How to Take Radical Self-Care Through Messy Action with Kaylin Zabienski

[00:00:00] Hey there, and welcome to Heal with Grace.
[00:00:03] I'm your host, Grace Secker, and I'm a holistic, licensed therapist and nervous system coach
[00:00:08] who believes that the chronic and often unseen symptoms you're living with are a sign of
[00:00:12] something deeper going on.
[00:00:14] A sign that your nervous system needs attention.
[00:00:17] In each episode, I'll share the science behind the most common chronic health disorders
[00:00:21] plus holistic health tips using mental, physical, and spiritual practices.
[00:00:26] You'll hear what I've learned in my journey and the true stories from our trusted guests
[00:00:30] so you can feel less alone in your experience and give yourself grace no matter what you're
[00:00:34] going through.
[00:00:35] So, without further ado, settle in and get cozy.
[00:00:38] It's time to Heal with Grace.
[00:00:40] Hello, and welcome to Heal with Grace podcast.
[00:00:44] I'm here with Kaylin, one of my very dear friends, another fellow therapist, and when
[00:00:50] I thought about starting this podcast, I knew automatically that I wanted her to
[00:00:54] be on here.
[00:00:55] We know here with Grace that we talk a lot about like regulating the nervous system, healing
[00:01:01] chronic pain, mental, emotional, physical health, and a lot of times what comes with
[00:01:06] that is how to take care of yourself.
[00:01:09] And Kaylin really focuses on that.
[00:01:11] I'm actually going to stop here.
[00:01:12] I just let her introduce herself.
[00:01:13] So, by the way, hi, Kaylin.
[00:01:16] Hi.
[00:01:17] Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:20] I'm so happy to be here and see you.
[00:01:22] I am a licensed marriage and family therapist in California.
[00:01:27] I specialize working with millennial women with stress and anxiety, and I've been doing
[00:01:35] that with that specific focus for a couple of years, and I have been realizing more
[00:01:42] and more that I just can't help enough people as a therapist, and I want to help
[00:01:48] more.
[00:01:49] I'm moving into the coaching world with a wellness book club membership and group
[00:01:56] programs and who knows what else, continuing to focus on that stress
[00:02:02] management and self-care habits because I believe that taking care of ourselves
[00:02:09] is first and foremost the most important, and then we can take care of other people
[00:02:13] from there.
[00:02:14] So, let's actually just jump right into that.
[00:02:17] When we talk about taking care of ourselves, it's such an important part of any kind of
[00:02:23] health, right?
[00:02:24] But sometimes people don't understand what that means.
[00:02:26] They're kind of like, okay, how's it going to help me?
[00:02:31] Foundationally, sustainably.
[00:02:33] So how do you talk about self-care and how do you go deeper with it, just like the
[00:02:37] little things?
[00:02:38] Which do matter?
[00:02:39] How do you talk about that?
[00:02:41] They do.
[00:02:42] They do.
[00:02:43] I try to talk about it in terms of building habits because I think people are a little
[00:02:49] bit more open to the idea of building habits than they are to self-care, especially when
[00:02:54] self-care has become this wild version of, let's take a bubble bath and hope it fixes
[00:03:02] all of this chronic pain and stress I've been experiencing and hope that it makes
[00:03:06] my job feel better, and it's like, no, the bubble bath is not going to do that.
[00:03:11] The bubble bath is great as part of a self-care routine or as part of your daily habits, but
[00:03:16] it is not the only thing.
[00:03:18] Self-care is actually like, it can be really hard sometimes.
[00:03:23] It's looking at the shadowy bit, it's looking at the parts of yourself that you don't
[00:03:26] actually want to look at and learning to, if not love those parts, accept those
[00:03:33] parts and accept where they come from and learn how they show up and that can
[00:03:40] be in how it shows up in how your nervous system is functioning, how your immune
[00:03:45] system is functioning, how you interact with people around you, how you react to
[00:03:50] stressors.
[00:03:51] All of these things I believe can be learned and helped and cared for through self-care.
[00:03:58] So you're saying that those things, like a bubble bath, taking time for yourself, whatever
[00:04:03] that might look like, yet they're important, but the underneath is actually
[00:04:08] more important meaning you can't actually do those things unless you don't look at
[00:04:12] the parts of yourself that maybe you're afraid to look at.
[00:04:14] Is that kind of what you're saying?
[00:04:16] Kind of, yeah, that's definitely part of it.
[00:04:19] Sticking with the bubble bath example, if your nervous system is used to functioning
[00:04:23] up here in chaos, in high stress, a bubble bath might actually be worse for you
[00:04:29] because you don't know how to relax and it doesn't feel safe to relax to that level.
[00:04:34] So knowing that about yourself, right, like knowing I actually am so stressed out
[00:04:40] that a bubble bath would be harmful is really important.
[00:04:43] And you can only get to know that by looking at yourself, by getting to know
[00:04:48] yourself, by learning these things about you.
[00:04:52] Yeah.
[00:04:52] So if like that, the more that I stay, the more that I stay just quiet or
[00:04:58] where I am or like that my mind calms, the more anxiety is probably
[00:05:01] sometimes going to come with that if you don't want to deal with it.
[00:05:04] Yeah, exactly.
[00:05:05] So having having those more, I guess, more active for lack of a better word,
[00:05:10] like habits and routines to help manage stress in the moment as you start
[00:05:16] to try and calm yourself down.
[00:05:17] Like if the bubble bath is your ultimate goal, like as you start to
[00:05:22] calm down to the point where that actually feels good and is restorative,
[00:05:26] like you need to take yourself there easily.
[00:05:28] You can't just jump in.
