The Power of Connection with Adam Dorsay

[00:00:00] Hey there and welcome to Heal With Grace. I'm your host Grace Secker
[00:00:04] and I'm a holistic licensed therapist and nervous system coach who believes that the chronic and often unseen symptoms
[00:00:10] you're living with are a sign of something deeper going on. A sign that your nervous system needs attention. In each episode
[00:00:17] I'll share the science behind the most common chronic health disorders plus holistic health tips using mental physical and spiritual practices.
[00:00:25] You'll hear what I've learned in my journey and the true stories from our trusted guests
[00:00:30] so you can feel less alone in your experience and give yourself grace no matter what you're going through.
[00:00:35] So without further ado, settle in and get cozy. It's time to Heal With Grace.
[00:00:41] Hello, hello and welcome back to the Heal With Grace podcast.
[00:00:44] I have a wonderful guest today, Dr. Adam Dorsey, who is a licensed psychologist and an executive coach in Silicon Valley
[00:00:53] where he serves high achieving adults including professional executives,
[00:00:57] entrepreneurs and professional athletes. He delivers lively and well-received keynotes and trainings at institutions like Microsoft,
[00:01:04] LinkedIn and the California Psychological Association.
[00:01:07] He's also the host of Super Psyched, an award-winning podcast and has delivered two highly regarded tech X talks.
[00:01:13] One about men and their emotions and the other about friendships and adulthood. In addition,
[00:01:18] he's a resiliency expert who co-created an international program for Facebook's online safety employees for several years.
[00:01:25] He now serves as the resiliency consultant to DigitalOcean.
[00:01:28] He's happily married the father of two boys and a dog named Rafi and I'm really excited to have him because
[00:01:36] this conversation was, oh my gosh, so amazing and because we talk about connection, right?
[00:01:42] Like when we are able to fully connect on a safe level with ourselves and with others, it changes our nervous system.
[00:01:50] It's called co-regulating for our nervous system, which actually brings us into the parasympathetic.
[00:01:55] And he wrote pretty much a whole book on how to connect, especially in adulthood.
[00:01:59] And for those of you listening right now who are in a really difficult state,
[00:02:03] it might feel really isolated due to your chronic pain or your illness and you might feel like
[00:02:07] I don't even know how to connect or no one will connect with me.
[00:02:10] I still want you to listen to this. It might be a little bit difficult at some times because
[00:02:16] again, it might feel hard to connect with the world, but this is something
[00:02:20] that is a non-negotiable on your healing journey and finding ways to connect with yourself and others
[00:02:25] is going to just propel your healing journey.
[00:02:28] So I will let him talk more about this, but I really hope that you enjoy and I'm excited.
[00:02:34] So here we go. Hi, Adam. Thank you so much for coming on today.
[00:02:37] I'm really excited to have you.
[00:02:39] Grace, I'm so happy to be with you and I'm already a fan of what you do.
[00:02:43] I think it's really important work.
[00:02:45] Thank you. I mean, I agree. And I love what we do and love what I do here.
[00:02:50] And really excited to talk about this topic today, connection, especially with this community
[00:02:54] because a lot of times when we go through chronic pain and illness,
[00:02:58] we feel very isolated.
[00:02:59] And so trying to find that connection can actually be really helpful.
[00:03:02] I kind of just went ahead and jumped right in.
[00:03:05] Tell us just a little bit about you. Give us a little overview of what you do.
[00:03:08] Absolutely. Well, I'm a psychologist in private practice.
[00:03:11] I'm just giving the professional stuff before I go to the personal.
[00:03:13] And I have a podcast, an award-winning podcast called Superpsych that I've interviewed.
[00:03:18] Actually next week, it'll be 250 people, but today I've interviewed all kinds of people.
[00:03:22] Everything from Holocaust survivors to relationship experts to pain experts
[00:03:27] like Howard Schubiner, who I know you're a fan of, all the way to today's,
[00:03:30] which is a contestant on the Golden Bachelor who's describing his experience of what it was like
[00:03:36] to be an ordinary person in a very extraordinary situation.
[00:03:40] It's all psych-based, obviously.
[00:03:42] And some people might say, well, what, how could you have an interview with an expert
[00:03:46] in coffee studies? And how's that cycle? Well, caffeine is a psychoactive chemical
[00:03:50] and it has changed society.
[00:03:52] So it's a diverse series of topics, super fun.
[00:03:56] It's called Superpsych, just like my book, which came out.
[00:03:59] And the book was partially the byproduct of some information I garnered from both
[00:04:03] my therapy practice after doing about 20,000 hours of it.
[00:04:06] And many, many episodes with great thinkers,
[00:04:09] the word connection just kept showing up.
[00:04:11] So I wrote this book on connection.
[00:04:13] I knew I would find the book or the book would find me.
[00:04:16] Actually, that's more accurate.
[00:04:17] Irv Yalam, one of the greatest contributors to modern psychotherapy
[00:04:23] out of Stanford, who just his breath of work,
[00:04:26] so that every book he ever wrote bit him in the ass.
[00:04:29] And I thought that was a really funny way of describing it.
[00:04:31] That's exactly what that book did to me.
[00:04:33] And so it held on to me for 20 months as I wrote it.
[00:04:36] And let's see what else we got.
[00:04:37] High-tech companies have hired me to create resiliency programs
[00:04:40] for their stressed out workers.
[00:04:42] And I give keynotes quite actively.
[00:04:44] So a lot of stuff.
[00:04:45] I'm a husband, a father of two beautiful boys.
[00:04:48] And they both acknowledge that they actually like...
[00:04:51] My wife is also a psychologist.
[00:04:52] And they like having psychologists as parents.
[00:04:55] So that's really cool.
[00:04:58] We really do our best to bring home the technology without web...
[00:05:02] Definitely without weaponizing it.
[00:05:03] We don't talk like psychologists to our children.
[00:05:05] We talk like people.
[00:05:07] But we try to use the best, most current research
[00:05:11] to inform our decisions about complex issues.
[00:05:14] So that's a nice place for my wife and me
[00:05:17] to kind of come together, create relationship,
[00:05:19] love, love, love, love her 22 years in
[00:05:22] and still feel like I'm in my first week of dating.
[00:05:24] Let's see what else I got.
[00:05:25] A dog, I got two cats and a very active traveler.
[00:05:28] I find that having lived abroad really taught me a lot
[00:05:31] about the world, lived in Japan for nearly three years,
[00:05:34] lived in Spain for a period of time, shorter.
[00:05:36] But each of those has informed me profoundly.
[00:05:39] So that's a bit of who I am professionally a little personally.
[00:05:44] Yeah. Thank you for that.
[00:05:45] I think it gives a good idea of kind of where you're coming from,
[00:05:48] what you're doing and what informs your work, right?
[00:05:51] I mean, especially I think as psychologists and counselors
[00:05:54] are a lot of our personal life informs our work
[00:05:56] and where our interests go, right?
[00:05:59] Especially travel.
[00:06:00] This is not a podcast on travel,
[00:06:01] but I just have to highlight that
[00:06:03] because I feel the same way.
[00:06:03] I think it just broadens your outlook on life
[00:06:06] and how you see connection and cultures, right?
[00:06:09] Like 100%.
[00:06:10] And one of the things I've also noticed is,
[00:06:12] you know, I have a history of back pain,
[00:06:13] a history of migraines myself.
[00:06:15] So I really resonate with some of the people you serve.
[00:06:18] And one of the interesting things
[00:06:20] that's been showing up in the research
[00:06:21] is that travel and taking vacation time,
[00:06:24] not just kind of lionizing the idea
[00:06:27] of not taking your vacation time.
