Healing Chronic Pain as an Athlete with Charlie Merrill

[00:00:00] Hello, hello. Welcome back to the Heal with Grace podcast. I
[00:00:04] have a guest today who you are going to absolutely love. His
[00:00:09] name is Charlie Merrill and he's a licensed physical
[00:00:12] therapist and mind body symptom specialist based in Boulder,
[00:00:15] Colorado. He is the founder of Merrill Performance, a practice
[00:00:20] focused on helping individuals overcome pain and injury
[00:00:23] based on a biopsychosocial approach. He emphasizes the
[00:00:26] importance of addressing not just the physical aspects of
[00:00:29] pain, but also the psychological and social factors that
[00:00:33] contribute to it. He is particularly known for his work
[00:00:36] with persistent or chronic pain conditions, integrating
[00:00:39] manual therapy, movement, modern pain science, and
[00:00:42] psychology with a patient centered approach. His aim is to
[00:00:46] empower his clients to go beyond managing and coping to
[00:00:49] recover from symptoms. He's also a speaker and educator on
[00:00:52] topics related to pain, rehabilitation and human
[00:00:55] performance. And I just have to say that because he's coming
[00:01:00] from a physical practitioner standpoint, he can give real
[00:01:04] feedback and validation when the physical body is in pain,
[00:01:10] right? That it's not the physical, it is actually the
[00:01:13] mental and emotional. I personally have seen him as
[00:01:16] well when I was having a really sticky situation with
[00:01:19] part of my body and didn't understand what was going on
[00:01:22] even though I know this work and after seeing him
[00:01:25] really helped me shift some of what I recognized and what I
[00:01:28] understood what was going on. And I share a little bit about
[00:01:31] that in this episode as well. So I'm just going to go ahead and
[00:01:34] jump right in because the way that he speaks about things is
[00:01:38] just wonderful. And let's just go ahead and get started.
[00:01:43] Hey there, and welcome to Heal with Grace. I'm your host,
[00:01:46] Grace Secker, and I'm a holistic licensed therapist and
[00:01:49] nervous system coach who believes that the chronic and
[00:01:51] often unseen symptoms you're living with are a sign of
[00:01:54] something deeper going on. A sign that your nervous system
[00:01:57] needs attention. In each episode, I'll share the science
[00:02:01] behind the most common chronic health disorders plus
[00:02:04] holistic health tips using mental, physical and spiritual
[00:02:07] practices. You'll hear what I've learned in my journey and
[00:02:10] the true stories from our trusted guests so you can feel
[00:02:13] less alone in your experience and give yourself grace no
[00:02:16] matter what you're going through. So without further ado,
[00:02:19] settle in and get cozy. It's time to Heal with Grace.
[00:02:24] Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Heal with Grace
[00:02:27] podcast. I have a very special guest, Charlie Merrill, who is
[00:02:31] a PT here in Boulder, who specializes in working with
[00:02:35] chronic pain and athletes. And I'm really excited for this
[00:02:37] episode because as we were just talking, not a lot of times
[00:02:41] athletes get the attention that they need when it comes to
[00:02:43] chronic pain. So we're going to hear all about that and
[00:02:46] we're just going to jump right in. So thanks for coming
[00:02:48] on, Charlie, and tell us a little bit about yourself.
[00:02:51] Yeah, thank you for having me. I've been talking with groups of
[00:02:54] people all morning. So I'm so happy to be here like one on one
[00:02:57] with you and to have this conversation about a topic that
[00:03:01] is one of my favorite topics because I live in Boulder,
[00:03:04] Colorado, which is one of the most active, you know, probably
[00:03:09] cities in the country, maybe in the world. And while I don't
[00:03:12] just work with athletes, because I am one, I feel an
[00:03:16] obligation to share these ideas with that group because
[00:03:19] they don't get that, right? They don't get these messages,
[00:03:22] especially not early, if at all, if ever. And unfortunately,
[00:03:28] that leads to some pretty poor outcomes. So I'm a physical
[00:03:31] therapist by training. I grew up in the body work world,
[00:03:37] thinking that my job was to find what was wrong with people
[00:03:40] and fix them and use my hands to manipulate their tissues
[00:03:43] and, you know, make them better. And, you know, that
[00:03:46] worked pretty well for some people for the first 10
[00:03:49] years of my career, until I realized that something really
[00:03:52] important was missing. And that's when I decide, you know,
[00:03:56] realized in the face of emerging pain science research that I
[00:03:59] really needed to change my practice. And so I sort of felt
[00:04:02] like I needed to almost exit the mainstream medical system to
[00:04:05] do that well, and create my own destiny. And so narrow
[00:04:09] performance was sort of an outgrowth of that necessity.