[00:05:30] I know someone who keeps talking about how staying busy is really helpful
[00:05:33] because then they're just just happening themselves and they're not
[00:05:36] someone who's ever going to be able to just like sit there and meditate.
[00:05:38] It doesn't work for them.
[00:05:40] And staying silent is not helpful, right?
[00:05:43] They can't handle that.
[00:05:44] So staying busy is more helpful and healthy for them.
[00:05:47] Whenever I hear this, I have a little alarm go off.
[00:05:50] Am I in mind, right?
[00:05:51] I'm like, yeah, well, but not really.
[00:05:55] Can you speak to that a little bit because there's a lot of people
[00:05:58] here that sometimes they're forced to slow down.
[00:06:01] They have no other option to slow down, but it's really hard.
[00:06:05] They don't understand how to do that without all this like anxiety
[00:06:09] and depression coming when they do so down.
[00:06:12] Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of people think that way.
[00:06:16] And like I'm just going to pull out science and nature and biology.
[00:06:20] Like that's not how we function.
[00:06:23] It's not sustainable.
[00:06:24] Like sorry, go go fight with mother nature if you have a problem with it.
[00:06:29] Like we can do it for a certain amount of time.
[00:06:32] And it might again, it might feel safe because you're used to that.
[00:06:36] But we're actually supposed to function in waves of stress or activation
[00:06:42] and then coming back down into rest and recovery and then go back up again.
[00:06:47] And it's like literally if you look at the 24 hour cycle of sleep,
[00:06:50] like we have sleep, then we're awake and we're asleep.
[00:06:53] That's how we function.
[00:06:55] So I disagree as a whole.
[00:06:59] But I also believe that meditation truly isn't for everyone.
[00:07:03] Like if you think about it in terms of I'm going to sit here
[00:07:07] and I'm just going to be with my thoughts, like it isn't always great.
[00:07:11] And when my clients bring that up, whether or not they'll ever
[00:07:15] eventually get there, I don't know.
[00:07:16] But we'll start with like a moving meditation or a more active meditation
[00:07:21] like journaling or breathwork or something like that.
[00:07:24] That's still in the meditation family, but it doesn't have to be like
[00:07:29] that sitting still breathing.
[00:07:31] Like I can't even do that sometimes.
[00:07:33] Like sometimes I am too wired for that.
[00:07:35] And I love to meditate.
[00:07:37] Yeah, it definitely isn't all approaches.
[00:07:39] It's an all approach to coming back really to yourself.
[00:07:43] I think it's kind of what you're saying.
[00:07:44] Like how do you take care of yourself with me looking at yourself
[00:07:46] and building that stronger relationship?
[00:07:48] Right.
[00:07:48] And part of this conversation I want to talk about was how this
[00:07:52] fits into perfectionism and people that work with or not work with,
[00:07:56] but either identified with or sometimes they're not fully aware
[00:08:00] that they identify with perfectionism.
[00:08:01] But the idea that it's really hard to get something right.
[00:08:05] And I just do quotations for y'all listening to this or never really
[00:08:10] actually taking action because there is a strong fear of not
[00:08:14] getting it right or messing up or being a failure or X, Y and Z.
[00:08:17] Now oftentimes people aren't aware of that of the reasons,
[00:08:19] but that's where it's coming from.
[00:08:22] So a lot of times that can happen with self care too, right?
[00:08:25] And just actually really look at yourself not wanting to go there
[00:08:29] because X, Y, Z.
[00:08:31] So I will formulate a question here.
[00:08:33] How do you fit those two pieces together?
[00:08:37] Yeah, I like where you're going with the perfectionist idea
[00:08:41] because I never identified as a perfectionist for a really
[00:08:45] long time.
[00:08:46] I'm not a type A person.
[00:08:48] I was never straight A's, that teacher's pet, whatever image
[00:08:55] comes up with perfectionism.
[00:08:57] I was never that person ever.
[00:08:59] But I realized in more recent years,
[00:09:02] I got really into people pleasing and realizing
[00:09:06] I was a people pleaser and going down that route
[00:09:09] at all, perfectionism is a big part of that too.
[00:09:13] And for me, it's exactly what you were saying.
[00:09:16] It's just a fear of doing anything
[00:09:19] because it won't be good enough.
[00:09:21] And so that's how my perfectionism has always come up
[00:09:25] is I just don't do anything because if I don't do anything,
[00:09:28] then I don't have to fail at anything.
[00:09:30] And then the things that I do take action on,
[00:09:32] I know I'm going to actually succeed at.
[00:09:35] And so then I'm just good at everything I actually do.
[00:09:37] And it's great.
[00:09:39] Exactly.
[00:09:41] Yeah.
[00:09:42] So with that, and I guess I kind of described the journey
[00:09:46] a little bit, just getting to know yourself in that way of,
[00:09:51] well, maybe I'm not the stereotypical version of this,
[00:09:54] but there is something about it in me.
[00:09:59] And then what was the second part of the question
[00:10:02] relating that to self-care?
[00:10:05] Yeah.
[00:10:05] If we start to become aware of those tendencies,
[00:10:08] then how do you work with that?
[00:10:10] Because I notice often, when someone
[00:10:12] becomes aware of it, almost more guilt or shame ensues.
[00:10:15] Like, I don't buy any of that.
[00:10:17] Or like, I have those tendencies.
[00:10:18] Or I do people, please.
[00:10:19] I let people walk all over me, whatever it may be.
[00:10:21] And then they just go up and shame themselves for it.
[00:10:24] Yeah.
[00:10:25] And I think a lot of it is we're
[00:10:28] taught to make these things wrong.
[00:10:30] And then when it comes to self-care,
[00:10:31] again, you have all of these people on social media.