[00:06:29] The taking of vacation time can increase the length of life
[00:06:32] according to some studies.
[00:06:33] And certainly play fun travel is not just hedonic.
[00:06:39] It actually can lengthen our lives
[00:06:41] and improve the quality of our lives.
[00:06:43] And in some cases, certain types of actions
[00:06:46] like that can reduce pain for some.
[00:06:49] So I thought that was very interesting.
[00:06:51] Oh, 100%.
[00:06:52] We talk about that a lot.
[00:06:53] Not only do we need to work on decreasing
[00:06:55] the danger signals for pain,
[00:06:57] but we also need to increase the positive ones, right?
[00:07:00] I mean, if you keep looking for what's going well
[00:07:03] and where you have fun and what lights you up,
[00:07:05] that's what your brain's going to look more for, right?
[00:07:07] So that's travel.
[00:07:08] That's, you know, having fun and laughing.
[00:07:10] And that's such a big part.
[00:07:12] It's something I have to remind people
[00:07:13] all the time, myself included, you know,
[00:07:15] because we get so focused on what we need to get rid of.
[00:07:18] We forget.
[00:07:18] I think it seems so important at the time
[00:07:20] that the whole idea of, you know,
[00:07:21] the crossroads between urgent and important.
[00:07:23] And we go with the urgent rather than the important.
[00:07:25] And the more we feed the urgent,
[00:07:27] the more we kind of go into that part
[00:07:29] of the nervous system, the sympathetic,
[00:07:31] the fight, fight, freeze.
[00:07:32] And it's always, always alarm, alarm, rather than like,
[00:07:35] let's take a breath and do something
[00:07:36] that's actually important, not just urgent.
[00:07:39] And I definitely, definitely am someone
[00:07:42] who will be in recovery on that front
[00:07:44] for the rest of my life.
[00:07:45] My eyes go to what's urgent.
[00:07:48] Another interesting finding, by the way,
[00:07:50] just an aside, I talk a lot about flow in my book,
[00:07:52] that idea of when we feel challenged
[00:07:54] and we're doing something that's totally immersive.
[00:07:56] Sometimes it's challenging and meaningful on it.
[00:07:58] But one of the things that they found is that people
[00:08:01] were asked to put their feet in an ice bucket
[00:08:04] and see how long they could go with it there.
[00:08:06] That's painful.
[00:08:07] And then they were asked to do it while playing Tetris.
[00:08:10] And they were able to keep their feet
[00:08:12] in the ice bucket far longer
[00:08:14] because they were in a flow state.
[00:08:16] A lot of what I talk about in this book
[00:08:17] is informed by a guy named Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.
[00:08:20] Or actually his pronouns, I think Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.
[00:08:23] He's the pioneering study of flow
[00:08:26] and how it impacts our life
[00:08:27] and turns out it's a really big deal.
[00:08:29] It allows Michael Jordan to power through a fever game
[00:08:32] and still win it,
[00:08:33] even though he's dragged off the court
[00:08:34] on the shoulders of his play, you know.
[00:08:38] They're not playmates, but fellow players.
[00:08:43] Yes.
[00:08:45] Yeah.
[00:08:45] Yeah.
[00:08:46] So much of how we can work with flow is regulation in a way.
[00:08:52] So I'm super curious about the name Super Psyched.
[00:08:55] Where did that come from?
[00:08:56] What does that mean?
[00:08:56] Thank you.
[00:08:57] My nickname in high school was enthusiasm.
[00:09:00] I was playing bass for a band.
[00:09:02] Just on an aside, I had no business playing for it.
[00:09:04] They were way better than I was,
[00:09:05] but they liked having me around
[00:09:07] because I was enthusiastic.
[00:09:08] And I actually discovered
[00:09:11] that I was kind of the band psychologist.
[00:09:13] Like there were really strong personalities
[00:09:15] amongst these exceptional musicians.
[00:09:17] Like really, the degree to it was,
[00:09:19] I was like a junior high school person
[00:09:21] playing with people in like college or graduate school.
[00:09:24] That would be the delta between us.
[00:09:25] And that's not a joke.
[00:09:26] But they liked having me around
[00:09:28] because I made it fun.
[00:09:29] And I also recognized that, you know,
[00:09:30] when we were playing in a line,
[00:09:32] we should actually be playing in a circle
[00:09:34] so we could all groove off each other
[00:09:35] and get Super Psyched.
[00:09:36] But enthusiasm lends himself to Super Psyched.
[00:09:39] Super Psyched is a word that's used ordinarily.
[00:09:42] But it's not meant to just mean
[00:09:43] excited and happy all the time.
[00:09:46] It also means super connected to our psyches.
[00:09:49] Because you and I both know
[00:09:50] that when we make informed decisions,
[00:09:53] using the best parts of our psyches,
[00:09:55] we tend to do better.
[00:09:56] So it's super connected to our psyches.
[00:09:58] Also, there's a little pun in there,
[00:10:00] Super Psyched.
[00:10:01] So it's like super psychology education.
[00:10:04] So there are the three things.
[00:10:05] I mean, we all want to be super psyched about stuff.
[00:10:08] But of course, toxic positivity tells us
[00:10:11] that trying to be happy all the time is so bad for us.
[00:10:15] If my God forbid,
[00:10:17] I mean, I've been through so many deaths of my pets.
[00:10:19] If somebody said, come on, put on a happy face
[00:10:21] and just think of the good times you had with them.
[00:10:23] No, I need to mourn right now
[00:10:24] and I needed to cry for a while
[00:10:26] and it might be many days
[00:10:27] and I'm sorry if that's a downer for you
[00:10:29] but I need to attend to that.
[00:10:31] So super connected to our psyches also means
[00:10:33] willingness to grieve,
[00:10:35] willingness to feel what we're actually feeling.
[00:10:38] I gave a TEDx talk on men and emotions
[00:10:40] and one of the things that I see in my office
[00:10:42] I primarily work with highly successful men,
[00:10:44] they're brilliant.
[00:10:45] And they aren't super connected to their psyches.
[00:10:48] They know how to execute the right decisions
[00:10:50] for the company
[00:10:51] and they know how to get their kids
[00:10:52] into the right schools and things like that.
[00:10:55] And from the outside,
[00:10:56] it looks like everything's working
[00:10:57] except for the fact that
[00:10:59] they are so distant from themselves.
[00:11:01] Something that you and I probably both have thought about
[00:11:03] is that James Joyce quote of
[00:11:05] Mr. Duffy lived a short distance from his body
[00:11:08] and a lot of my people are not super connected.
[00:11:10] They live a short distance from their psyches
[00:11:12] and when I ask these Ivy League
[00:11:15] and educated brilliant people,
[00:11:17] what do you want?
[00:11:19] There's this long pause
[00:11:21] and it's usually followed up with
[00:11:23] I have no idea.
[00:11:24] And one of the things we know is
[00:11:25] if we're not connected to our emotions,
[00:11:27] we've seen Demasio out of MIT
[00:11:29] has demonstrated that
[00:11:30] if you remove the emotion centers
[00:11:32] from our brains,
[00:11:33] we can't make decisions at all.
[00:11:35] So being super connected to our psyches
[00:11:37] is so important during this dash
[00:11:39] between our birth and death date.
[00:11:40] It makes the difference between
[00:11:42] the deathbed experience of,
[00:11:43] oh my gosh,
[00:11:44] I'm so full of regret versus,
[00:11:46] wow, I've lived a full life.