[00:04:13] And it's been interesting, because, you know, I realized
[00:04:16] quickly that I wasn't just going to be able to reinvent
[00:04:19] the wheel and do what I was doing, but I had to create a
[00:04:20] totally new product. And the emergence of this science,
[00:04:25] timing wise, was really perfect to be able to do that. Because
[00:04:28] as we, you know, the paradigm around how we conceptualize
[00:04:32] and treat chronic symptoms of all kinds has really changed
[00:04:35] a lot. And it's changed my life a lot as an athlete, too.
[00:04:39] The way I approach exercise has completely changed. As I've
[00:04:43] learned more about myself and why I was and am the way I
[00:04:48] am, what drives me, what motivates me with my intention,
[00:04:51] I'm sure we'll get into some of these things today. But for the
[00:04:53] audience, you know, I'm a lifelong athlete, I have competed
[00:04:57] at a pretty high level, high amateur level, never been a
[00:05:00] professional at anything, because I tend to like to do
[00:05:02] lots of different things. So my identity as an athlete, as
[00:05:06] I've entered my 50s is really diverse. And I play a lot of
[00:05:10] different sports and engage in a lot of different types of
[00:05:12] movement, which I feel like has really helped me as I've
[00:05:15] gotten older, to keep it fun and keep it interesting and
[00:05:19] playful and sustainable, right? So what else do you want to know
[00:05:23] about me?
[00:05:24] Well, I'm curious, what was that point where you said you
[00:05:27] recognize you needed to shift and why was it then?
[00:05:31] Yeah, I think some of it was the reality that I couldn't
[00:05:34] ignore the science anymore. I'm a Sagittarius if you're
[00:05:37] into astrology, I'm a true I am too. So I couldn't. Okay,
[00:05:40] thank you. So you know, we can't ignore the truth. And I
[00:05:44] think I recognize it as much time and effort and money as I
[00:05:47] put into getting really good at trigger point needling,
[00:05:49] manipulating and analyzing gait and making orthotics and, you
[00:05:53] know, prescribing exercise, there was a pretty large subset
[00:05:56] of people that wasn't responding the way I expected to
[00:05:59] that. And simultaneously, as I was starting my practice, I
[00:06:02] recognize like, that my special sauce wasn't that I was the
[00:06:06] best clinician, you know, manipulator, needler, or I
[00:06:10] wasn't the best technically in the world, there were lots
[00:06:13] of people, especially in Boulder, it's a very competitive
[00:06:15] town, lots of people that are better at that than I was. And I
[00:06:18] started to realize like my special sauce was my ability to
[00:06:21] connect with people. My therapeutic client skills, we call
[00:06:24] them right, my relational skills. And that was actually what
[00:06:28] was getting people better. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, like
[00:06:31] this makes so much sense. Combine that with the science
[00:06:34] combine that with my own personal life experience with my
[00:06:37] own back pain in my 20s when I read John Sarno for the
[00:06:41] first time. And I always had this idea that like, we need
[00:06:44] hope, fear is bad, and we need to avoid that. And we need to
[00:06:48] support people, right, and being getting back in their
[00:06:50] bodies in a positive way. You know, I realized like I need to
[00:06:55] go back to that. And I need to really take a deep dive,
[00:06:58] because I think that's what's missing. And I instantly got
[00:07:01] connected with all the most amazing clinicians who are
[00:07:03] now my mentors, that I feel fortunate in this community,
[00:07:07] as you know, connecting with people like you and others,
[00:07:09] it's like such a diverse, amazing group of people that are
[00:07:14] working hard to change the the paradigm. So here we are.