[00:10:35] I'm just going to stick with the bubble bath.
[00:10:37] Maybe I actually just really need to take one.
[00:10:39] But that's great to me.
[00:10:41] Right?
[00:10:42] So awesome.
[00:10:43] They have the tray.
[00:10:44] And then they have their little book.
[00:10:46] And they have a single rose and a vase and their matcha.
[00:10:50] And it's so biby.
[00:10:52] And if you can't do that, what's
[00:10:55] the point of taking a bubble bath?
[00:10:58] I live in an apartment with a bathtub that I say is not the.
[00:11:01] And it's not a human-sized bathtub.
[00:11:03] I can't sink and settle all the way into it.
[00:11:06] I can get my legs, or I can get the top.
[00:11:08] But not everything, right?
[00:11:10] And so having a situation like that that's not
[00:11:14] like Instagram worthy, when that perfectionism comes up,
[00:11:18] that might actually stop you from doing the thing.
[00:11:20] Or if you think about like your meditation practice,
[00:11:24] like not having a perfectly curated corner
[00:11:28] with your like ficus tree right next to you
[00:11:31] and the fireplace and the candle,
[00:11:34] like it's not worth it to do the meditation.
[00:11:37] Or, you know, when I do my meditation,
[00:11:39] I'm probably in really baggy sweats
[00:11:42] that I refuse to wear out of the house
[00:11:43] with a blanket over my head.
[00:11:45] Like it doesn't always look like what we see it to look like
[00:11:49] or what we think it looks like.
[00:11:51] And that can stop people.
[00:11:53] And then if you get into, I guess like with the fear,
[00:11:57] maybe perfectionism fear or maybe just fear of knowledge.
[00:12:02] Like part of self care is going to the doctor.
[00:12:05] And I know this is big with your community too.
[00:12:07] Like go to the doctor, figure out
[00:12:09] like what's going on and advocate for yourself.
[00:12:13] If you are told something's not going on
[00:12:15] and you know there is like,
[00:12:17] truly when you get in touch with yourself,
[00:12:20] you know what's going on with your,
[00:12:21] well, you know that there's something going on
[00:12:23] with your body, you might not know what it is.
[00:12:26] But that all of that is part of self care too.
[00:12:28] Like that's part of the whole process
[00:12:30] of getting into that and really digging deep
[00:12:32] to figure it out.
[00:12:34] 1000% taking care of yourself
[00:12:37] and advocating for yourself is completely self care.
[00:12:41] Oftentimes people are kind of forced into that,
[00:12:44] but not all the time they don't recognize
[00:12:46] that actually unfortunately,
[00:12:48] you can't be pushed around a lot,
[00:12:50] especially by professionals in medical community.
[00:12:52] It just kind of is a thing.
[00:12:53] And so either I see a lot of people just hiding
[00:12:57] and not going and not trusting anyone,
[00:12:59] literally not trusting anyone.
[00:13:00] Or just, yeah, kind of being thrown around a lot.
[00:13:03] And so really building that relationship with yourself
[00:13:06] to say, you know what, I don't know what it is.
[00:13:08] Something is off, something's wrong
[00:13:09] and I'm not getting the help I need.
[00:13:11] I need to look somewhere else or speak up
[00:13:13] or whatever that might look like.
[00:13:15] That's huge.
[00:13:15] And it takes a lot of energy and effort
[00:13:18] to learn how to do that.
[00:13:19] But once you do, look at that stronger foundation
[00:13:22] with yourself.
[00:13:23] Yeah.
[00:13:24] And when it takes so much energy and effort,
[00:13:25] when you're already low on energy
[00:13:30] and effort that you have, it comes back again.
[00:13:33] This is why you need to take care of yourself.
[00:13:35] This is why you need to have those routines and those habits
[00:13:38] that restore your energy as much as possible each and every day.
[00:13:43] And your 100% every day is not going to look the same.
[00:13:46] But getting yourself to the best it
[00:13:48] can be for that day each day is what's
[00:13:52] going to help you get through all of that other shit
[00:13:56] that you have to go through to take care of yourself.
[00:14:00] Yeah, exactly.
[00:14:01] I like that idea of just making it best for you that day.
[00:14:05] What comes up often is when people
[00:14:08] are going throughout my program and learning
[00:14:10] through some of these techniques, they,
[00:14:12] especially in the beginning of the first month or so,
[00:14:15] they're kind of frozen.
[00:14:16] They're like, I don't know what to do when
[00:14:18] and which steps to take.
[00:14:20] And tell me, steps one, two, and three, ABC,
[00:14:23] tell me how to fix this right now.
[00:14:24] Tell me what I need to do every single day, morning, night.
[00:14:27] They're like, I'll do it.
[00:14:28] Oh, I promise.
[00:14:29] Just tell me exactly what to do.
[00:14:32] And there's so much of this comes up all the time.
[00:14:37] And so it does have to mean that is actually
[00:14:40] building your relationship, right?
[00:14:41] That is taking care of yourself and recognizing,
[00:14:44] even healing yourself.
[00:14:45] Being in this healing community is not going to be perfect.
[00:14:48] Even when you're learning these skills,
[00:14:49] those things are not going to be perfect.
[00:14:51] It is going to look different every day.
[00:14:53] And you're not going to get it right.
[00:14:55] And it's going to feel weird and awkward
[00:14:57] and not the best at first.
[00:14:59] Yeah.
[00:15:00] Well, that's what made me think of it,
[00:15:01] is really just meeting yourself on a day-to-day basis.
[00:15:04] And that perfection is really just hit strong.
[00:15:07] Yeah, we so badly want the roadmap to follow.
[00:15:12] And it's like, no, you get all of these options.