[00:11:49] It makes me think about
[00:11:51] when you're talking about
[00:11:52] people saying,
[00:11:52] I don't know what I want,
[00:11:53] but they outside may have all these things,
[00:11:55] right?
[00:11:56] They're super successful in so many ways.
[00:11:57] That's actually a large part
[00:11:59] of the personality characteristics
[00:12:00] of someone with chronic pain and illness.
[00:12:02] There's a lot of perfectionism.
[00:12:03] There's a lot of high performing.
[00:12:05] There's a lot of tight,
[00:12:06] kind of rigid control,
[00:12:08] anxiousness,
[00:12:08] conscientiousness,
[00:12:09] which we talk about
[00:12:11] may have gotten you really far in life
[00:12:13] in terms of career or family or goals.
[00:12:15] At the same time,
[00:12:16] you're disconnected.
[00:12:18] The crux of,
[00:12:19] honestly, I think any kind of psychological work
[00:12:21] is coming back home to yourself,
[00:12:23] right?
[00:12:23] Coming back connected to yourself,
[00:12:25] and that's a big one, too,
[00:12:27] in this community,
[00:12:28] which I think is just
[00:12:29] all communities, really.
[00:12:31] It's so interesting,
[00:12:32] the power of words,
[00:12:33] and I love that phrase,
[00:12:34] by the way,
[00:12:34] coming back home to yourself
[00:12:35] is just beautiful, perfect.
[00:12:37] But as you were describing,
[00:12:39] the plight of the one who suffers from pain,
[00:12:42] I could feel little tiny tinges
[00:12:45] in my L4, L5, where I have,
[00:12:47] my Achilles heel,
[00:12:48] where I feel my pain
[00:12:50] when I feel stress.
[00:12:51] And I could feel it,
[00:12:52] it wasn't going out of whack,
[00:12:54] but I could,
[00:12:54] just the mere suggestion
[00:12:56] shows the mind-body connection,
[00:12:58] just the fact that you were saying that
[00:13:00] during our talk,
[00:13:01] if you're not,
[00:13:02] you haven't caused me irreversible pain,
[00:13:03] I'm back.
[00:13:05] But I felt,
[00:13:05] I felt just a tiny,
[00:13:07] nervous thing.
[00:13:08] And how we speak to ourselves
[00:13:11] matters,
[00:13:11] and you know this really well.
[00:13:13] And if we aren't connected,
[00:13:15] we can somaticize.
[00:13:17] And one of the things that I talk about
[00:13:18] in my men and emotions pieces,
[00:13:20] we also have evidence
[00:13:22] that when we are disconnected
[00:13:23] from our emotions,
[00:13:24] and this gets men really,
[00:13:25] really listening up,
[00:13:27] I mean erectile dysfunction is a thing.
[00:13:29] It's not just a physiological phenomenon.
[00:13:31] I've worked with too many guys
[00:13:33] who are not connected to their psyches.
[00:13:35] And you know,
[00:13:36] they went through an entire battery
[00:13:37] of medical studies to find out
[00:13:39] like what's going on urologically,
[00:13:41] nothing, nothing was going on.
[00:13:43] And after doing therapy,
[00:13:45] they came back to life in that form.
[00:13:47] So that's for men,
[00:13:48] a very compelling reason.
[00:13:51] Yeah.
[00:13:51] Like dude,
[00:13:51] if you care about this,
[00:13:53] maybe go through the
[00:13:56] inconvenient avenues
[00:13:57] of trying to connect yourself to your psyche.
[00:13:59] It really matters.
[00:14:00] And connection is the big word.
[00:14:02] And the interesting thing
[00:14:03] about this whole book
[00:14:05] was the byproduct of,
[00:14:06] you know, as I was mentioning,
[00:14:08] being a therapist
[00:14:09] and being a podcaster
[00:14:11] and reading lots of books,
[00:14:12] what is this nebulous thing
[00:14:14] called connection
[00:14:14] that everybody's talking about?
[00:14:16] Sometimes they talk about it,
[00:14:17] you know, connection as it relates
[00:14:18] to your spouse,
[00:14:19] connection to your clients,
[00:14:20] connection to your children.
[00:14:21] But what about all the ways
[00:14:22] that we connect
[00:14:23] and what about looking at that
[00:14:25] as the currency
[00:14:27] we are really meant to be chasing?
[00:14:30] Connection.
[00:14:31] So what does that mean exactly then?
[00:14:33] How do you talk about it in your book?
[00:14:35] I think there are like four different ways.
[00:14:38] And you're right,
[00:14:38] I'm glad you're bringing this up
[00:14:39] because we can say the word connect,
[00:14:41] but there's so many times people are like,
[00:14:42] what do you mean connect to myself?
[00:14:44] You know, I love it.
[00:14:45] Yeah.
[00:14:45] And even the definition
[00:14:47] is lacking.
[00:14:47] If you look up in the Webster's dictionary,
[00:14:49] it's like when two train cars
[00:14:51] connect to each other.
[00:14:52] Yay.
[00:14:53] That's not really helpful.
[00:14:54] Or even the APA definition
[00:14:56] was super unhelpful.
[00:14:58] The American Psychological Association's
[00:15:00] dictionary connection,
[00:15:01] not great.
[00:15:01] I can't remember what it was,
[00:15:02] but it was also very superficial.
[00:15:04] So I actually engage
[00:15:06] 10 other licensed
[00:15:07] mental health professionals.
[00:15:09] One of whom was Harville Hendricks
[00:15:11] who I just love.
[00:15:12] If there's somebody,
[00:15:13] yeah, you're nodding, yeah.
[00:15:14] If there's somebody who knows about connection,
[00:15:15] it's that.
[00:15:17] I think he's got one of the most sophisticated
[00:15:19] ways of helping couples
[00:15:22] reunite when there's a disconnection.
[00:15:24] And I use it in my own personal life.
[00:15:26] It's massive.
[00:15:27] Whether it's with my children or my wife,
[00:15:28] it's one of the best ways of being heard.
[00:15:30] Anyway, and just another side,
[00:15:32] Harville actually,
[00:15:33] his episode on Oprah was the first
[00:15:35] Emmy for Oprah.
[00:15:36] So he's really, he's amazing.
[00:15:39] Anyway, he looked at the definition
[00:15:42] a bunch of other people did with me.
[00:15:44] And what we came to is a page-long
[00:15:47] definition of what connection is.
[00:15:48] And I won't read the whole thing,
[00:15:50] but it essentially it's life force.
[00:15:52] It's what brings us alive.
[00:15:54] And you know it when you've got it.
[00:15:56] You've heard that song the very first time.
[00:15:58] You're just like, oh, my body is coming here.
[00:16:00] Like, yes, that is a song.
[00:16:03] Or it could be the opposite.
[00:16:04] I mean, I'm going to go real 80s and old.
[00:16:05] Like, this is so dorky,
[00:16:07] but I'm going to share it anyway.
[00:16:09] I mean, total eclipse of the heart
[00:16:10] by, you know, Bonnie Tyler.
[00:16:12] Like, I remember hearing this when I was just,
[00:16:14] you know, a young romantic kid
[00:16:17] who felt so alone in junior high school.
[00:16:19] And I was like, oh, my God, this is the saddest song.
[00:16:21] And I understood those feelings.
[00:16:23] But whether it's hearing Hell's Bells by ACDC
[00:16:27] and just be like, oh, yeah, this is a song
[00:16:29] or Bonnie Tyler goes like for me,
[00:16:31] those were two songs from my youth
[00:16:33] that really brought me alive
[00:16:35] and made me say, oh, yes, this is what's up.
