The Underlying Needs of Chronic Pain with Mike Williams

[00:00:00] Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Healed with Grace podcast.
[00:00:04] I'm excited for our guest today.
[00:00:06] We have Mike Williams, who is a pain reprocessing therapist,
[00:00:11] a coma practitioner, and Ralfor,
[00:00:13] who specializes in helping his clients move skillfully
[00:00:16] through challenges at the crossroads of chronic pain
[00:00:19] and personal growth using somatic psychology, mindfulness,
[00:00:22] and neuroscience-based techniques.
[00:00:24] Mike has helped people embody safety and ease
[00:00:27] physically, mentally, and emotionally
[00:00:28] and solve chronic pain since 2008.
[00:00:30] Prior to that, he had a 10-year career in investment baking
[00:00:33] and corporate finance and spent two years as a Lake Tahoe ski bum.
[00:00:37] His private practice is located in Austin, Texas
[00:00:40] and online with clients nationwide.
[00:00:42] This is another really nourishing conversation
[00:00:45] to help you understand the connection between our pain
[00:00:49] and the psycho and emotional connection.
[00:00:52] So what's going on in the mind?
[00:00:53] What's going on emotionally that connects
[00:00:55] to our physical body with pain?
[00:00:56] Mike is really skillful at talking about this
[00:00:59] and sharing examples of how this happens with his clients
[00:01:02] and in general.
[00:01:03] And I'm really excited to have him on here
[00:01:06] and I hope that you enjoy.
[00:01:08] Hey there, and welcome to Heal with Grace.
[00:01:11] I'm your host, Grace Secker,
[00:01:12] and I'm a holistic licensed therapist
[00:01:14] and nervous system coach who believes that the chronic
[00:01:17] and often unseen symptoms you're living with
[00:01:19] are a sign of something deeper going on.
[00:01:22] A sign that your nervous system needs attention.
[00:01:24] In each episode, I'll share the science
[00:01:26] behind the most common chronic health disorders
[00:01:29] plus holistic health tips using mental, physical,
[00:01:32] and spiritual practices.
[00:01:33] You'll hear what I've learned in my journey
[00:01:35] and the true stories from our trusted guests
[00:01:38] so you can feel less alone in your experience
[00:01:40] and give yourself grace no matter what you're going through.
[00:01:43] So without further ado,
[00:01:45] settle in and get cozy.
[00:01:46] It's time to heal with Grace.
[00:01:49] Hello, Mike.
[00:01:50] Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
[00:01:52] I'm really excited for our conversation today.
[00:01:55] Hey Grace, it's a pleasure to meet you and to be here today.
[00:01:57] I've been really looking forward to it.
[00:01:59] Cool. Well, let's go ahead and just jump in
[00:02:01] and tell our audience a little bit about you,
[00:02:04] how you came to specialize in this work.
[00:02:06] There's always a story behind it, so I'm curious.
[00:02:09] It's one of those life stories,
[00:02:11] so I'll try to be succinct for sure.
[00:02:13] But this is my second career that I'm in.
[00:02:17] I actually began my professional life
[00:02:19] in investment banking and finance out of college
[00:02:22] for about a decade.
[00:02:23] And that was ultimately not speaking to the parts of me
[00:02:28] that wanted to contribute
[00:02:29] and do something that felt deeply meaningful.
[00:02:32] Like many people, I think in these fields,
[00:02:35] I began a search for what would feel impactful for me.
[00:02:39] And I didn't know it at the time,
[00:02:42] but where I was really referencing and calling back on
[00:02:46] was a lot from my childhood
[00:02:48] and growing up with two parents that had chronic pain
[00:02:51] and chronic health challenges.
[00:02:52] And what I had, I think taken on,
[00:02:57] of course, unbeknownst to me as a young person,
[00:02:59] a real desire to want people to feel more empowered
[00:03:04] around their health and chronic challenges.
[00:03:07] I was mainly fortunate to not have to navigate these myself,
[00:03:11] but I lived them in many ways through my family system
[00:03:14] and through my parents' experience.
[00:03:16] So as I transitioned from finance,
[00:03:19] I'm kind of this long journey to figure out,
[00:03:21] like, what's my why and what do I really wanna do
[00:03:23] when I grow up?
[00:03:24] I started out initially opening up private practice
[00:03:29] as a Rolfer, which is a type of structural body work,
[00:03:32] which you may be familiar with in the Boulder area.
[00:03:33] That's kind of the hub for Rolfering up there.
[00:03:36] And I dove into that practice,
[00:03:38] working 95% with people that had chronic pain issues.
[00:03:43] After a couple of years and really getting
[00:03:46] my experience under my belt, working with clients,
[00:03:49] what I began to become more aware of with my clients
[00:03:54] was the maybe often fleeting nature of improvement
[00:03:59] with kind of structural focused work.
[00:04:02] And so I remember very clearly a couple of times
[00:04:04] having these great sessions with folks,
[00:04:07] their bodies would shift noticeably
[00:04:09] like we'd each recognize, like, wow,
[00:04:11] there's some really good improvement here.
[00:04:13] They would report, like, I feel so much better.
[00:04:15] And then I would watch them walk down the hall to leave
[00:04:17] and you could see their bodies just kind of
[00:04:19] put the stuff back on, you know,
[00:04:21] whether it was postural habits, personality kind of traits
[00:04:26] that get embodied, things like that,
[00:04:28] that kind of been the way they walked in the door.