[00:15:15] And then you can build your own road.
[00:15:18] Have fun.
[00:15:19] Exactly.
[00:15:20] And that can be overwhelming, right?
[00:15:21] I get it.
[00:15:22] I've been able to do that a million times.
[00:15:25] Yeah, I would love to have.
[00:15:26] And I would love to give a one, two, and three.
[00:15:30] I'd be able to fix that for you.
[00:15:32] Yes.
[00:15:33] And that's how it works.
[00:15:35] No, it does not work like that.
[00:15:37] We've talked a little bit about perfectionism.
[00:15:39] I always talk quite a lot.
[00:15:40] But can you give a little bit more examples
[00:15:43] of what it might show up in terms of like people
[00:15:46] pleasing or something like that?
[00:15:48] Like what exactly is people pleasing
[00:15:49] and what exactly is perfectionism?
[00:15:51] How do they go together?
[00:15:52] Yeah, so I feel like they're both kind of in the fond state
[00:15:58] if you're talking about your stress response.
[00:16:00] Like most people know fight or flight.
[00:16:03] Maybe a few more people know freeze.
[00:16:06] And then the fourth one, fun.
[00:16:08] A lot of people don't know about.
[00:16:10] But fawning is kind of like making yourself agreeable
[00:16:15] or making yourself maybe even important or necessary
[00:16:19] so that if you think about it in biological terms
[00:16:24] so that the lion doesn't eat you.
[00:16:26] So I don't know what we would do to make a lion not eat us.
[00:16:28] But we're going to take care of your din and your babies
[00:16:31] while you hunt, whatever.
[00:16:33] But in more modern times, that's
[00:16:36] when the people pleasing and the perfectionism comes.
[00:16:38] If you're in that people-cleasing space,
[00:16:41] well, why don't you let me make you dinner
[00:16:44] and then you won't yell at me or whatever it is.
[00:16:49] Or you won't leave me if you're in a relationship or something.
[00:16:52] Or at work, like, oh, well, I'll stay late
[00:16:55] and take on the extra project so you won't fire me.
[00:16:58] Or that can also be the perfectionism.
[00:17:01] Let me do everything and control everything
[00:17:05] so that I can guarantee, in quotes, my safety here
[00:17:09] at this job.
[00:17:11] And that's kind of how I see those things.
[00:17:13] So the people-pleaser is really
[00:17:16] taking care of everyone else as a way
[00:17:19] to feel like they're taking care of themselves.
[00:17:22] But by the time all of that energy comes back around,
[00:17:25] there's nothing left for them.
[00:17:27] Or it's time to start taking care of everyone else again.
[00:17:30] So they just kind of get skipped over.
[00:17:33] OK.
[00:17:33] So thank you for explaining the thought response,
[00:17:36] because you're right, that's not explained very well.
[00:17:38] Or just very often.
[00:17:39] It's just not really talked about that much, right?
[00:17:41] It's really not, yeah.
[00:17:43] It's very actually pertinent, and it's
[00:17:46] very important for this community,
[00:17:48] because there's a type of personality characteristics
[00:17:50] that come with chronic illness.
[00:17:53] People-pleasing, perfectionism, high conscientiousness,
[00:17:56] high anxiety, the need for control, and more often,
[00:18:00] very much so not to take care of themselves
[00:18:02] and taking care of many other people.
[00:18:05] Dr. Gabor Mate, which I'll link below.
[00:18:08] He talks a lot about this.
[00:18:10] He cares so much about the type of person that actually
[00:18:13] ends up sick and ends up with illnesses.
[00:18:16] And this is a big part of his work,
[00:18:17] because recognizing, like, hey, what kind of tendencies are
[00:18:19] you doing?
[00:18:20] How much are you giving and letting
[00:18:22] other people, in a sense, walk all over you?
[00:18:25] I don't think he probably uses that term.
[00:18:27] But because then you're dismissing yourself
[00:18:30] when you do that.
[00:18:31] You're not actually listening to you.
[00:18:33] And so much of this process, so much of taking care of yourself
[00:18:36] and self-care is listening to your body, listening to you.
[00:18:40] So those internal cues are really important to develop.
[00:18:43] Yes, that is probably the first place,
[00:18:47] if not one of the first places, that I'd
[00:18:49] start with most of my clients when we're
[00:18:51] talking about their stress, when we're
[00:18:53] talking about their anxiety.
[00:18:54] Of course, they're talking about my relationship.
[00:18:57] I keep snapping at my partner.
[00:18:59] I'm so angry all the time.
[00:19:01] They piss me off.
[00:19:02] Duh, duh, duh, duh.
[00:19:03] And it's like, OK, well, how do you know what comes up
[00:19:05] for you before you snap?
[00:19:07] And sometimes it's a blank stare.
[00:19:09] Like, what are you talking about?
[00:19:10] It's because they're doing something.
[00:19:12] But no, no, no.
[00:19:13] What comes up in your body?
[00:19:16] Because your breathing changed.
[00:19:17] Does your heart rate change?
[00:19:19] Does your face get hot?
[00:19:21] Is there a tingling sensation?
[00:19:23] Tuning into these signs and cues
[00:19:27] that something is going on for you, that's the first step.
[00:19:31] You have to figure out how to listen to that.
[00:19:34] And if you've never done that before, it can seem daunting.
[00:19:38] Because it doesn't really make sense to me.
[00:19:41] Most of us are not taught that, to be not aware, right?
[00:19:44] But practice, the more that you do,
[00:19:46] the more that you really can become aware
[00:19:48] and make a choice within that moment,
[00:19:50] or at least reflect back and understand where I come from,
[00:19:53] and then help yourself through that.
[00:19:55] Yeah, totally.