[00:16:38] Actually, maybe better still Van Halen one.
[00:16:40] Anything from that album blew my mind.
[00:16:42] But today, you know, Don't Stop Believing
[00:16:44] has made a revival because people come alive
[00:16:46] when they hear that song in a stadium.
[00:16:48] And that's a form of connection in some ways.
[00:16:51] And so first of all, we need to come up
[00:16:53] with a definition for what is connection.
[00:16:55] It's vitality, what makes us come alive.
[00:16:57] It's life force.
[00:16:59] Think of the great Jedi's and the force itself.
[00:17:02] And then how do we connect with ourselves
[00:17:05] is the primary way that we connect.
[00:17:08] And it's also the primary way that we disconnect
[00:17:10] when we're not connected to ourselves.
[00:17:12] So we could be in the greatest place on Earth
[00:17:15] but have just received a crap email.
[00:17:18] Like imagine you're in Tahiti
[00:17:19] and you've just looked at your phone and you see something.
[00:17:23] And it doesn't matter how beautiful you are.
[00:17:25] You're totally disconnected from who you are,
[00:17:27] let alone your surroundings.
[00:17:28] I mean, and that can be so, so, so sad.
[00:17:31] I mean, it's one thing if you're just in some ugly place,
[00:17:34] you know, it's like, okay, that alone is sad.
[00:17:37] But many of us have been in beautiful places
[00:17:39] and maybe have been disconnected from our partner
[00:17:41] while we're on vacation.
[00:17:43] That also informs how well we're able to take in the beauty.
[00:17:47] So let's see the four connections as rippling circles.
[00:17:51] Primary connection, how do we connect to ourselves?
[00:17:53] Outside that ring, another ring is how do we connect to others?
[00:17:57] Others could be anybody from my wife, my children,
[00:17:59] how I'm connecting to you, how I connect with my pets.
[00:18:02] Any other colleagues, of course.
[00:18:04] And the third is how do I connect to the world?
[00:18:06] The world includes such things as art, nature, work, things like that.
[00:18:11] Even our ancestry.
[00:18:12] Connecting to our ancestry is a big deal.
[00:18:13] My Angela talks about it.
[00:18:15] She said something akin to, you can't know where you're going
[00:18:18] if you don't know where you're from.
[00:18:19] And I am a big fan of knowing our ancestry
[00:18:23] and just being informed by that, dancing with our ancestors, so to speak.
[00:18:26] Last but not least is the fourth realm
[00:18:28] and that is connecting with something greater.
[00:18:30] Some people call it spirit, some people call it religion,
[00:18:32] but even the most devout atheist goes to the Grand Canyon and says, wow.
[00:18:38] Even the most devout atheist goes to a solar eclipse in Oregon in 2017
[00:18:43] and says, wow.
[00:18:45] Wow is usually an indicator that you're having
[00:18:48] an experience that is greater than yourself
[00:18:50] in the term that we use.
[00:18:51] Believe it or not, scientifically, you know it is awe.
[00:18:54] And awe is so predictive of good mental health, good physiological health.
[00:18:59] There's so many.
[00:19:00] It's almost like gratitude on steroids.
[00:19:02] People were hugging each other who didn't know each other at that Oregon solar eclipse.
[00:19:08] We forget who we are.
[00:19:10] And if you look at our brains when we are experiencing awe,
[00:19:13] it's very similar presentation, neurochemically and neurophysiologically
[00:19:17] to when we have psilocybin in our brains.
[00:19:20] And we can do that from something seemingly not all that amazing.
[00:19:24] Like Michael Amster, a colleague friend of mine who wrote a book on awe,
[00:19:27] describes, you know, you can microdose awe when you're making pancakes.
[00:19:29] You can look at the liquid, go into the pan.
[00:19:32] It gets hot.
[00:19:33] It starts bubbling up and right before your very eyes, it turns into a solid.
[00:19:38] And that is also, if you're willing to see it, is awesome.
[00:19:43] Some people might roll their eyes and say, dude, it's making pancakes.
[00:19:46] Well, maybe see it through the eyes of a child.
[00:19:51] Maybe do that Zen idea of beginner's mindset.
[00:19:55] Maybe see it anew.
[00:19:56] And if we're able to do that with our partners,
[00:19:58] that's one of the ways that I keep my relationships so new with my wife
[00:20:03] is I see her through new eyes.
[00:20:05] I try to see her through new eyes and recognize the amazingness that we're together.
[00:20:10] And we also know that what we appreciate appreciates.
[00:20:14] Sadly, on the other side of things, we also know that hurt people hurt people.
[00:20:18] So very pithy ways to remind yourself, hey, maybe I'm going to try to zero in
[00:20:24] on what I appreciate and maybe I'll do it not just for my benefit,
[00:20:28] but for the benefit of others.
[00:20:29] Those are so helpful to understand those four ways because I think when people feel overwhelmed
[00:20:36] when they're like, first of all, I'm having trouble in relationships
[00:20:39] or you're telling me to connect because I'm depressed or I'm in pain
[00:20:43] or I'm in bed because I have chronic fatigue.
[00:20:45] What am I supposed to do?
[00:20:46] It feels very overwhelming.
[00:20:48] But those are really helpful, I think, to break it down
[00:20:50] because it doesn't mean you have to have some huge thriving community,
[00:20:53] like connecting with yourself, connecting with what's in front of you.
[00:20:57] With a pet can be approachable.
[00:21:01] It's accessible.
[00:21:02] And so I like how you broke it down and really helped us understand,
[00:21:04] yeah, it literally changes your brain.
[00:21:08] It creates that connection, that aliveness.
[00:21:14] That's what we're looking for, either that exhale or the like, oh my gosh,
[00:21:20] that's exciting or whoa, look at that.
[00:21:23] Or how does that feel when you connect with someone that sees you or hears you?
[00:21:27] And those are important modifiers because we also know that when we're with people
[00:21:31] who don't see us or don't hear us, it really hurts.
[00:21:34] And when we feel rejected, it hits our pain centers just as if
[00:21:37] we're experiencing physical pain.
[00:21:39] I'm not a pain expert by any stretch, I've experienced it myself.
[00:21:43] But one thing I've also noticed is that I'm glad you brought up pets.
[00:21:47] Pets are such a big deal.
[00:21:49] And I'm so glad that there is so much corroborating research.
[00:21:53] When I was first a pet geek in terms of how it impacts our health,
[00:21:58] I was looked at kind of like some kind of new agey wizard who was talking woo-woo talk.
[00:22:04] Like, okay, that's nice, but they're just dogs and cats.
[00:22:06] And I was like, no, they're really not.
[00:22:08] They're way more than that.
[00:22:09] And lo and behold, the studies have been coming out by the bushel.
[00:22:13] And it's even made pet-assisted therapy a thing, equine-assisted therapy.
[00:22:20] I have a dog.
[00:22:21] His name is perfect for what he does.
[00:22:23] He's a certified therapy dog through the American Kennel Club and others.
[00:22:28] And he works in our office.
[00:22:29] He's hypoallergenic.
[00:22:31] He's super, super docile.
[00:22:33] And we know now we have actual studies that show that our endogenous,
[00:22:39] that is our internal, our pre-existing feel-good hormones,
[00:22:42] our serotonin, our oxytocin, our dopamine and others are raised.
[00:22:48] And our cortisol is reduced.
[00:22:49] Our cortisol, the stress hormone, is reduced when we're touching an animal we like.
[00:22:54] Over my shoulder is my OG cat who jumped me into the cat gang.