[00:04:30] So that sent me down the rabbit hole, I guess,
[00:04:34] of really getting curious about the psycho-emotional realms
[00:04:37] and how those were, you know,
[00:04:39] like the software, I guess,
[00:04:40] is kind of how I've referred to them often
[00:04:42] with my clients underneath the hardware
[00:04:44] of what was going on in their bodies
[00:04:46] around their crawling pain.
[00:04:48] So then I began this long study of Hakome,
[00:04:51] which is a mindfulness-based somatic psychology method,
[00:04:54] studying and training in that for years
[00:04:56] and ultimately becoming certified as a Hakome practitioner.
[00:04:59] And then as I began to blend that
[00:05:01] and those types of mindfulness-driven explorations
[00:05:05] with my clients and my roughing practice
[00:05:07] kind of spontaneously with my clients
[00:05:10] came across this connectivity
[00:05:12] between emotional fields or experiences
[00:05:15] and the pain that was unfolding in the body.
[00:05:18] So what happened with many of my clients
[00:05:21] was the thing that hurt
[00:05:23] that surely must be just something wrong
[00:05:25] with my neck or traps or back
[00:05:28] began to illuminate deeper challenges
[00:05:31] going on in their lives,
[00:05:32] whether it was a relational challenge,
[00:05:34] something about their career path,
[00:05:36] which I of course could resonate with
[00:05:37] from my own experience
[00:05:39] or any number of other life path kind of challenges.
[00:05:42] So I feel like in many ways I stumbled a little blindly
[00:05:46] into a lot of the principles
[00:05:48] underneath pain reprocessing therapy,
[00:05:50] but I had no clue about PRT.
[00:05:52] And then a few years back,
[00:05:53] I came across Alan Gordon's book and I read it
[00:05:56] and I was like, oh, this and that,
[00:05:58] I'm now a PRT practitioner
[00:06:00] and that really gave me this amazing framework for,
[00:06:04] not only, okay, what is happening here
[00:06:06] at a neuroscientific level,
[00:06:08] but also gave me a lot greater language
[00:06:11] and understanding about the neuroscience of chronic pain,
[00:06:13] which I didn't have any clue about
[00:06:15] before working with my clients.
[00:06:17] I think that PRT training kind of put the cherry
[00:06:20] on top of a lot of the work
[00:06:22] that I'd been kind of formulating
[00:06:24] and co-creating with my clients for years.
[00:06:27] Mm, you put it all together.
[00:06:29] Yeah, that's interesting.
[00:06:31] It's also interesting you talk about, you know,
[00:06:33] growing up with parents
[00:06:34] with went through a lot of these issues
[00:06:36] because you are, you see it, you feel it,
[00:06:40] you probably hear about pain all the time.
[00:06:42] I actually, as well, both of my parents,
[00:06:44] multiple different issues, lots of pain,
[00:06:46] and that's just, you know, what I knew.
[00:06:48] We always had health stuff in our house
[00:06:50] and I took it on.
[00:06:52] So yeah, it's definitely can be a learned pattern too.
[00:06:56] Absolutely.
[00:06:57] And it's the ways that that kind of experience
[00:07:00] becomes the water that you're growing up in, right?
[00:07:04] And the way that you formulate your own relationship
[00:07:07] with others and to self through that modeling and experience.
[00:07:11] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:07:12] So tell us a little bit more about what Hakomi is.
[00:07:15] I keep hearing really wonderful things about it.
[00:07:18] Yeah, so the name technically
[00:07:21] is Hakomi Mindful Sematic Psychology
[00:07:23] and it's really what it sounds like.
[00:07:25] It's a, you know, body-based psychology practice,
[00:07:28] meaning it's looking to understand
[00:07:30] what are the psycho-emotional challenges
[00:07:34] as they live through the soma or the body
[00:07:37] and that's kind of the way that
[00:07:39] a Hakomi practitioner or therapist will explore
[00:07:42] whatever challenges are going on for a client.
[00:07:44] It's through the lens of, you know, what's happening
[00:07:47] in this present moment that you can track
[00:07:48] whether it's a felt experience in your body
[00:07:51] and your emotions, how does the thought or memory
[00:07:54] or imagined space mentally kind of show up here,
[00:07:59] you know, in the body as we are in conversation.
[00:08:02] Mindfulness is the main tool with which we work.
[00:08:06] You know, not as the goal of, you know,
[00:08:10] using it in order to say relax, you know,
[00:08:13] or for stress relief, but in order to open the doorway
[00:08:16] into slowing down and being able
[00:08:20] to really skillfully self-reflect in the moment
[00:08:23] and moment to moment to moment about,
[00:08:24] okay, well, what's happening now
[00:08:25] and how can we deepen into that experience?
[00:08:28] As a Hakomi practitioner works with their clients,
[00:08:31] we're often looking at maybe a specific challenge
[00:08:34] they wanna work with.
[00:08:35] Of course, pain is, you know,
[00:08:37] the one that I mainly focus on with my clients
[00:08:39] and we're studying and learning
[00:08:42] how is the meaning-making systems
[00:08:45] of this person constructed?
[00:08:47] You know, what challenges are very often
[00:08:51] habitually or subconsciously there
[00:08:52] that they can't see until they are able to slow down
[00:08:55] and really feel an experience live in the moment.