[00:19:58] So then, when we're talking about really taking care
[00:20:01] of yourself and hopefully moving away from perfectionism,
[00:20:06] how do we do practices like self-compassion instead
[00:20:08] of the shame and the guilt that comes with perfectionism?
[00:20:11] How do you talk to people about taking action on that?
[00:20:14] What does that look like?
[00:20:17] I teach people to just like nike it and just do it.
[00:20:24] And I always frame it like an experiment.
[00:20:27] And it works better when you think about it like that,
[00:20:31] because it's not like, oh, I'm going to actually make this change.
[00:20:34] I'm going to have an experiment and I'm going to try this out.
[00:20:37] So then there's less commitment.
[00:20:39] There's less resistance.
[00:20:41] And there's almost less shame sometimes if it doesn't work.
[00:20:46] Like, well, I was just trying it to see, right?
[00:20:48] So it makes it a little bit more accessible
[00:20:50] when you think about it as an experiment.
[00:20:53] And then we just do it and see it.
[00:20:57] And it's usually messy.
[00:20:59] Life is.
[00:21:01] And that's OK.
[00:21:02] And then we come back and we figure it out again.
[00:21:04] And it's just like an experiment with everything.
[00:21:07] Every day with every practice, you know,
[00:21:09] we're just going to see how it feels, see if it works,
[00:21:12] keep doing it over and over again until you have enough data.
[00:21:17] So you know, either, yeah, that's the kind of works
[00:21:19] or no, this doesn't work at all.
[00:21:21] Where you can take away the expectations, which
[00:21:25] is what you're doing when you're trying something, right?
[00:21:28] That's what releases the fear or releases the idea
[00:21:31] that it has to go a certain way.
[00:21:33] And oftentimes we can take away what we're expecting
[00:21:37] than actually when we're present with whatever we're trying,
[00:21:39] which really when we're trying to listen to ourselves
[00:21:42] and build relationships with ourselves,
[00:21:43] it's bringing more presence.
[00:21:45] So yeah, I love that.
[00:21:46] Just trying experimenting with some of these things.
[00:21:50] Sometimes, again, that can be a little daunting
[00:21:52] because, of course, if you've been through any kind of
[00:21:55] just a difficult mental health while physical health journey,
[00:21:58] then you want something to work.
[00:22:01] You want to know that you're just kind of working work.
[00:22:04] Yeah. And you've already tried a lot.
[00:22:07] But I think there's a difference when you're intentionally
[00:22:10] trying an experiment versus, oh, I read this in a book.
[00:22:14] It's supposed to work.
[00:22:15] Yeah.
[00:22:16] Or I've been told that X, Y, and Z is going to cure everything
[00:22:20] so it better cure everything.
[00:22:22] Instead, we're saying like, hey, let's try some of these principles
[00:22:26] and see what works for you.
[00:22:28] Yeah, exactly.
[00:22:30] That's our first one.
[00:22:31] OK, you talked about messy.
[00:22:33] Tell us what taking messy action is.
[00:22:34] And you might have already said that.
[00:22:36] But actually, I'll give a little background.
[00:22:38] So I'll let you talk about it.
[00:22:39] But I learned the term messy action from Kaelin
[00:22:43] whenever we met however long ago that was.
[00:22:46] And I've actually used it with five or two clients in my group.
[00:22:50] And when I used it, I see a light bulb go off in my client's mind
[00:22:53] because usually we're talking about what I mentioned before,
[00:22:56] how or how or how not to do these practices
[00:22:59] or what to do every day to help themselves heal.
[00:23:02] And I'll say I'll talk about, you know,
[00:23:05] really making it work for you.
[00:23:06] And sometimes it's not going to look great.
[00:23:07] And then I'll say, think about just taking messy action.
[00:23:10] All you have to do is take the action.
[00:23:11] Doesn't have to look great.
[00:23:13] Their eyes go open and they're like, oh, yeah.
[00:23:15] OK, that makes so much sense.
[00:23:17] Oh, it doesn't have to be perfect.
[00:23:19] Yeah, so I might have just kind of explained it.
[00:23:21] But what else can you add to that
[00:23:24] and tell me more about what messy action is?
[00:23:26] Yeah, I mean, that is basically it,
[00:23:28] like just allowing it to be messy, you know,
[00:23:32] and on top of like people who identify as perfectionists
[00:23:37] or who want this Instagram worthy life or whatever it is.
[00:23:41] Like we also live in a culture, in a society
[00:23:44] that doesn't allow for a lot of wiggle room,
[00:23:47] doesn't allow for a lot of mistakes.
[00:23:50] And that's where a lot of us learn these behaviors.
[00:23:52] And life is actually pretty messy.
[00:23:55] Like no one's life is perfect.
[00:23:59] Nothing like nothing in nature is perfect.
[00:24:01] Like none of it actually exists in that way.
[00:24:05] And so taking messy action
[00:24:08] is just giving yourself permission.
[00:24:10] Like again, with the experiment,
[00:24:12] like you're giving yourself permission to do something messy,
[00:24:15] to do something that might feel wrong
[00:24:18] or to do something that doesn't turn out perfect.
[00:24:21] And just by placing the name messy on it, it's like, OK,
[00:24:26] well, if it's messy, this is what I intended for it to be.
[00:24:29] Like if I mess up or if I don't do it right,
[00:24:32] that was the intention behind it the whole time
[00:24:35] because I was meaning to take messy action.
[00:24:38] So again, it's kind of playing tricks with yourself,
[00:24:41] using the words and using the intention of like, OK,
[00:24:44] I'm just going to let this be whatever it turns out to be.
[00:24:47] Because of that, it will be right, which feels safe to me.