[00:22:59] I hated cats for the longest time.
[00:23:01] I couldn't imagine ever liking a cat.
[00:23:03] Well, one day, something, a longer story compelled me to adopt a cat.
[00:23:08] And this guy jumped in my lap, kissed my nose,
[00:23:11] and he slept in my arms every night of his life moving forward.
[00:23:14] And I learned, wow, you don't just have to be only into dogs.
[00:23:18] You can be a switch-hitter.
[00:23:20] And cats have taught me so much as an extrovert because they're introverted.
[00:23:25] They show me how to self-soothe.
[00:23:27] And I would say that my cat has taught me a lot about emotional and physical pain,
[00:23:33] how to tend to each of those.
[00:23:35] And I'm beyond grateful to them.
[00:23:36] I carry them around in my psyches everywhere I go.
[00:23:39] And I prefer an extroverted cat, a cat who's, I don't want a skittish cat.
[00:23:43] I want one who wants to hang.
[00:23:45] So I'm very careful in my cat selection.
[00:23:47] But I've also run pet loss groups.
[00:23:49] I volunteered for three years, four years.
[00:23:51] I don't remember how many years.
[00:23:52] At the Humane Society, running pet loss groups, talking about that effect.
[00:23:57] And to lose a pet is just one of the most gut-wrenching experiences.
[00:24:02] I mean, the tears that fall.
[00:24:05] And I remember somebody very just, you know, glibly saying,
[00:24:09] Oh, just get another pet.
[00:24:11] And I hate to admit it, but they are kind of right.
[00:24:15] It's not another pet and it's not a replacement.
[00:24:17] I realize that this is not necessarily the topic of this conversation,
[00:24:19] but I want to talk about it anyway.
[00:24:20] It's so important.
[00:24:22] I learned that getting another pet is not a substitute.
[00:24:26] It is a continuation.
[00:24:27] And it's a continuation with a brand new relationship.
[00:24:32] Because in my experience, no two cats, no two dogs have been at all alike.
[00:24:38] And they have not been replacements.
[00:24:40] But I do believe we need a steady stream of them in our lives.
[00:24:44] Yeah, sure.
[00:24:44] Take it time to mourn if you need to.
[00:24:47] But I would recommend getting the animal into your life sooner
[00:24:51] than you might be ready.
[00:24:53] And I can say this because after Yoda died,
[00:24:55] I went over to volunteer at the Humane Society.
[00:24:59] And there was this orange cat who just was screaming at me.
[00:25:03] And I put in my lap and he was my cat.
[00:25:05] And I wasn't ready, but he came home.
[00:25:07] He didn't replace Yoda, but he brought down my sadness by 50%.
[00:25:13] I still miss Yoda to this day.
[00:25:15] I will always have a hole in my heart for him.
[00:25:17] But I can tell you that that orange Max, that next cat,
[00:25:21] oh my gosh, he was he was hilarious.
[00:25:23] He was great.
[00:25:24] I still love thinking about him.
[00:25:25] You are talking to someone who is agreeing with everything
[00:25:28] that you're saying and knows it on a deep level.
[00:25:31] I just have to say this because you're right.
[00:25:33] It's not the topic, but I love when people say
[00:25:36] I wasn't a cat person until someone a cat found me.
[00:25:39] I will say that to everyone.
[00:25:40] Everyone tells me they're not a cat person.
[00:25:42] I'm like, you just haven't found the right cat.
[00:25:44] Or you know, you just don't you just don't know,
[00:25:46] you know, you haven't experienced it.
[00:25:49] And specifically orange cats have a special place in my heart.
[00:25:52] I grew up with one.
[00:25:53] I got one as my first pet was an orange cat at five years old.
[00:25:58] Best thing ever.
[00:25:59] Best like 20 pound orange cat.
[00:26:02] Big orange cat.
[00:26:04] Oranges are the best.
[00:26:05] And then I had one again.
[00:26:07] They have the crazy personalities.
[00:26:09] They're more outgoing.
[00:26:10] They're more cuddly.
[00:26:11] They just they all do.
[00:26:12] If you talk to people with orange cats, it's kind of a thing.
[00:26:16] So funny.
[00:26:17] And so so true.
[00:26:18] I mean, I mean, my main coon Yoda was a main coon
[00:26:21] and he was massive and just a giant ball of just fur and love.
[00:26:24] And everyone loved him.
[00:26:25] Even people who hated cats were just like,
[00:26:27] what's up with your cat?
[00:26:28] He's awesome.
[00:26:28] And Max, my God, you could you could have 50 people and dogs,
[00:26:32] multiple dogs.
[00:26:33] And Max would have been just like chilling with everybody.
[00:26:36] No, I mean, no problem.
[00:26:37] Yeah.
[00:26:38] And you are right.
[00:26:38] It doesn't like getting a new pet,
[00:26:40] which I think of as a new connection, right?
[00:26:43] Like you said, it's a new relationship.
[00:26:45] And we can say that about people relationships too.
[00:26:47] It doesn't necessarily always replace people
[00:26:50] because that person that pet is always going to be
[00:26:54] that was in your they were in your life.
[00:26:55] We can't erase that.
[00:26:57] That connection is real and true and there.
[00:27:00] But it does help.
[00:27:01] I mean, I actually just experienced it this past year.
[00:27:03] I had a dog with my ex-husband and he ended up keeping her
[00:27:07] because technically she was his before we met.
[00:27:09] But you know, over six years, she becomes my baby too.
[00:27:13] And that was so much harder than I ever imagined.
[00:27:17] Man, I missed her so much and still do, you know.
[00:27:21] But I ended up getting a dog with my own last year,
[00:27:24] last July.
[00:27:26] And oh my goodness.
[00:27:27] I mean, the connection between him and me
[00:27:31] because it's just us.
[00:27:32] I've never had a pet that was only mine.
[00:27:34] I've had one with partners or family.
[00:27:36] And those connections are amazing.
[00:27:38] But man, the bond between us is a whole other level.
[00:27:42] And I still miss her.
[00:27:44] The past dog, her name was Addie.
[00:27:46] But yeah, it's been really, really amazing connection
[00:27:49] with Ollie.
[00:27:50] And I can't imagine what it would be without him.
[00:27:53] And he's an Aussie.
[00:27:54] I think he said you're an Aussie.
[00:27:55] Is it Labrador or an Aussie?
[00:27:55] No, a pure Aussie.
[00:27:57] Oh, pure Aussie.
[00:27:58] Those guys are so smart.
[00:28:00] So smart.
[00:28:00] They're so smart.
[00:28:01] Yeah.
[00:28:02] Oh, he'd be amazing in the snow.
[00:28:03] I love watching your eyes and your face light up
[00:28:08] as you were talking about him.
[00:28:10] And there's something incredible about having your own
[00:28:15] when single.
[00:28:16] Like I remember Max was absolutely my own guy.
[00:28:19] Actually, his name was Flash.
[00:28:21] But when I asked my wife, I came into our relationship
[00:28:25] with Max, his name was Flash at the time.
[00:28:27] And when I asked her, I said, hey, babe, it's not a
[00:28:29] deal breaker.
[00:28:30] But would you be open to taking my last name?
[00:28:32] And she said, sure.
[00:28:34] Would you change the name of the cat though?
[00:28:35] And I said, what did you have in mind?
[00:28:37] She said Max.
[00:28:38] I said, hello, Max.
[00:28:39] And so that was how that happened.
[00:28:41] And it was one of the funniest things because it
[00:28:44] was just so organic.