[00:08:57] And when we come across those challenged places,
[00:09:02] how can we explore a really an experiential way together
[00:09:06] so that they can take it out into the world
[00:09:08] and try new things to move through those spaces
[00:09:12] that might be sticky, stuck, painful,
[00:09:16] whether that's painful physically
[00:09:17] or otherwise, you know, non-physically?
[00:09:20] When you said slow down and start to recognize, right?
[00:09:23] I mean, I talk about that all the time on here.
[00:09:26] We cannot understand what's going on
[00:09:29] if we're not slowing down
[00:09:30] and usually when our nervous systems
[00:09:32] are in such a state of stress, it's hard to do that, right?
[00:09:36] So can you give an example of what that might look like
[00:09:39] in terms of what would someone do
[00:09:42] to help to apply this practice,
[00:09:45] whether that's themselves or a practitioner?
[00:09:46] How would this work?
[00:09:47] A live kind of client story I can share if that's useful.
[00:09:50] So this would be, you know, with a practitioner,
[00:09:53] I tend to find that these things are always easier,
[00:09:56] although there are certainly some self-work available,
[00:09:59] but, you know, very often you're getting
[00:10:01] into these subconscious layers of ourselves
[00:10:04] and it's like the fish not knowing it's in water.
[00:10:06] You know, sometimes it's hard to see that water
[00:10:09] from within without the help initially.
[00:10:12] But as just an example, I had a client
[00:10:15] who actually came in to see me for Rolfen
[00:10:18] for very intentionally structural
[00:10:22] for chronic neck and shoulder pain,
[00:10:24] something that, you know, many, many people experience,
[00:10:27] especially in the professional world.
[00:10:29] They had tried all the things, you know,
[00:10:31] all the biomedical things, you know,
[00:10:33] Rolfen previously too, physical therapy,
[00:10:36] corticosteroid injections,
[00:10:39] getting screened for any injury, things of that nature.
[00:10:42] And, you know, after years of trying just nothing
[00:10:44] was really clicking for this person.
[00:10:47] Because they were coming in for Rolfen,
[00:10:48] we began there and it was, you know,
[00:10:50] very much a structurally oriented beginning.
[00:10:53] But what became clear through our conversation pretty quickly,
[00:10:56] this person was just very skillful
[00:10:59] in their ability to, you know,
[00:11:02] tune in and report what was going on.
[00:11:04] It became clear to me like there's,
[00:11:06] I think there's something else kind of going on.
[00:11:08] So after our first session, you know,
[00:11:11] doing body work had, you know,
[00:11:13] decent in the moment benefit didn't last,
[00:11:15] you know, kind of a pretty typical story.
[00:11:18] So I proposed doing Hakomi work
[00:11:20] to go a little deeper to see if there was something
[00:11:23] more in the emotional or psychological realms
[00:11:25] that might be working in the software
[00:11:28] or underneath the surface.
[00:11:30] And so we just began with tuning this person in
[00:11:34] mindfully to slow down, let's explore the pain
[00:11:38] and let's get to know, you know,
[00:11:40] how it is unfolding in this moment in their body.
[00:11:44] It's very kind of typical beginning for Hakomi.
[00:11:47] At some point, I had some information
[00:11:50] about some of the challenges in their lives
[00:11:52] and their life around work,
[00:11:55] particularly for this individual
[00:11:56] and just their relationship to work in general.
[00:11:59] So in Hakomi, as you deepen,
[00:12:02] we'll do what's often referred to as experiments
[00:12:06] in mindfulness where we wanna offer some sort of
[00:12:10] kind and potentially nourishing prompt of some sort.
[00:12:13] It might be words, it might be movement,
[00:12:15] it might be physical contact if you're in proximity,
[00:12:18] right, could be a creative visualization.
[00:12:20] The idea is it's meant to illuminate
[00:12:23] some deeper layers of subconscious information
[00:12:25] in that moment that might spontaneously come up
[00:12:28] and give us some clues about what's going on.
[00:12:30] So with this person, while we were mindfulness,
[00:12:33] I offered this experiment.
[00:12:34] It was just these very simple kind words, you know,
[00:12:36] with the idea like, hey, just don't need to take this on,
[00:12:39] just see what naturally responds in your system.
[00:12:43] And I offered her the words, it's okay to rest,
[00:12:46] which in theory is a very nice thing to hear, right?
[00:12:49] It could potentially be very nourishing,
[00:12:51] but in this person's system, what happened spontaneously
[00:12:54] was just like this, like, no,
[00:12:56] like this really resistant tension in the body,
[00:13:00] the pain completely spiked and amplified in their body
[00:13:04] and the words in their head were like, no way.
[00:13:08] And so right there in that, through the Hakomi lens,
[00:13:12] you know you're onto what's known as like a barrier
[00:13:15] to something that might be nourishing,
[00:13:16] like this whole notion of like,
[00:13:17] is rest might be nourishing for you.
[00:13:19] And something was constructed in their system
[00:13:21] that made the idea unsafe or not chasteable
[00:13:26] in that moment, right?
[00:13:28] So then it, for us, it was just very clear like,
[00:13:30] okay, this is not a physical body thing.