[00:24:52] And it makes it more accessible and more doable.
[00:24:56] Yeah, I like that.
[00:24:57] We are we're kind of tricking our minds to make these things work
[00:25:01] to actually just start doing the practices you can see.
[00:25:05] Yeah, what works for you?
[00:25:07] Yeah.
[00:25:08] And if we need to label it messy or really label it,
[00:25:11] whatever you want to label it to help yourself move through it
[00:25:14] and actually do the thing, then fantastic label it
[00:25:18] whatever you want to label.
[00:25:20] But you're right, we do live in such a society
[00:25:22] that showcases what things should look like, right?
[00:25:26] And any time we're using the word should or could
[00:25:31] let's just take that out of our vocabulary.
[00:25:33] So it really hasn't really understood that
[00:25:36] or heard that from a therapist before.
[00:25:38] It's the idea or not even the idea.
[00:25:40] It's what happens when we say we should be doing something
[00:25:42] or we could be doing something when we should or could and we don't.
[00:25:46] We just list ourselves and then we guilt ourselves
[00:25:48] or shame ourselves for it, right?
[00:25:49] It should be doing X, Y and Z.
[00:25:50] I shouldn't be doing this.
[00:25:51] I should be eating or working out or whatever.
[00:25:55] And when we don't do those things, then we feel like crap.
[00:25:59] So yeah, we often say, like, take away the should or the could.
[00:26:02] And I think that's very significant of everything
[00:26:05] that we're talking about. It's taking us out.
[00:26:09] Yeah. And especially with could, maybe a little bit with should.
[00:26:12] But like the next question is like, OK, if you could, why aren't you?
[00:26:16] What's stopping you could if you could and you want to
[00:26:23] and doable, there's probably still something there that's stopping you
[00:26:28] or it's that you don't want to, that it's not doable for you in this moment.
[00:26:33] Like, so just breaking it down like, OK, well, what's stopping you then
[00:26:36] and figuring out where that stopping point is or where that breaking point is.
[00:26:41] And again, taking away that shame piece because now you figured it out.
[00:26:46] I like that. Yeah.
[00:26:47] Because there are a lot of people that say, well, like, you know,
[00:26:50] I could be doing I'm just talking to a client today that's like,
[00:26:55] you know, I could be eating the way that I want to be eating or like
[00:27:00] doing this holistic diet, but I don't understand why I'm not.
[00:27:03] Like I could, but I'm not.
[00:27:05] And it's not that we had to talk about.
[00:27:07] It's not that you sell lack of self control.
[00:27:09] That's not shame yourself for lack of self control.
[00:27:11] There are deeper meanings behind that.
[00:27:13] There's some intention behind that.
[00:27:14] There's something that is stopping you.
[00:27:15] So we have to understand what that something is. Yeah.
[00:27:19] Yeah.
[00:27:20] Like, I don't know anything about your client,
[00:27:22] but like if if she's a mom of three, like I could be eating like this,
[00:27:26] but I have to feed my kids.
[00:27:28] Yeah, you got kids to feed.
[00:27:30] So maybe you couldn't be doing this without extra help.
[00:27:33] Like maybe that's what's blocking you.
[00:27:38] Have you actually, and I know this might be a general question
[00:27:40] so we can narrow it down.
[00:27:42] But when it comes to the kid and people don't often,
[00:27:47] do you find that there are, it's like lifestyle circumstances.
[00:27:50] There's more, you know,
[00:27:51] core beliefs or emotions behind it, all the above.
[00:27:55] Have you can recognize those maybe similarities or tendencies?
[00:27:59] Yeah, I think it's all of the above and then some.
[00:28:03] We don't give ourselves as much leeway
[00:28:07] or as much benefit of the doubt as we give others.
[00:28:10] So if you see person A doing something
[00:28:15] like we'll use the healthy eating like if you see person A
[00:28:18] eating healthy all the time, let's just assume
[00:28:21] it's an absolute perfect diet, which does not exist.
[00:28:24] But we'll just we'll work with that.
[00:28:27] And then you're like, well, I could do that too.
[00:28:29] Like we have the same job, we're the same age.
[00:28:32] We, you know, whatever we both have, we're both single.
[00:28:36] We both have a cat, like whatever you want to look at the similarities.
[00:28:40] But then what you don't see is, OK,
[00:28:43] maybe you've had a really traumatic past in history
[00:28:45] and you're nervous or some can't quite function as well as theirs
[00:28:49] because they've never had or they've had different traumas or whatever it is.
[00:28:54] And so there's always things that we can't see
[00:28:57] even when we're comparing ourselves to somebody who seemed very similar.
[00:29:01] And it's like, well, I could or I should because they can.
[00:29:03] It's like, well, you're not seeing the whole picture.
[00:29:06] Yes. Thank you for speaking to that because I compare us
[00:29:09] and get myself stuck every time.
[00:29:11] Man, I don't know if that, you know, it's just so easy to do that.
[00:29:17] It's always been easy to do that, I think, in human nature,
[00:29:19] but especially right now, you're seeing just everything all day.
[00:29:23] Yeah, right in front of you.
[00:29:24] So yeah, and it happened without being conscious.
[00:29:27] So much unconscious like comparison is sitting there as well.
[00:29:31] Yeah. When it comes to trauma and I realize this more and more is that
[00:29:36] sometimes we can talk about chronic symptoms,
[00:29:39] you know, manifesting from a traumatic background.
[00:29:42] People understand that trauma is in the body now.
[00:29:44] We recognize how we understand it.
[00:29:46] But then there are some people that are like,
[00:29:48] I don't know, I haven't had to use traumas.
[00:29:49] This person over here, again, comparison, they're like, this person over here.