[00:28:45] And Max transitioned from being just my cat to our cat
[00:28:51] and it was seamless, like just fantastic.
[00:28:55] And up until the day he died, you know, both of my
[00:28:57] children got to know him and his orange-ness will
[00:29:00] always have a paw in their heart for sure.
[00:29:02] Yeah.
[00:29:03] I think it's important that you noted the studies,
[00:29:05] right, that show it actually enhances our
[00:29:08] serotonin levels.
[00:29:09] There's a reason why there's therapy animals.
[00:29:11] Now, you know, and it makes so much sense.
[00:29:13] I mean, that comfort that you can have, they
[00:29:15] operate at different frequencies than we do.
[00:29:17] They're not in a logical state that we are, right?
[00:29:21] So they have a different energy to them, which is
[00:29:24] kind of how I think of, in a way, in terms of
[00:29:27] when we talked about connecting to people that are
[00:29:30] safer, that are more comfortable to be around,
[00:29:33] that you can feel relaxed with, those are
[00:29:37] the connections that we want to seek out,
[00:29:40] rather than some that don't make us feel
[00:29:43] very good or maybe impede on some boundaries
[00:29:45] or rigorous in certain ways that are not healthy, you know?
[00:29:48] I mean, I think that's really important to talk
[00:29:50] about in terms of how to connect and what maybe
[00:29:52] some of the connections are not as healthy for us.
[00:29:55] I'm so glad you brought it up.
[00:29:57] So true.
[00:29:58] I took great interest in friendship and adulthood.
[00:30:00] Esther Perrell, who's a total rock star
[00:30:03] who probably doesn't even need to be introduced on it,
[00:30:05] but she's a couple of therapists and she's written
[00:30:07] books and 10 talks and oh my gosh, she's just great.
[00:30:10] But she basically says that friends are so
[00:30:13] important because we used to live in villages
[00:30:15] where we had tons of people in our lines
[00:30:18] serving different roles.
[00:30:19] We'd have somebody to hunt with, somebody to garden
[00:30:22] with, somebody to build things with, somebody
[00:30:24] to play cards with, somebody to whatever with.
[00:30:26] And now we expect our spouses to fill the roles
[00:30:30] of the entire village and I felt compelled to do
[00:30:34] my second TEDx talk, which was on friendship
[00:30:36] and adulthood because so many of the people
[00:30:38] who were seeing me were super friendable,
[00:30:40] but they were describing having been born,
[00:30:42] let's say in Ohio, moved off to the East Coast
[00:30:45] for graduate school, had an internship in Texas
[00:30:47] and then came to the Bay Area and in each place
[00:30:50] they had friends and each place they lost friends
[00:30:52] with the intention of holding on to those friends
[00:30:54] and now they have no friends because they're
[00:30:55] too busy to have friends or maybe their
[00:30:57] friends are relegated to the parents
[00:31:01] of their children's friends and people
[00:31:04] with whom they wouldn't ordinarily be friends.
[00:31:06] I'm sure you've seen stand by me where at the very end
[00:31:08] the final line and my apologies if you haven't seen
[00:31:11] the movie, but most people have.
[00:31:12] He says, I never had friends like I did when I was 12
[00:31:15] or however old he was and I would say
[00:31:18] that's a call to action.
[00:31:19] We need to have those friends.
[00:31:20] We need to have those friends who get us.
[00:31:22] Sadly, I've talked about this a fair amount
[00:31:24] and he's even in the book.
[00:31:25] I have some great friends locally and they're phenomenal
[00:31:28] and one of the people I feel safest with
[00:31:31] in terms of that dynamic you were describing,
[00:31:33] whereby every interaction with this guy,
[00:31:36] I always feel like three inches taller.
[00:31:38] He lives all the way in South Orange, New Jersey.
[00:31:39] It sucks. His name is Jed.
[00:31:41] He's amazing and I saw him for the first time
[00:31:44] in nine years over the summer, nine years
[00:31:46] and I recognize that at this rate,
[00:31:48] I'll see him five more times before I die if I'm lucky,
[00:31:51] if we continue at this clip.
[00:31:52] So it has been a call to action.
[00:31:54] He's not coming home for me all that much.
[00:31:56] I don't go to South Orange, New Jersey all that much,
[00:31:59] but what we can do is what you and I are doing right now
[00:32:02] and that is making intentional time.
[00:32:03] People will roll their eyes and say,
[00:32:04] oh my God, I'm in Zoom all week.
[00:32:06] Well, being in Zoom with somebody who you love,
[00:32:09] maybe drinking a cup of coffee, a beer, whatever.
[00:32:12] I've got an energy drink that I create
[00:32:14] that has all kinds of really cool minerals in it
[00:32:17] that I drink in the morning.
[00:32:18] But doing that is so different
[00:32:20] from your business as usual Zoom meeting.
[00:32:23] There's a hierarchy of connection,
[00:32:26] liking someone's post on social media,
[00:32:28] which is akin to Lori Santos out of Yale.
[00:32:31] The Happiness Lab says it's more like Nutrisuite.
[00:32:33] It's free of nutrition.
[00:32:35] It feels like you're doing something,
[00:32:36] but it's not really.
[00:32:38] And then as you go up, there's texts and Slack
[00:32:42] and things like that,
[00:32:43] but you can't really feel the nonverbal
[00:32:45] and there's voice texts, which are nicer.
[00:32:47] They're emails and those can be even better still
[00:32:50] if they're nicely written,
[00:32:51] but it goes all the way up to the old school phone call
[00:32:55] and people think that they have a reason to call
[00:32:58] but just remember Stevie Wonder saying,
[00:33:00] I just call to say I love you
[00:33:01] and that is reason enough.
[00:33:03] That is reason enough
[00:33:05] and I'll tell you why scientifically.
[00:33:07] Well, there are many reasons,
[00:33:08] but one of them is that one of the regrets
[00:33:10] that we have at the end of our lives
[00:33:12] is love left on the table.
[00:33:14] I didn't call that person enough
[00:33:16] and Bruno Mars sings about,
[00:33:18] I should have brought you flowers.
[00:33:19] When my son left for college,
[00:33:21] my thought was I should have bought you more tacos.
[00:33:23] I wish I had more time to eat tacos with you.
[00:33:26] All of a sudden, what the hell?
[00:33:27] He's 18 and he's moving out?
[00:33:31] And I did it right and it hurts this much
[00:33:34] and I wish I'd bought him more tacos.
[00:33:36] I mean, it was a joke kind of,
[00:33:37] but I wish I'd had more time
[00:33:40] to just chill with the guy
[00:33:41] while he was living under my roof
[00:33:43] and just say, hey, man, let's go grab some tacos.
[00:33:46] So we don't have to have a reason.
[00:33:48] And when it comes to our friends,
[00:33:50] just even just leaving a voice text saying,
[00:33:52] hey, I was just thinking of you.
[00:33:53] I just remembered that funny thing
[00:33:55] that happened all those years ago
[00:33:57] and just bringing a small summit's pilot face.
[00:33:59] But setting up that time,
[00:34:00] like Jen and I took a walk-in talk yesterday.
[00:34:03] We had an hour
[00:34:05] and we were both getting our steps in.
[00:34:06] He was doing it in the snow.
[00:34:07] I was doing it in sunny California.
[00:34:09] And it was a blast.
[00:34:11] We totally caught up.
[00:34:12] It was unbelievable.
[00:34:13] And one of the things I got, by the way,
[00:34:14] from the Golden Bachelor dude
[00:34:16] was that when you're in the Bachelor
[00:34:18] and in the mansion,
[00:34:19] you don't have any access to technology.