[00:13:32] So the work then unfolds toward understanding
[00:13:36] there's something in here keeping rest at bay
[00:13:39] and it's important, right?
[00:13:40] It's not a bad thing, right?
[00:13:42] Most likely it was constructed by a younger version
[00:13:45] of this person who was trying to get
[00:13:48] through their world skillfully.
[00:13:50] And so, you know, first we're learning to understand
[00:13:53] how does that challenge with rest show up in their system?
[00:13:58] You know, mentally, physically, emotionally.
[00:13:59] And then how can we experiment together
[00:14:02] with opening up the door in some new way
[00:14:04] to, you know, rest might possibly be okay?
[00:14:08] And that's, you know, that's kind of like
[00:14:09] this deepening process into the psycho-emotional realms,
[00:14:13] the subconscious realms that Hakomi is really good at.
[00:14:16] For this person, it became very connected
[00:14:19] not just to like rest,
[00:14:20] but also a particular relationship professionally
[00:14:24] that was challenging, boundary setting,
[00:14:26] you know, in their lives and relationship,
[00:14:29] things of that nature and through finding ways
[00:14:32] through those challenges that the pain resolved
[00:14:34] and those challenges became much more reachable
[00:14:38] and easier to step through in their lives.
[00:14:43] So what I'm, and tell me if I'm on track
[00:14:46] is that part of the process,
[00:14:49] and I'm using different words,
[00:14:50] but is to help to understand what is activating, right?
[00:14:55] On a psychological emotional level.
[00:14:56] And so you're experimenting with them
[00:15:00] to figure out what is activating like rest is activating
[00:15:02] or certain things in life is activating,
[00:15:04] which would increase the pain, right?
[00:15:08] And then on the other side of that, you know,
[00:15:11] we talk about using or establishing safety,
[00:15:13] like in the body with PRT.
[00:15:15] So then what does that look like within a session
[00:15:18] in helping people understand
[00:15:20] how to establish that safety with themselves
[00:15:22] as they're recognizing what's activating?
[00:15:24] Absolutely, yeah.
[00:15:26] And I often use the words,
[00:15:27] I don't know that this is specific Hakomi language,
[00:15:31] but you know, you mentioned safety as an example.
[00:15:34] And for this person, you know,
[00:15:36] the idea of like being able to rest seems logical
[00:15:40] and that might help their body lower the signal
[00:15:43] in their nervous system on the pain,
[00:15:45] but it was very unsafe to do so.
[00:15:47] And it's not as simple or black and white as like,
[00:15:51] well, just take a vacation or put your job, you know,
[00:15:54] or something like really, really big.
[00:15:56] And so it's very iterative that we're working together
[00:15:59] like, well, how much is digestible
[00:16:02] in your nervous system, right?
[00:16:03] How much can you integrate?
[00:16:05] So, you know, for folks, I come from a,
[00:16:08] probably what I would call like a very type A background
[00:16:10] having been in investment banking.
[00:16:12] And so I tend to work with a lot of type A type folks
[00:16:15] if type A is even used these days, I don't know if it is,
[00:16:17] but the experimenting together became looking for like,
[00:16:21] what's the right sized window?
[00:16:23] And, you know, sometimes it starts like,
[00:16:25] okay, for the next like two minutes,
[00:16:27] like it's okay to just like totally not do.
[00:16:31] And even that can be really challenging for folks, right?
[00:16:35] Or unsafe.
[00:16:36] And so things like really trying to find the nuance
[00:16:39] of what's the right window for this person
[00:16:42] to establish safety or ease,
[00:16:44] centeredness in their nervous systems.
[00:16:46] I think Hakomi is really skillful at,
[00:16:49] you know, finding those right doors in that way.
[00:16:52] Yeah, you're right.
[00:16:54] And that I think a lot of times
[00:16:57] it is kind of misunderstood
[00:16:59] when we talk about safety or rest.
[00:17:02] I mean, I think rest is a big one for a lot of people.
[00:17:04] It's really hard to do that for so many reasons, right?
[00:17:07] We either learned that,
[00:17:08] we lived in society that perpetuates type A behavior
[00:17:11] and go, go, go.
[00:17:12] And it's not okay to do that
[00:17:14] because then we're not enough.
[00:17:16] And so, yeah, I like that idea or that example
[00:17:19] of sometimes it's just two minutes
[00:17:21] of allowing yourself to just be
[00:17:23] and rest in this moment, right?
[00:17:25] Because it's not gonna feel safe to be like,
[00:17:27] go take a week off and do nothing.
[00:17:28] Like that doesn't work, right?
[00:17:30] Or that's not sustainable.
[00:17:31] Well, it's so big for a lot of folks.
[00:17:34] It's just an idea, yeah.
[00:17:35] Or even taking a day, yeah.
[00:17:38] Okay, so something came up as you were talking
[00:17:40] and through really just the whole modality that you work in.
[00:17:44] Do you approach and maybe bring to people
[00:17:47] the different centers of the body associated
[00:17:50] with certain emotions or beliefs?
[00:17:54] Does that make sense?
[00:17:55] You elaborate a little more on what you mean.
[00:17:57] Yeah, help me out.
[00:17:58] It might be more in the back of your mind
[00:18:00] when you're working with someone,
[00:18:01] but how there's certain emotional centers of the body
[00:18:06] that associate with certain structural centers of the body
[00:18:09] that's probably a better way of saying it, right?