[00:29:53] Man, they've had a wildlife and they're not sick like I am.
[00:29:57] Again, no, like you don't know.
[00:30:00] You don't know what's going on.
[00:30:01] So many things impact it, not only lifestyle,
[00:30:04] emotional, mental, physical relationships, genetics, like.
[00:30:08] Yeah, just don't know and you don't know.
[00:30:10] And I think what people miss a lot when it comes to trauma,
[00:30:14] especially when they're comparing, like it's not the event that's traumatic.
[00:30:19] It's how your body responds to the event.
[00:30:24] It's the feeling of safety that goes away, basically,
[00:30:30] and how that sticks with you.
[00:30:32] And I think a really good comparison is like,
[00:30:36] let's say you have twins grow up in the same household,
[00:30:40] have relatively the same experience at home.
[00:30:43] One of them sees something and reacts to it completely differently
[00:30:48] from the way their sibling reacts to it.
[00:30:51] Like that can change the path of their life energetically
[00:30:55] or, you know, nervous system and chronic illness, speaking in those terms.
[00:31:00] Like that can change each of their lives dramatically
[00:31:02] just from one event that was the same event.
[00:31:05] Yeah, and we are such individuals.
[00:31:09] What makes up a body?
[00:31:13] We're all different.
[00:31:14] So yeah, we're not going to be the same.
[00:31:16] And I say that I recognize that the reasons behind
[00:31:20] and the reason behind the way we are, we are different.
[00:31:24] Now, we can't pull out some similarities,
[00:31:26] like we even mentioned about personality characteristics
[00:31:30] and types of things that contribute to what you're experiencing now,
[00:31:33] especially when it comes to chronic symptoms.
[00:31:35] So yes, those all are helpful to understand.
[00:31:38] Right.
[00:31:39] But one thing I think is important to understand, too,
[00:31:42] is the trajectory of how you will heal, make progress,
[00:31:46] you know, work on your mental, physical, emotional health.
[00:31:50] Even if you're doing the same thing as someone next to you,
[00:31:53] it's going to look different.
[00:31:54] It's going to take different amount.
[00:31:55] That's so huge, too.
[00:31:57] You're going to be one that's going to look very different
[00:31:59] than someone else's day one or day 500, whatever.
[00:32:02] Yeah, exactly.
[00:32:05] OK, I'm going to change it there.
[00:32:07] We like it.
[00:32:08] Yeah. OK.
[00:32:09] So then let's bring this back to where we started,
[00:32:13] because what I'm recognizing throughout this thread
[00:32:15] that we're talking about is really taking care of yourself.
[00:32:21] That starts with how you're treating yourself, right?
[00:32:24] I mean, that's what we're saying.
[00:32:25] Stop shaming guilty yourself or work on that and release
[00:32:30] the comparison.
[00:32:31] I'm saying that's like it's easy.
[00:32:32] Like, OK, great.
[00:32:33] Yeah, but you know what I mean is that.
[00:32:35] Yeah, like just stop.
[00:32:36] But yeah, but really, I mean,
[00:32:40] so much throughout this, like such a scheme is how are you
[00:32:44] looking at yourself?
[00:32:45] How are you taking care of yourself?
[00:32:46] Which is how are you talking to yourself?
[00:32:48] How are you seeing yourself?
[00:32:49] You were talking about you, right?
[00:32:51] So can you make any other like comment
[00:32:54] certifications on that?
[00:32:55] Because then I just pulled that out and try to tie it back
[00:32:58] to where we started, but really, you know,
[00:33:01] taking care of yourself really does look like how you're talking to yourself.
[00:33:05] How do you? Yeah.
[00:33:07] Yeah, I think one of the first steps is getting to know yourself in that way.
[00:33:12] Are you just being able to to listen like what you were saying,
[00:33:16] like to listen to your body again, going back to the bubble bath?
[00:33:20] Like if you think you're supposed to be taking bubble bath
[00:33:24] because that self care or you should or, you know, maybe even you could
[00:33:28] because you have an amazing fancy bathtub, but you get in that bathtub
[00:33:33] and it does not feel good.
[00:33:35] Bubble baths are not for you.
[00:33:37] So being able to recognize what feels good and restorative versus
[00:33:42] maybe what feels more like a should, like, oh, I should be doing this.
[00:33:47] Like I want to do this, whatever it is.
[00:33:49] I feel like I'm still like not being specific enough,
[00:33:53] but just being able to tune into your body and your mind
[00:33:58] and what's going on for you.
[00:34:00] I was going to say, I think that's a great way to wrap it up.
[00:34:03] A good note to end always with that, because really, that's exactly what we're saying
[00:34:07] is that all these things that you probably see online of what to do
[00:34:11] and even like, you know, things that I've probably shared,
[00:34:14] you probably shared online of what to do.
[00:34:16] Yes, they're important and it's helpful to have examples,
[00:34:18] but that doesn't mean it's supposed to work and it should work for you.
[00:34:21] Yes, have to figure out what works for you.
[00:34:23] And it does take trial and error.
[00:34:26] It takes experimenting, trying them out.
[00:34:27] Exactly. Yeah.
[00:34:29] That's the action.
[00:34:31] That's the action with the thing that you want to try.
[00:34:34] Exactly.
[00:34:35] Build your lens and then close your eyes and point, try it.
[00:34:39] I love that. Yeah.
[00:34:41] Yeah, there's no perfect way.
[00:34:43] OK, cool.
[00:34:45] OK, so anything else that you want us to know around these topics?
[00:34:51] Yes, just listen to us and take care of yourself.