[00:07:18] Yeah, definitely. It is it's a very special community and one
[00:07:21] that feels expansive and very conclusive, right, where
[00:07:24] everyone's really working to change how we approach pain.
[00:07:28] And there's so much power behind that. So when you
[00:07:31] mentioned, okay, you're doing all these physical
[00:07:32] practices for PT, right, all the traditional types of
[00:07:35] practices, but you shifted that what does your
[00:07:38] practice look like now? Yeah, good question. I still do a lot
[00:07:42] of those interventions. I still look at the body as a big
[00:07:46] sensory organ through which I can introduce information to
[00:07:50] the brain nervous system to create change, right? So I
[00:07:53] help try to help people understand that I'm not
[00:07:56] sticking needles in them or manipulating joints because I'm
[00:07:59] trying to fix something in their body. I'm doing that
[00:08:02] because I'm trying to support their subconscious part of
[00:08:05] their nervous system and going from a dangerous state to
[00:08:08] more of a safety state. And for a lot of people, especially
[00:08:10] for a lot of athletes, in the short term, that can really
[00:08:14] be helpful to create quick change. So then we can get to
[00:08:18] the what I consider the primary drivers of symptoms, like
[00:08:23] stress and emotions and these things in people's lives that
[00:08:26] they would never connect to pain because they're so focused
[00:08:28] on biomechanics and volume and intensity and, you know,
[00:08:32] their training load. I want them to understand that
[00:08:35] things like their relationship and their finances and their
[00:08:38] family and these more existential life questions are
[00:08:41] actually what's going to help them recover for good. But I'm
[00:08:44] going to use body work in the short term. This is maybe kick
[00:08:47] start that process. Remembering that I don't you know, the
[00:08:51] body has a mind and the mind has a body like the reason
[00:08:54] we're in this situation in the first place is because we
[00:08:57] tried to treat the body without considering the mind. So
[00:08:59] what we don't want to do is start treating the brain and
[00:09:02] leave the body behind. So I'm really careful to not make this
[00:09:07] like a pendulum swing in the opposite direction. Because
[00:09:11] the fascia and the muscles and the 10 is like, it's a great
[00:09:14] way to get into the brain and to create change. It's
[00:09:17] probably the simplest way I can say it. But we have to do it
[00:09:19] with with an eye on not increasing fear and not
[00:09:22] inadvertently sending the wrong message to people that
[00:09:25] something's wrong with their body because that bias is so
[00:09:29] strong. And it subconsciously creates so much fear. So it's
[00:09:33] a slippery slope, I would say. So I walk that line with
[00:09:35] people every day. I also recognize that while people
[00:09:39] can understand that all pain is constructed and
[00:09:42] experienced in the brain that we need to talk about the
[00:09:44] nervous system to get them feeling better. They still
[00:09:47] want to talk about their body. They don't just want me to
[00:09:49] say, Oh, it's your brain, don't worry. We don't need to
[00:09:52] talk about that thing. The surgeon said or the PT said
[00:09:54] or the chiropractor said like people people want to
[00:09:57] address that stuff directly. And sometimes they need to do
[00:10:00] that to remove those barriers. So there's a lot to talk
[00:10:04] about in that regard. But yeah, that resonates for you.