[00:18:12] Maybe that's associated with the shocker system.
[00:18:13] Maybe that's associated with whatever that might be.
[00:18:17] Does that inform your work with where you go?
[00:18:19] With someone, I just thought of that
[00:18:20] as you were talking about kind of tracking the body.
[00:18:22] It's a great question.
[00:18:23] And I get a lot of folks that come in
[00:18:26] that have exposure or even practices related
[00:18:30] to areas of work like that,
[00:18:32] whether it's maybe a yoga practice
[00:18:34] or shamanic type practice or something else.
[00:18:37] The way I try to approach this work
[00:18:40] is a little belief agnostic, right?
[00:18:42] Because for some folks that that's not
[00:18:44] how they're meaning making systems organize.
[00:18:48] And so I don't try to,
[00:18:51] and I think it might hit resistance
[00:18:53] if you try to infer that with certain folks.
[00:18:55] Now, if it works for others
[00:18:57] and it's the way they've kind of constructed meaning
[00:19:00] in their body and psyches,
[00:19:01] I have shocker systems that feel potent or not potent.
[00:19:08] That can weave really well into the work
[00:19:10] because you are going into an exploration
[00:19:13] of that particular person's belief set,
[00:19:16] how their body and psyche respond
[00:19:19] to different prompts and experiences.
[00:19:21] And so if those things come out,
[00:19:23] then it can be very rich exploration,
[00:19:25] but it's not like a requirement, you know, say,
[00:19:28] or it's not necessarily a specific model of the work
[00:19:31] to do those maps, right?
[00:19:33] Yeah, and I actually appreciate you saying that
[00:19:35] because it's, everyone is different, right?
[00:19:38] Everyone has a different association with their emotions
[00:19:42] or their pain or their belief systems in life.
[00:19:45] Their experience shapes that, right?
[00:19:46] And I think sometimes I see with a lot of people
[00:19:49] that they learn about someone's story or experience
[00:19:52] and they're like, oh, that's really similar to mine, right?
[00:19:54] And then they might try to take on
[00:19:56] that type of healing protocol
[00:19:57] or try to change their belief system
[00:19:59] the way that that person did,
[00:20:01] and it doesn't always fit that way.
[00:20:02] So yeah, I think that's an important thing to note.
[00:20:05] Yeah, and I can definitely resonate
[00:20:07] with that experimenting, right?
[00:20:08] When I was first approaching these different fields,
[00:20:13] especially coming from a very analytical,
[00:20:15] cognitive kind of business, you know,
[00:20:17] and moving into what all of my colleagues
[00:20:20] and friends from that field thought was really woo-woo.
[00:20:24] You know, I did a lot of my own.
[00:20:26] Like, this is very interesting.
[00:20:28] I'm gonna kind of take this on and try it on.
[00:20:30] And some worked and some didn't,
[00:20:31] and some worked for a while and then stopped working.
[00:20:35] And I think that's like a great part of the exploration,
[00:20:39] actually, for folks that are, you know,
[00:20:41] diving into these healing arts, healing type paths,
[00:20:45] if things speak to them.
[00:20:46] Yeah, I think that's true too.
[00:20:47] Because a lot of times we don't have the language
[00:20:49] or we don't have the idea, right?
[00:20:51] It's the same thing as the feelings wheel.
[00:20:54] I mean, if we can't understand and identify our feelings,
[00:20:56] we need to maybe look at something to help us.
[00:20:59] Yeah, we need suggestions sometimes.
[00:21:01] But I think trying it on and experimenting
[00:21:04] is the important part, not trying to make it fit.
[00:21:07] Absolutely, yeah.
[00:21:09] And I like to think, and this is straight out of Hakomi,
[00:21:12] and I know I'm like very Hakomi-centric
[00:21:15] in my conversation now,
[00:21:17] but it really feels like a big part of who I am
[00:21:20] and how I practice for sure.
[00:21:21] But there's this whole notion
[00:21:23] of just having an experimental mindset.
[00:21:25] Can you be open, try things out,
[00:21:28] literally take in the information,
[00:21:29] get the data, get the feedback,
[00:21:31] and then see yes, no, maybe more,
[00:21:35] and keep kind of moving down your path in that way.
[00:21:38] And I just have always loved that.
[00:21:39] It's embracing of a lot of different experience.
[00:21:41] It's very forgiving of having hits and misses
[00:21:44] along the way.
[00:21:45] Yeah, and I think it's so important for this population
[00:21:48] is we know we have a lot of people that are type A,
[00:21:50] that wanna grab onto something that needed that control
[00:21:53] and want something to be right, right off the bat,
[00:21:56] and that's not often how this works.
[00:21:59] And if we can come at it from a place of curiosity
[00:22:01] and experimentation,
[00:22:03] I mean, it's such a big part of this journey.
[00:22:06] So I love that, yeah.
[00:22:08] Yeah, and I think it speaks also directly
[00:22:12] to if we lean into PRT principles,
[00:22:16] like the notion of being open and curious about like,
[00:22:18] well, what's happening now rather than having like a must
[00:22:22] or a rigidity around whatever the experience might be.
[00:22:28] Yeah, that's been a big part of my learning experience
[00:22:30] because I wanted to get it right and oh, the pain went away.
[00:22:33] Okay, cool, I'm fixed, right?