[00:34:55] But really, I kind of talked about my theory behind self care in the beginning,
[00:34:59] but I truly, truly believe that taking care of ourselves
[00:35:03] is the first step in taking care of others.
[00:35:05] And it's the first step in taking care of our communities and our world.
[00:35:09] And however big you want to get it, if you don't give yourself
[00:35:13] the restoration and the energy and the ability to do any of that,
[00:35:19] then you're not going to be any help to anybody else.
[00:35:22] So I know one of the fears or concerns that self care is so selfish,
[00:35:26] like I shouldn't I don't want to take care of my I don't want to take time for myself.
[00:35:30] It's like, but you have to because you are one person.
[00:35:33] And if you don't take care of yourself, you are eventually going to burn out.
[00:35:36] And then you are not going to be able to take care of the 50 other people
[00:35:39] that you want to take care of.
[00:35:41] So you've got to start with you.
[00:35:43] That's my soapbox.
[00:35:45] Love it. Keep speaking it.
[00:35:47] Keep talking about it.
[00:35:48] It's been so, so freaking important.
[00:35:51] It is okay.
[00:35:52] And then what I like to end on is just a little more maybe personal or professional.
[00:35:57] But what are you into right now?
[00:35:58] What's lighting you up?
[00:36:00] What's your reason?
[00:36:01] Oh, personally, what's lighting me up is sitting in front of my fireplace
[00:36:06] as long as I can, which unfortunately is not very long
[00:36:10] because it is still hitting like 70 degrees here in California.
[00:36:15] But the mornings are nice in front of the fire.
[00:36:18] And professionally, I mentioned it before,
[00:36:21] but I'm starting this wellness monthly book club membership
[00:36:27] that I'm so excited about.
[00:36:28] I don't, I can, I forget how to talk whenever I bring it up,
[00:36:31] but it's a book club.
[00:36:33] So once a month, we will pick a new book in the personal development field.
[00:36:38] And then we have wellness chats and planning on having guest experts.
[00:36:42] So Grace, you will absolutely be invited to that.
[00:36:44] I hope you can come.
[00:36:46] And it's really for full-time employees,
[00:36:48] nine to fivers who are overwhelmed and stressed out
[00:36:50] and don't have a lot of time, but want that accountability
[00:36:54] and who want to better themselves and to learn all of these things
[00:36:58] that maybe make it on the resolution list every year,
[00:37:01] but don't actually take action on.
[00:37:04] It's a community based on that and just being available
[00:37:07] to help people take action on those things.
[00:37:10] Oh, I love that.
[00:37:11] Yeah, I love that.
[00:37:12] I mean, too, I'm so excited.
[00:37:14] Cool. And when is that starting?
[00:37:16] That starts on January 1st.
[00:37:19] So I don't know when this comes out
[00:37:20] or whenever anybody's listening to it,
[00:37:22] but if it's past January 1st, 2024, we are roaring and going.
[00:37:28] Awesome. Yeah, it'll be in January.
[00:37:30] So they will hear it right in town.
[00:37:32] Yay!
[00:37:33] Amazing.
[00:37:34] So if they hear it before January,
[00:37:36] you can still get the founding membership rate.
[00:37:38] Awesome.
[00:37:39] Sounds good.
[00:37:40] And that'll all be linked here in the show notes as well.
[00:37:42] So find Helen on her links.
[00:37:45] And thank you so much for coming and being one of my first guests.
[00:37:50] Love talking with you about this.
[00:37:52] And I'm sure we'll have more to talk about as time goes on.
[00:37:56] Absolutely.
[00:37:57] Thank you.
[00:37:59] Hey, friend, it's Grace.
[00:38:00] I know you're tired of feeling like managing your physical
[00:38:03] and mental health is just one big moving target.
[00:38:05] I also know that you've spent years of your life
[00:38:07] and hundreds of dollars on doctor's visits, juice
[00:38:10] cleanses, fad diets, and fancy supplements,
[00:38:12] only to feel like nothing about your chronic symptoms
[00:38:15] has changed.
[00:38:16] If this sounds like you, consider this your invitation
[00:38:19] to find a holistic health protocol that
[00:38:20] works for you and your body, even if you have chronic symptoms,
[00:38:24] unhealed trauma, or a dysregulated nervous
[00:38:26] system.
[00:38:27] That's exactly what's waiting for you
[00:38:28] inside the Mind Body Healing Method,
[00:38:31] my 12-week group program that's designed
[00:38:33] to help you say body or chronic symptoms
[00:38:35] through learning how to regulate your nervous system,
[00:38:37] retrain your brain, and heal unresolved trauma.
[00:38:40] Our clients have found relief from even the most
[00:38:43] chronic of symptoms, including fibromyalgia,
[00:38:45] sciatica, migraines, gut issues, and other uncomfortable
[00:38:48] symptoms without pills or a long list of rituals
[00:38:51] and regimens.
[00:38:52] If you'd like to learn more about our program,
[00:38:54] head over to the show notes and learn more.
[00:38:56] Because the truth is that there is a protocol that works
[00:38:59] for you, you just might not have found the right balance
[00:39:02] for your body yet.
[00:39:05] If this podcast means something to you,
[00:39:07] it would mean so much to me if you could do these couple things.
[00:39:10] One, go to the Heal With Grace Show page
[00:39:12] wherever you listen, and tap the plus sign
[00:39:14] or click on the follow button so you don't miss an episode.
[00:39:17] It helps both of us out.
[00:39:19] While you're there, if you could give a five-star review
[00:39:22] so that this podcast can reach more people,
[00:39:25] it would mean so much to me so I can continue sharing
[00:39:28] episodes that help you as well as others.
[00:39:30] Thanks for listening, and I hope this brings
[00:39:32] you hope on your journey.