[00:10:07] It does. And I want to get there's a couple of different
[00:10:09] things I want to get to first and foremost, I just
[00:10:11] appreciate that approach of redressing both, right? I think
[00:10:15] at least okay, in my experience, first getting into this
[00:10:18] world. And this is also me. Surprise, surprise, I go in
[00:10:21] extremes. I learn one thing I go in one direction, I
[00:10:24] learn from the other. So in my beginning stages, I
[00:10:26] think I went from Oh, we don't talk about just the body
[00:10:29] at all. I totally ignore it. Right. And that I mean, it
[00:10:34] did help actually was kind of a bandaid for a while it did
[00:10:36] help I was working right with the emotions and in my
[00:10:38] brain and the fear response. But that's not the full
[00:10:42] picture. And it's very I mean, we have both right we are
[00:10:46] one. So how can we ignore one but I think some people
[00:10:49] get that a little bit mixed up in the beginning when
[00:10:51] they're learning this, it's like, Oh, it's not at all
[00:10:53] about the body. So I just I appreciate that approach of
[00:10:56] understanding. Okay, yes, we're working with both. But
[00:10:58] the intention behind it behind what we're doing is
[00:11:03] really important. So can you speak to that a little bit
[00:11:06] about what we might get wrong in terms of treating and
[00:11:09] especially with athletes, like, what do we get wrong
[00:11:11] about how pain originates in the body?
[00:11:14] What do I start there? So we want to acknowledge that
[00:11:16] like, no seception, which is information from the
[00:11:20] body, it's raw information, right? It's not pain
[00:11:23] until it reaches the brain, the brain decides that
[00:11:26] it's important decides that something's wrong. That
[00:11:29] information from the body is not insignificant. And we
[00:11:33] don't want to totally ignore that. If there's evidence
[00:11:36] that that's a factor, but that's only one of a lot
[00:11:38] of different bits of information that determine
[00:11:42] the brain's decision to create the experience of
[00:11:44] pain. So we're always trying to decide how much of
[00:11:47] this is no seceptive, how much of this is
[00:11:50] information from the tissues of your body and how
[00:11:52] much of this is other things. So I spend I spend a
[00:11:55] lot of time with my athlete clients in that gray
[00:11:57] area, because they are not ready to jump to this
[00:12:00] is all my brain nervous system and there's nothing
[00:12:02] wrong with my body, generally at first, even the
[00:12:06] idea that we could turn down the amplifier, right?
[00:12:09] Their brain is receiving what's otherwise normal
[00:12:12] information from the body. And it's misinterpreting
[00:12:15] it is dangerous, right? That idea really
[00:12:17] resonates for some people. Like, yes, of course,
[00:12:19] your brain's connected to your body. And it's, you
[00:12:21] know, it's processing stuff from your run that day
[00:12:24] or from your bike ride or from your weightlifting
[00:12:25] session. But it's basically learned to misinterpret
[00:12:28] that information is dangerous. And I think what's
[00:12:30] so interesting about this process, right, is with
[00:12:33] the emergence of modern pain science, we have
[00:12:35] shifted the focus from the body to the brain.
[00:12:39] And that's an important starting point to
[00:12:40] help people reduce fear about their body. But
[00:12:42] then you and I know that one of the best
[00:12:44] strategies then to get people better is not
[00:12:46] to stay up in the head. You can't think your
[00:12:48] way out of pain a lot of time. You need to go
[00:12:51] back into the body, ironically, with a different
[00:12:54] intention and a different mindset to attend to
[00:12:57] the somatic experience that's happening in the
[00:12:59] tissues. And this is why the body is so valuable.
[00:13:02] And this is why I still think there's a role
[00:13:03] for for manual therapy, body work and movement
[00:13:06] is because emotions by definition are a chemical
[00:13:11] expression in the body. Right? That's what
[00:13:14] they are. They are feelings are called
[00:13:15] feelings for a reason. They're expressed
[00:13:17] through our body. So doesn't it make sense for
[00:13:20] us to use the body as a way to access and to
[00:13:24] move those things, right, to create change in
[00:13:27] the brain and nervous system?
[00:13:29] Yeah, yeah, exactly. We I mean, we talk about
[00:13:32] how trauma and emotions and and experiences
[00:13:34] live in the body, right? So it makes sense.
[00:13:37] We would want to address it that way. But
[00:13:39] the difference is we're not fixing
[00:13:41] something physical necessarily, right? So can
[00:13:45] you give an example, maybe someone coming
[00:13:46] in with, you know, they have a scan on an X-ray
[00:13:50] or MRI, they're they hurt something in an
[00:13:53] accident or or I don't know, they pulled
[00:13:55] something, right? Or they have a
[00:13:57] disc bulge or something along those lines.