[00:22:35] Or like I'm good and never is gonna happen before
[00:22:37] and then when it popped up,
[00:22:40] I was like, what am I doing wrong instead of the,
[00:22:42] okay, what is this?
[00:22:44] What's going on here?
[00:22:45] What's the next layer, right?
[00:22:48] Yeah, I'm really interested in coming now, I have to say.
[00:22:51] I think it's like, it's coming to me at the right time.
[00:22:54] Awesome, you're also located in like one of the hubs,
[00:22:58] so it's very Colorado-centric.
[00:23:01] There's so much here.
[00:23:02] It's so much rich healing modalities and principles
[00:23:04] and people and wanting to learn, it's really cool.
[00:23:07] So when we were talking before this, you mentioned,
[00:23:11] and you might have talked about it
[00:23:12] without naming it, so just let me know,
[00:23:14] but we talked about,
[00:23:15] or you talked about the idea of a character strategy
[00:23:18] and kind of making meaning or maybe stories around something.
[00:23:23] Can you explain a little bit more about what that is?
[00:23:24] Cause I thought it was something interesting
[00:23:26] I wanted to learn about.
[00:23:27] Yeah, so I teased it a little bit with my client story
[00:23:31] but didn't like pull it out explicitly,
[00:23:33] so I'm glad you asked.
[00:23:34] So the idea of character strategy in Hakomi is that,
[00:23:38] and I'm sure this is a model
[00:23:40] that parallels many other bodies of work,
[00:23:42] but it's through our natural child
[00:23:46] and young adult development,
[00:23:47] we encounter these major, all of us,
[00:23:50] these major existential challenges, right?
[00:23:52] Like just some base human experiences
[00:23:55] that we all need to negotiate.
[00:23:57] And sometimes we have support for those
[00:23:59] and sometimes we don't, right?
[00:24:01] And they're the big bucket things like safety
[00:24:04] and getting our needs met
[00:24:06] and feeling like we can authentically express who we are
[00:24:09] and having a sense of self-worth.
[00:24:12] Kind of the big things.
[00:24:14] And they're absolutely cases where we have abuse
[00:24:18] and outright neglect around certain of those
[00:24:21] and trauma around certain of those challenges.
[00:24:24] And there are also times where we just had to say
[00:24:28] a caregiver who missed us in a moment
[00:24:30] that we just really needed it.
[00:24:32] And it wasn't because they were being purposefully
[00:24:34] neglectful, it might've been like,
[00:24:36] mom was sick that day.
[00:24:37] And something was sticky about that challenge
[00:24:41] in that moment that I didn't have help navigating, right?
[00:24:44] So naturally we come to experiment
[00:24:49] around those times about like,
[00:24:50] well, how can I get this need met?
[00:24:51] You know, this challenge, how can I overcome it?
[00:24:54] And there's hit and misses there, of course,
[00:24:56] just like any new thing we're experiencing.
[00:24:58] But the ones that are successful,
[00:25:00] they tend to be kind of rerun through our system.
[00:25:04] Like, you know, somewhere inside of us
[00:25:05] we're like, oh, it worked this way.
[00:25:06] So we do it again and again and it becomes
[00:25:10] a most often subconscious habit set in our systems, right?
[00:25:16] So leaning on my previous client example,
[00:25:19] in that case the character strategy challenge
[00:25:23] might've been around that idea of self-worth.
[00:25:26] And the strategy that got enacted subconsciously
[00:25:31] was along the lines of,
[00:25:33] well, it's better not to really rest
[00:25:36] because something about productivity proves out my value
[00:25:40] to myself maybe and maybe to others as well, right?
[00:25:44] So the explorations within this body of work
[00:25:50] often kind of lead down into like,
[00:25:52] well, what's the strategy, the subconscious strategy
[00:25:54] that's trying to work itself out?
[00:25:57] And the important things to understand here are,
[00:26:01] these were good ones, right?
[00:26:02] It was something that we crafted, you know,
[00:26:05] some younger version of ourself and, you know, time.
[00:26:09] So they're innately, as I always like to tell my clients,
[00:26:12] they're always innately good at their core, right?
[00:26:14] They helped us get through a challenge
[00:26:16] and we're here today to scrutinize them
[00:26:19] or explore them as a result.
[00:26:21] But they just might be past their expiration date
[00:26:24] or they're resulting now today
[00:26:26] in some challenge that we're not happy with,
[00:26:30] whether it's chronic pain, right?
[00:26:32] Or another chronic type of ailment
[00:26:34] or certain ways of being in relationship
[00:26:37] or certain ways of walking the career path
[00:26:40] or certain ways of making meaning in the world, right?
[00:26:44] And those are, you know, in cases
[00:26:46] where people aren't navigating chronic pain,
[00:26:47] those are often the things that take them
[00:26:49] into counseling or therapy kind of environment as well.
[00:26:53] So the exploration there is, again, like, okay,
[00:26:57] well, what's this, what purpose is this serving?
[00:27:00] You know, from a lens of compassion and openness, right?
[00:27:03] And then it's trying to get a need met
[00:27:06] whether it's safety or self-worth
[00:27:08] or nourishment in some way.
[00:27:09] And what is a more up-to-date way
[00:27:13] that we can help that part of you get that need met, right?