[00:34:23] You just have to talk to the people there.
[00:34:25] And he said virtually every single contestant
[00:34:28] who was vying for Joan's love
[00:34:31] in the Golden Bachelorette
[00:34:32] had a profound connection with the other guys as a result.
[00:34:36] And friendships really, really developed.
[00:34:39] Like, really.
[00:34:40] He also recognized what we've been talking about,
[00:34:43] what Vivek Murthy has been talking about,
[00:34:44] the loneliness epidemic
[00:34:45] is really, really taken care of with social connection.
[00:34:49] And we also know that when we're connected with people
[00:34:51] who are awesome,
[00:34:52] we do tend to feel less pain.
[00:34:54] So it's definitely a call to action.
[00:34:56] Like, let's have more friends.
[00:34:58] Well, how do you do that?
[00:34:59] Well, one of the easiest ways
[00:35:01] is to look through your contacts
[00:35:02] and ask who have I had a historical contact with?
[00:35:05] Just let drop off.
[00:35:06] Yeah, it's an awkward call.
[00:35:08] Like, hey, Doug, yeah, it's been 15 years.
[00:35:12] I completely dropped the ball.
[00:35:13] Nonetheless, I'd rather be embarrassed
[00:35:16] and try to reinvigorate this relationship than not.
[00:35:19] As one of my clients informed me,
[00:35:21] and in another way,
[00:35:22] the pain of loneliness hurts much more
[00:35:24] than the pain of rejection.
[00:35:25] So with that in mind,
[00:35:27] let's be led by our brains
[00:35:29] and realize this is the right thing to do.
[00:35:32] Reach out.
[00:35:33] Will they say yes?
[00:35:34] Not necessarily.
[00:35:35] But you have a far better chance
[00:35:36] that they will than if you don't.
[00:35:37] So that's the first tier.
[00:35:39] You know, they can also do things locally
[00:35:42] as you're probably experiencing.
[00:35:43] If people stop you as you're walking your dog,
[00:35:46] there might be a friendable possibility.
[00:35:48] There are studies that show shocker or shockers
[00:35:50] that people are more likely to be engaged
[00:35:52] when they're walking a dog down the street
[00:35:53] than when they're not.
[00:35:54] I mean, who's going to stop somebody
[00:35:55] who's just taking a walk?
[00:35:56] It could seem a little weird,
[00:35:58] but what a cute dog?
[00:35:59] Oh, you know, that happens all the time.
[00:36:01] And when Mozi, my beautiful colleague died.
[00:36:04] Oh my God.
[00:36:05] I mean, our hearts were just...
[00:36:06] He was our first, you know, combined pet.
[00:36:10] Part of my morning process
[00:36:11] was to identify all the people Mozi introduced me to.
[00:36:14] He introduced me to 40 or 50 great people
[00:36:17] in my neighborhood.
[00:36:18] He got me established in my neighborhood.
[00:36:20] That song from Sesame Street,
[00:36:22] do you know all the people in your neighborhood?
[00:36:23] Well, that was thanks to Mozi, the dog.
[00:36:26] And in fact, my first TED Talk came about
[00:36:28] because of somebody I met through Mozi.
[00:36:30] But several good friends,
[00:36:31] including pet sitters and babysitters and other people,
[00:36:35] they came to us because I was walking a rock star dog.
[00:36:39] And you don't even have to have a rock star dog.
[00:36:40] You can have anything but a rock star dog,
[00:36:44] but a dog will often get people to engage you.
[00:36:47] And that's another way.
[00:36:48] And of course, doing meetups and going to activities
[00:36:51] that you'd want to do anyway, hikes are good,
[00:36:53] where there are going to be people
[00:36:54] who want to meet other people.
[00:36:55] Worst case scenario, you get a great hike.
[00:36:57] And best case scenario, you get the digits
[00:36:59] of your future best friend locally.
[00:37:01] So in serving on boards,
[00:37:03] it's one of the ways that adults play.
[00:37:05] Being a volunteer, doing a cause that matters to you.
[00:37:07] It's another way that you might find people
[00:37:09] who have similar values.
[00:37:10] And so I would say, take time to invest in friendships.
[00:37:15] Thank you for that call out
[00:37:16] in terms of understanding how that might come about,
[00:37:20] like the hierarchy of connection.
[00:37:22] That's so helpful, especially the phone call call out
[00:37:25] because I think these days,
[00:37:28] I mean, yeah, many people do not like to be on the phone
[00:37:32] or they'll even be like, why is someone calling me?
[00:37:33] You know, it's almost like a threat.
[00:37:34] It's almost like, what's happened?
[00:37:36] What's wrong?
[00:37:36] Totally.
[00:37:37] It almost feels like an imposition or something,
[00:37:39] but let's reconsider that.
[00:37:41] Like maybe it's the greatest thing
[00:37:43] that's going to happen today,
[00:37:44] hearing from this fantastic person
[00:37:46] who's not a robo caller, who's not a robo at all,
[00:37:49] somebody who loves you romantically
[00:37:52] or just as a dear, dear friend.
[00:37:54] And by the way, one of my all time favorite movies
[00:37:56] for guys out there.
[00:37:57] And for women, for what it's worth,
[00:37:59] is I Love You Man starring Jason Siegel and Paul Rudd
[00:38:03] that shows the problem with male friendships
[00:38:07] and the possible solutions
[00:38:09] through two of the great actors of our time.
[00:38:11] You know, just so good.
[00:38:14] I love a good bromance.
[00:38:16] Yeah, it's so...
[00:38:17] I mean, when you can have that connection,
[00:38:19] you know it.
[00:38:20] Like you said, you know when it feels good.
[00:38:22] You know when it feels right.
[00:38:23] I had the same thing.
[00:38:24] I was just talking to a couple of friends
[00:38:26] I went to dinner with last week.
[00:38:27] And all of us were saying,
[00:38:29] it's dark, it's cold.
[00:38:30] We didn't really want to get in our cars
[00:38:32] to come down here.
[00:38:33] But oh, how glad we are that we did.
[00:38:36] You know how happy we are.
[00:38:37] It feels so good to have that.
[00:38:40] And then I also want to say though,
[00:38:42] that another side of that,
[00:38:44] which I often talk, I feel like with my clients about,
[00:38:46] is when you leave a connection,
[00:38:48] when you leave a dinner that doesn't feel good.
[00:38:50] So to recognize that, what is that about?
[00:38:53] What happened there, right?
[00:38:55] Is there some rejection?
[00:38:56] Is there a bunch of drama and gossip going on
[00:38:58] that just doesn't feel good?
[00:38:59] Right?
[00:39:00] There's a difference you can tell when it's draining
[00:39:02] or when it feels connected.
[00:39:04] I think that's a really important thing.
[00:39:05] It feeds or bleeds.
[00:39:06] It either feeds you or bleeds you.
[00:39:08] Yes.
[00:39:08] It's not been researched, but an old axiom
[00:39:11] that I believe comes from Jim Rohn
[00:39:13] is we become the average of the five people
[00:39:16] we spend the most time with.
[00:39:17] And I totally buy that.
[00:39:19] And you were talking about gossip
[00:39:21] and things that you don't maybe that don't feed you.
[00:39:23] Not only do they not feed you,
[00:39:24] but we're such social creatures
[00:39:25] we can kind of become like that.
[00:39:27] And the question is, are these the people I want to be like?
[00:39:29] And I have this test.
[00:39:31] It's called the drive away test.
[00:39:33] You get in your car after such an engagement.