[00:13:58] Like, how do you explain the misinterpretation
[00:14:01] of danger when there's something real
[00:14:02] physically going on? So I have a client
[00:14:04] who had a fall skiing and her shoulder
[00:14:09] was bothering her rock climber. She went
[00:14:12] to get an MRI and her bicep tendon was
[00:14:15] fully torn released. Three or four
[00:14:18] four rotator cuff tendons were torn
[00:14:21] and retracted so they couldn't be operated
[00:14:23] on if you'd seen the number of surgeons.
[00:14:25] And when she saw that scan and saw how
[00:14:29] much change there was in her shoulder,
[00:14:31] she was really scared. She was upset
[00:14:34] naturally. But in this case, the surgeon
[00:14:37] did a great job and told her, you know,
[00:14:39] nothing architecturally has changed in
[00:14:42] your shoulder. None of these things
[00:14:43] are due to your fall. None of these
[00:14:45] things were due to this sort of benign
[00:14:48] crash that you had skiing. Yeah, it hurts
[00:14:50] because you fell on it. But these things
[00:14:52] were already there. And she'd been
[00:14:54] climbing at a really high level and
[00:14:55] skiing and working out and doing
[00:14:57] gym stuff before that. Right. And so
[00:15:00] we don't want to minimize and
[00:15:01] validate the fact that there are
[00:15:02] normal changes that happen in people's
[00:15:04] bodies, but often shocked by how much
[00:15:09] objective change we can see on scan
[00:15:11] and how poorly that correlates with
[00:15:13] someone's pain experience. Right. I mean,
[00:15:16] our conception of what's important on
[00:15:20] the MRI scan or an x-ray is completely
[00:15:22] changing in every joint in the body,
[00:15:25] whether it's arthritis, you know,
[00:15:27] these normal changes that happen with
[00:15:29] age, right. The way we think about
[00:15:30] that is totally changing, whether it's
[00:15:32] tears and things that we used to
[00:15:35] think were, you know, a red flag or
[00:15:37] needed surgery. Like all of this is
[00:15:39] being questioned, even when it comes
[00:15:41] to ACL tears. We used to think that
[00:15:44] if you had an ACL tear, you had to
[00:15:45] repair it right away. And now we're
[00:15:47] actually seeing them arrive at it
[00:15:48] instead in a pretty large subset of
[00:15:50] people, the ACL can heal itself in a
[00:15:53] period of time. If you navigate the
[00:15:55] rehab process well. Here at
[00:15:58] Richardson on Instagram is one
[00:16:00] clinician in Australia who's talking
[00:16:02] about this and the research on this.
[00:16:04] So it's like all the rules that we
[00:16:06] learned 20, 30 years ago in school
[00:16:08] are falling apart in front of our
[00:16:10] eyes, which I think is exciting, but
[00:16:12] it's very disorienting for people
[00:16:15] when they're coming out of the
[00:16:16] biomedical system with other
[00:16:18] doctors and PT's and chiropractors
[00:16:20] who weren't privy to that yet.
[00:16:22] Yeah, because it can feel unknown,
[00:16:24] right? It's a little more
[00:16:24] abstract. It doesn't feel as
[00:16:26] concrete of, okay, do these, do
[00:16:28] these steps physically and then
[00:16:29] you'll heal. But actually in
[00:16:30] reality, that doesn't always work
[00:16:32] like you're saying a large portion
[00:16:33] of your patients that wasn't working
[00:16:34] for. So it is exciting because
[00:16:36] there's something new that can
[00:16:37] change, probably make it change
[00:16:39] better. Yes, it's very
[00:16:41] exciting. There's a lot of
[00:16:42] opportunity. There's a lot of
[00:16:43] reason to be hopeful. And I
[00:16:45] see this every day, people
[00:16:46] coming in with their MRI scans.
[00:16:48] You know, I've looked at thousands
[00:16:49] of MRI scans of disc bulges and
[00:16:53] disc perniations and disc tears
[00:16:54] and reading the radiology
[00:16:55] report and seeing how poorly it
[00:16:57] matches with people's pain
[00:17:00] experience, right? The findings
[00:17:01] will be on the opposite side
[00:17:02] from where the symptoms are.
