[00:43:28] instead of this pressure to be recovering all the time, can really chill your brain out.
[00:43:34] Like, as ironically, when we take off the pressure to recover, it can make us recover, right?
[00:43:43] Exactly. So if you focus more on taking care of yourself, again, without pressure,
[00:43:48] then that actually is like something we can pivot to. Well, yeah, I guess that's the next step from
[00:43:57] bringing it back to presence. And that because some people are like, okay, what do I think about if
[00:44:01] I'm not thinking about worries and pressure? Because it's literally your whole life at some
[00:44:06] times, right? Exactly, exactly. You don't know that goes back to the identity of it. Like,
[00:44:12] oftentimes you don't know who we are without it. Yeah, even if you really don't want to be
[00:44:17] there and want to be somewhere else or farther along, we can't, I mean, the classic Carl Jung,
[00:44:22] once you accept where you are, then it can change. Right? I mean, it's annoyingly true,
[00:44:28] but it's very, very true. Yeah. And we stopped fighting it. That's it. And I have so many clients
[00:44:33] that identify as worriers or identify with these things. And it's really important to remember
[00:44:39] that your personality is actually quite malleable. Like, I did not used to be this positive
[00:44:44] upbeat person. Like, I would wake up in the mornings just like a lot of you being like,
[00:44:49] ugh, another day, like, what do I have to do today? And like, getting a dog does help. So
[00:44:55] when you get to that stage, also, I think that has kept me in it a little bit in this
[00:45:00] positive mind frame. But it's a practice to learn how to switch these neural pathways
[00:45:07] to focus more on gratitude and wins instead of the worries and pressures. It really
[00:45:13] does take time. So give yourself grace for that. But keep, keep working at that.
[00:45:19] Yeah. Yeah. That's a work in progress. Definitely. Especially if maybe you grew up in an environment
[00:45:25] where there was a lot of negativity around and we're looking for what's wrong or
[00:45:31] we learn that from environment from family. And so it can take some time to shift those
[00:45:37] pathways, but it's definitely through this work very possible. I actually,
[00:45:43] I say all the time that this work being a therapist has transformed me personally and my
[00:45:49] professional work way more than I ever imagined. You just learned so much in this that I
[00:45:56] definitely never learned in school. And I mean, there's a lot of depth. There's just so many
[00:46:02] lessons in it. And so, yes, same with you, I am grateful for it as well because it has
[00:46:07] completely changed me. Yeah. And I think that's another piece in the pressure is like
[00:46:13] capitalism and individualism, which is very Western society focused is like,
[00:46:20] we don't realize that we're at a disadvantage coming into this because we haven't been
[00:46:27] surrounded by community and support. And that been the most important thing.
[00:46:32] Our most important thing was like, figure it out on your own. Like you should figure it out,
[00:46:37] get the best score on the test. That's what's most important, right? And because of that
[00:46:42] focus since we were young, we have a little bit of a disadvantage in terms of like how our
[00:46:48] brain's already set up. So it takes some time to get, you know, those pathways changed,
[00:46:54] right? And like we see these illnesses more in the Western world. And I think that's why,
[00:46:59] honestly, is, is, and it's okay to be angry about that too. That's another process thing to
[00:47:05] talk about in healing the pressure is like, you're allowed to be a little pissed that our society
[00:47:11] set us up for failure a little bit, especially as women too, which is a large, large majority of
[00:47:17] people who get this is there's a lot more pressures on women. So yeah, it's a lot. And also,
[00:47:24] I was very lucky on how quickly I got on disability and here in Canada, I know it is way
[00:47:30] harder in the States to get on disability. Even in some countries in Europe where they have to
[00:47:34] be interviewed and stuff, it's, it's crazy. Like these, that's not fair, the pressures.
[00:47:42] So I just, yeah, give yourself some sympathy and some compassion if you're going through that.
[00:47:49] Yeah, there's so many mechanisms and that could be a whole other episode for sure.
[00:47:52] As we're wrapping this up, is there anything else that you feel like is important around
[00:47:56] this idea of pressure and, and how it manifests and then also what we do with it?
[00:48:02] Yeah, I guess sometimes it's like with this mind body specifically area and when you're like
[00:48:08] focusing on recovery, quote unquote, thinking about really, do I need to do more right now or
[00:48:14] do less right now? Because sometimes actually the, the special sauce is in doing less because
[00:48:22] we've put our pressure on ourselves to, you know, do all these healing activities and we're
[00:48:28] being a really good girl about it. And actually sometimes relieving that pressure is like doing
[00:48:36] less. Like people who've done breathing training and we're really strict at it and still aren't
[00:48:41] seeing results. Sometimes I'm like, let it go, you know, just let it go. So really see where
[00:48:47] you're at in your journey. Is it a time to do more or is it actually a time to do less?
[00:48:53] It's probably something we didn't say. Yep. And it's very true because I mean, we, yeah,
[00:48:58] you have to learn to do less. And when you feel like you, there's that good as
[00:49:03] in pressure on you. So it's a huge part of the journey. Yeah.
[00:49:06] Yeah. And with that comes like, they're like, oh, but I have boredom. And it's like, oh,
[00:49:10] can you get excited about boredom? Because when you're so sick that you can't even be bored,
[00:49:16] remember that, you know, instead you're like, oh, I'm bored. This is exciting. Because at
[00:49:20] least, at least I'm not feeling too awful to be bored. So that's what mind shift too.
[00:49:26] Because as soon as we're bored, we start going to pressure again, right? What should I be
[00:49:31] doing? What should I be doing? I should be doing more. I know I still do it for sure.
[00:49:36] But like, giving yourself that like, maybe I can just sit in the boredom and that's okay. Yeah.
[00:49:43] So that made me think of boredom. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good call out. It's a good call out.
[00:49:49] Okay. Well, thank you so much, Lindsey. That was good chat.
[00:49:52] This is a wonderful conversation. I know it'll be helpful. We haven't had this before.
[00:49:55] So. Oh good. Yeah. I hope it's helpful for people. And so nice to talk to you.
[00:50:00] Yeah, you too. It's a great, great, great time we can share. I feel like we're,
[00:50:04] we're on the same page with a lot of this work. So yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Well, again, all of
[00:50:10] your links will be listed below so you can find Lindsey and those links and keep staying tuned.
[00:50:14] I will talk to you next week. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much
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[00:50:47] hope on your journey.