[00:39:36] You ask yourself, how do I feel in my body?
[00:39:38] Do I feel taller?
[00:39:39] Do I feel happier?
[00:39:40] Do I feel fulfilled?
[00:39:42] Do I feel smaller?
[00:39:43] Do I feel exhausted, deflated?
[00:39:45] Was everything they were saying,
[00:39:46] was it a back to self comment?
[00:39:48] Like as I was talking about Japan,
[00:39:50] where they off go off on a 20 minute thing
[00:39:52] about Japan and not ask me about my experience.
[00:39:55] One of the great contributions
[00:39:57] comes from a guy named Donald Winnicott,
[00:39:58] a British psychoanalyst who according to one of my colleagues,
[00:40:02] Dr. Hugh Grubb, mental health can be exhibited
[00:40:05] by one's ability to share themselves
[00:40:08] and the ability to take in another's experience.
[00:40:11] And I think that upload and download
[00:40:13] that you're describing the absence of in that scenario,
[00:40:16] that kind of nightmare scenario of just a crap dinner party
[00:40:20] where you just get in the car and you're like,
[00:40:21] Oh God, that sucked.
[00:40:23] The driveway test really speaks to that.
[00:40:25] Now, not every interaction is going to be awesome.
[00:40:28] And sometimes they can be, you know, discussed like,
[00:40:31] Hey, you know, I noticed that when we spoke last time,
[00:40:34] I didn't really get as much airtime in or as Nina Badson,
[00:40:38] who was on my podcast, a friendship expert said,
[00:40:41] Just do the thing more.
[00:40:43] If they aren't listening, just petition and ping it more.
[00:40:47] If they don't go there, you would divest, so to speak.
[00:40:50] And I know that sounds crass,
[00:40:52] but the fact is we have to look at this as an investment of time.
[00:40:55] Time is our one non-renewable resource.
[00:40:58] We can lose our health and get it back.
[00:40:59] We can lose our money and get it back.
[00:41:00] But we can't lose our time and get it back.
[00:41:02] Who we decide to invest our time with really matters.
[00:41:06] And one of the things that caused me to ask my wife to go steady
[00:41:11] back when we were just dating.
[00:41:12] Like I was like, Oh, oh, it's on was when I met her friends.
[00:41:16] When I met her friends, I was informed of her values,
[00:41:19] how accurately she described her friends.
[00:41:21] That experience like, Oh my gosh, she's the best.
[00:41:24] And you meet her and like, Oh my gosh, she's kind of the worst.
[00:41:28] The people she was describing as the best were the best.
[00:41:31] And I also knew that they would be the people she would be going to
[00:41:35] for advice on our relationship at times.
[00:41:38] And are they the advisory board?
[00:41:40] I would want advising my wife on me.
[00:41:43] And the answer is yes, they are awesome.
[00:41:46] So it matters who we spend time with.
[00:41:48] I mean, we really need to be conscientious about this.
[00:41:51] And I know it can be hurtful to divest.
[00:41:55] But asking yourself, you know, is this person helping me become
[00:42:00] who I want to become?
[00:42:02] Is there a mutuality here?
[00:42:03] Are we a good fit?
[00:42:05] Are we good bandmates?
[00:42:06] Do we make good music together?
[00:42:08] That type of metaphor comes to the fore.
[00:42:11] Yeah, I think I mentioned this before.
[00:42:13] But when I, I've been in Colorado for about a year now.
[00:42:17] And when I first moved, I was doing all the things I was going out
[00:42:19] to different groups and saying yes to everything.
[00:42:22] So I was like, let's just meet people.
[00:42:23] I'm so excited to be here, you know, and do all the hikes,
[00:42:26] do all the activities.
[00:42:27] And Colorado is a very activity focused place.
[00:42:29] So there's a lot going on, you know, and it wasn't that hard
[00:42:32] to meet some people.
[00:42:34] But then I started to find I was drained.
[00:42:36] It was exhausting.
[00:42:38] On one hand, I am a little more of an introvert.
[00:42:40] And I think I was pushing myself.
[00:42:41] But then I was starting to evaluate, okay, these people,
[00:42:45] not horrible people, just I feel a lot more drained
[00:42:48] and exhausted when I leave those situations.
[00:42:50] And I even kind of knew it in the beginning,
[00:42:52] but I still wanted to give it some time and see where it went.
[00:42:55] And about six months in, I really started to get clear on,
[00:42:59] okay, these are the people I want to invest my time in.
[00:43:01] And these are the kind of groups I don't.
[00:43:03] And it's been a really cool experience to go through that
[00:43:06] and really hone in to where even on my birthday in November,
[00:43:09] I went to dinner with a few friends.
[00:43:11] And one of the reflections back to me was,
[00:43:13] Grace, it's been really cool to get to know you
[00:43:16] because now we're seeing how intentional you are
[00:43:19] with your relationships and who you bring into your circle
[00:43:22] and who you engage with.
[00:43:24] And I hadn't really received that feedback before.
[00:43:26] Maybe it was or wasn't true before,
[00:43:28] but it felt good to receive that.
[00:43:31] I have been intentional about it.
[00:43:32] And when I'm intentional, these relationships are flourishing
[00:43:35] and becoming so nourishing.
[00:43:38] So.
[00:43:38] Well, Grace, I'm loving this flow
[00:43:39] and I'm just realizing, holy crap,
[00:43:41] I have another meeting I need to be on shortly.
[00:43:44] So is it okay?
[00:43:46] I was about to wrap up anyway.
[00:43:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:43:48] For sure.
[00:43:49] Yeah, Adam, thank you so much for coming on.
[00:43:52] Is there anything else you just want to wrap up with
[00:43:54] in terms of what we've talked about?
[00:43:56] Yeah, I think everybody has their own unique connection formula.
[00:43:59] All eight billion of us have different ones.
[00:44:01] It's our job to go on a scavenger hunt
[00:44:03] and figure out how we connect with ourselves,
[00:44:05] others, the world, and something greater.
[00:44:08] And each of us gets to go on that mission.
[00:44:11] Each of us is tasked with this version of a hero's journey.
[00:44:16] My book, I believe, is a good guide to getting there.
[00:44:19] And I'm so grateful that I had the time to write it.
[00:44:22] So grateful to my wife who sat with me
[00:44:24] as I went through the final version of it,
[00:44:26] making sure it was nicely tuned.
[00:44:28] And I hope people will read it
[00:44:29] and let me know what they think.
[00:44:30] And if there are keynotes out there, I'm down.
[00:44:33] I'd love to do them.
[00:44:35] Amazing.
[00:44:35] Thank you so much.
[00:44:36] It sounds like a really fascinating book.
[00:44:37] I'm excited to read it.
[00:44:39] Grace, it's been a blast being with you.
[00:44:41] All right.
[00:44:41] Thanks, Adam.
[00:44:42] Thank you, Grace.
[00:44:44] If this podcast means something to you,
[00:44:46] it would mean so much to me
[00:44:47] if you could do these couple things.
[00:44:49] One, go to the Heal with Grace Show page
[00:44:51] wherever you listen and tap the plus sign
[00:44:53] or click on the follow button
[00:44:55] so you don't miss an episode.
[00:44:56] It helps both of us out.
[00:44:58] While you're there, if you could give a five-star review
[00:45:01] so that this podcast can reach more people,
[00:45:04] it would mean so much to me
[00:45:05] so I can continue sharing episodes
[00:45:07] that help you as well as others.
[00:45:09] Thanks for listening,
[00:45:10] and I hope this brings you hope on your journey.