[00:27:17] And in that case, going back to my client,
[00:27:20] it was like starting with like the two minutes of rest,
[00:27:22] say like to begin to prove out over and over
[00:27:26] to that part of the nervous system
[00:27:28] that it's actually okay to rest.
[00:27:31] And that doesn't change, you know,
[00:27:32] who you are or what kind of value you have, right?
[00:27:34] And expanding that over time.
[00:27:36] Yeah, so the idea is that the pain,
[00:27:39] for instance, if it's chronic pain,
[00:27:40] it's letting us know there's a certain need unmet
[00:27:43] that it's essentially asking us to understand and to give.
[00:27:46] Is that right?
[00:27:47] Potentially, yeah.
[00:27:48] If there's some connectivity from the pain
[00:27:50] to the psycho-emotional, right?
[00:27:51] I don't wanna presume that all pain
[00:27:53] has some psychological need, right?
[00:27:56] When those explorations kind of work their way to like,
[00:27:59] oh, I'm evoked in this scenario, right?
[00:28:03] And that's what's creating the pain, say like,
[00:28:07] okay, well, what's evoking that stress strain
[00:28:10] nervous system activity?
[00:28:12] I'm glad you're bringing this up
[00:28:13] because I think it's really important to understand
[00:28:15] that in terms of these scenarios with pain
[00:28:18] that keeps coming up and we can track them to,
[00:28:21] you know, something like your client like career
[00:28:23] and the need for rest that I've noticed sometimes
[00:28:26] and myself included, I would be like,
[00:28:29] almost guilt or shame would come up
[00:28:30] because I need that, right?
[00:28:33] It feels needy, it feels wrong
[00:28:35] or maybe how did I get here that I need this
[00:28:39] and I never really got that or gave it to myself
[00:28:41] or whatever it might be?
[00:28:43] Because there's sometimes with the need
[00:28:45] with chronic illness or pain,
[00:28:47] there's sometimes, I say sometimes,
[00:28:49] it's not everyone, but sometimes we track it down to like,
[00:28:52] actually it's really helping you feel seen
[00:28:54] and connected by people by getting taken care of, right?
[00:28:57] And that can sometimes feel a little like,
[00:28:59] ooh, scary to people
[00:29:01] because it can feel like I'm being needy,
[00:29:04] like it's a bad thing, but it's not.
[00:29:06] So that's where my brain went.
[00:29:07] So when you were talking
[00:29:08] and that it's just important to understand this
[00:29:10] instead of it be like, oh yeah,
[00:29:12] you have to have this, this and this.
[00:29:14] I think what you're saying Grace
[00:29:15] is such an important thing
[00:29:16] because it's really an easy place to get judgmental
[00:29:20] or self-critical about like,
[00:29:22] who I don't like that I'm doing this
[00:29:24] or that this is a part of me or whatever it might be, right?
[00:29:27] And that's where I'm forever trying to encourage my clients
[00:29:31] to remember like, you crafted this a long time ago
[00:29:34] and maybe even as a little kid
[00:29:37] and that little kid is sweet
[00:29:39] and we really value him or her, right?
[00:29:42] And what they're trying to do.
[00:29:43] So we first, when you start with compassion
[00:29:46] for that part of self
[00:29:47] and you're ready obviously for something new
[00:29:49] and how can we help you find that,
[00:29:51] like bridge that gap?
[00:29:52] But it's, yeah, that's definitely a place
[00:29:56] where that curiosity and compassion
[00:29:59] have become really, really important
[00:30:00] because it can be, yeah,
[00:30:01] it can be really, really frustrating to feel, say, needy.
[00:30:04] There's a part of me that I'm noticing now
[00:30:06] is being really needy or something.
[00:30:07] It's like even saying those words
[00:30:09] it doesn't feel good, right?
[00:30:10] And so it's a tricky space, but an important one.
[00:30:15] Exactly.
[00:30:15] And I mean, being human, we have needs.
[00:30:19] That's...
[00:30:20] Right.
[00:30:21] For so many things, that's just normal, right?
[00:30:24] But there's been, I think sometimes learned patterns
[00:30:28] where we feel like that's not right or good enough
[00:30:31] for something along those lines.
[00:30:34] Yeah.
[00:30:34] In our initial email exchange,
[00:30:36] prior to scheduling this,
[00:30:37] I mentioned to you like a client
[00:30:39] that what was underneath their pain
[00:30:41] was this self-reliance
[00:30:44] that it was really scary to ask for help.
[00:30:46] And so there was like exactly what you're saying.
[00:30:48] It's like, I have a need
[00:30:49] that I can't self-reliant my way through.
[00:30:52] And that's creating like a lot of intense
[00:30:55] kind of undercurrent that was fueling the pain.
[00:30:59] Mm, yeah, definitely.
[00:31:01] Is there anything else around
[00:31:04] some of the themes that we've talked about
[00:31:06] specific to Hukomi or just working through chronic pain
[00:31:09] that you feel like we haven't touched on
[00:31:11] that would be important?
[00:31:12] I think what's important to know
[00:31:14] is when I have clients that approach me, say, for PRT,
[00:31:19] I sometimes get the question like,
[00:31:20] am I gonna need to do deeper work?
[00:31:23] Am I gonna need to go explore
[00:31:26] my psycho-emotional subconscious?
[00:31:28] And what I've found to be mainly true
[00:31:31] is not necessarily, right?
[00:31:33] Like sometimes the PRT tools themselves
[00:31:37] like building in safety, somatic tracking,
[00:31:39] doing some gradual exposure, right?
[00:31:42] And getting really aware of the science
[00:31:44] so the cognitive pieces kind of fit into place
[00:31:46] a little better.
[00:31:47] Sometimes that's really enough for folks
[00:31:49] and it doesn't require like this big excavation
[00:31:53] of their lives.
[00:31:54] And then for others when things get a little sticky
[00:31:58] in the success or lack of success
[00:32:01] with just the PRT tools themselves,
[00:32:04] there's a good opportunity there
[00:32:06] to dig a little deeper into those other layers, right?
[00:32:10] And it doesn't even necessarily mean like,
[00:32:12] okay, now we have to go revisit
[00:32:14] all the aspects of your childhood that X, Y, or Z.
[00:32:17] It can be sometimes very succinct and elegant
[00:32:23] and not forever kind of digging through things.
[00:32:27] Yeah, I appreciate you saying that.
[00:32:29] I think that's very true.
[00:32:31] And again, we're all different.
[00:32:32] We have different journeys and experiences.
[00:32:34] And I think also what I've seen is that sometimes,
[00:32:38] you're right, some of those tools
[00:32:40] specifically with PRT really do work.
[00:32:43] And then there might be a few years later
[00:32:45] where things pop up.
[00:32:46] And maybe that's the time to go a little more
[00:32:49] because that's what your body's asking for.
[00:32:51] It's what your life can allow at that time.
[00:32:53] So I do think time and where you are
[00:32:56] and experience, I've seen just it matters.
[00:33:00] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:33:01] And then I think, you know, even as you're saying that,
[00:33:03] like there's like this little postscript I wanna add,
[00:33:05] which is it's also if it becomes right
[00:33:10] or apparent that it's important to dig deeper.
[00:33:13] It's not always about some big cathartic unraveling of things,
[00:33:18] right, which is a little bit in the field right now too
[00:33:21] with other types of healing modalities.
[00:33:24] And that's not always necessary.
[00:33:26] In fact, it doesn't necessarily integrate well
[00:33:29] to try to reach for catharsis, right?
[00:33:32] So it's that kind of skillful,
[00:33:34] what's just enough right now?
[00:33:36] What's just enough and then just enough again
[00:33:38] that I can really integrate and take on as new.
[00:33:42] But that's way more potent than like I need
[00:33:45] to detonate everything.
[00:33:48] Thank you, yes, yes, yes, that's so important
[00:33:51] because it can be too overwhelming for your system
[00:33:54] if you try to go and dig for something
[00:33:55] and it doesn't really make sense in that way for everyone.
[00:34:00] Yeah, that was very, very important.
[00:34:02] Okay, thank you so much.
[00:34:04] This has been such a wonderful conversation.
[00:34:06] Yeah, you're welcome, what a pleasure.
[00:34:08] Yeah, how do you, what do you do right now?
[00:34:11] Where do you work?
[00:34:12] How do people find you?
[00:34:14] Yeah, so I'm, my home base is in Austin, Texas,
[00:34:17] but I mainly work virtual.
[00:34:18] So I have clients, of course,
[00:34:20] many centered around central Texas,
[00:34:23] but often around the country
[00:34:25] and occasionally internationally,
[00:34:26] someone finds me, which is fun and interesting.
[00:34:28] People can generally find me the best way is website,
[00:34:32] which is somamike.com, S-O-M-A-M-I-K-E, dot com.
[00:34:37] And I'm more or less out there on socials,
[00:34:40] Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn,
[00:34:42] somamike.williams is my handle for those.
[00:34:45] Cool, and we'll have all those linked,
[00:34:47] just a simple curious question.
[00:34:49] How is Austin these days?
[00:34:51] Well, today it's rainy and gray,
[00:34:53] and last week, we're recording this
[00:34:56] and it's still winter technically,
[00:34:57] but last week was like almost 90 degrees.
[00:35:01] So it's fun, it's hot sometimes,
[00:35:03] it's rainy other times, it's a good city.
[00:35:06] Yeah, it's a great place for asking.
[00:35:09] All right, Mike.
[00:35:10] And again, yeah, everything for your information
[00:35:12] will be linked below.
[00:35:13] Again, thank you so much.
[00:35:15] These principles are so, so important
[00:35:17] for people to understand and to feel validated
[00:35:20] and I think some of the messages that we had today.
[00:35:21] So thank you again.
[00:35:23] You're welcome.
[00:35:24] I hope it was really helpful for your folks.
[00:35:27] Definitely.
[00:35:29] If this podcast means something to you,
[00:35:30] it would mean so much to me
[00:35:32] if you could do these couple things.
[00:35:34] One, go to the Heal With Grace show page
[00:35:36] wherever you listen and tap the plus sign
[00:35:38] or click on the follow button
[00:35:39] so you don't miss an episode.
[00:35:41] It helps both of us out.
[00:35:43] While you're there, if you could give a five star review
[00:35:46] so that this podcast can reach more people,
[00:35:49] it would mean so much to me
[00:35:50] so I can continue sharing episodes
[00:35:52] that help you as well as others.
[00:35:54] Thanks for listening
[00:35:55] and I hope this brings you hope on your journey.