[00:17:04] Like that's weird, right? Or
[00:17:06] the findings are not at the
[00:17:07] same level where the
[00:17:07] symptoms are in the spine.
[00:17:09] And that's kind of weird. Or we
[00:17:10] have evidence that when
[00:17:11] someone has a tear or
[00:17:14] something in one shoulder, the
[00:17:15] painful shoulder and the MRI
[00:17:16] scan the other shoulder, 80% of
[00:17:18] the time they have the same
[00:17:19] tear in the other shoulder.
[00:17:21] It doesn't even hurt. I know
[00:17:22] you know all this, but I
[00:17:23] thought it was just helpful to
[00:17:24] share. Yeah, no, this is
[00:17:25] very helpful. So then, you
[00:17:28] know, as we were talking about
[00:17:28] before, maybe help us
[00:17:30] understand the reason behind
[00:17:31] that. Why would there be
[00:17:32] pain in some parts of the
[00:17:33] body other than the others
[00:17:35] when there's tears in both
[00:17:36] sides or a certain side where
[00:17:38] you don't have pain? What
[00:17:39] happens there?
[00:17:40] Yeah, well, I mean, pain is
[00:17:42] or symptoms, let's say, are
[00:17:44] the brain's opinion about
[00:17:45] whether you're in danger or
[00:17:47] whether you're safe. I mean,
[00:17:48] that's the correlation. It
[00:17:50] doesn't correlate with tissue
[00:17:51] injury. So once you have a
[00:17:54] sense that there's something
[00:17:56] wrong with that shoulder, it's
[00:17:58] going to hurt. Right. Let's
[00:18:00] say something happened or
[00:18:01] let's say you have some fear
[00:18:03] of cops off and old pain
[00:18:05] emerges kind of out of
[00:18:06] nowhere. And then you're
[00:18:08] scared of the pain. So the
[00:18:09] pain itself becomes its own
[00:18:11] source of fear. And then you
[00:18:13] take a picture and you see
[00:18:17] something that was always
[00:18:18] there most of the time, right?
[00:18:20] It's just a natural gradual
[00:18:22] change over time. Instantly,
[00:18:24] the clinician will make a
[00:18:25] connection, right? Need your
[00:18:27] react connection to the fact
[00:18:31] that those things must be
[00:18:32] correlated. They must be
[00:18:33] related when they're not.
[00:18:35] That's a problem. Because then
[00:18:36] it just makes the fear worse,
[00:18:37] doesn't it? Yes. And then it
[00:18:40] and then and then it hurts
[00:18:41] more. And then you're like,
[00:18:41] oh, that must be right. It
[00:18:44] must be what they saw on the
[00:18:45] MRI scan. This is really
[00:18:46] sticky. This is hard to
[00:18:47] shake for a lot of people.
[00:18:49] That's why there's this
[00:18:51] acronym vomit, which stands
[00:18:53] for victim of medical
[00:18:54] imaging technology, which
[00:18:56] basically means once you go
[00:18:57] get a scan and you see it,
[00:18:58] you can't unsee it. So
[00:19:02] I'm not sure I have very much
[00:19:03] so had that experience. It's
[00:19:05] hard. It's hard to get out of
[00:19:07] that. Even when you think you
[00:19:08] are, I've gone through and
[00:19:10] recognize and, you know, done
[00:19:12] the work. And but I think
[00:19:14] there was still on a
[00:19:15] subconscious level, this fear
[00:19:16] right associated because I
[00:19:17] know there's a tear there. I
[00:19:18] know there's something wrong
[00:19:20] technically, right? And in
[00:19:22] times of stress, I think
[00:19:23] our brain will just attach to
[00:19:24] that. Totally. And of course,
[00:19:26] you know, the fear of the
[00:19:27] pain itself is enough to keep
[00:19:29] pain strong and to keep pain
[00:19:31] going. But what most people
[00:19:33] don't recognize is that that's a
[00:19:34] distraction from something
[00:19:37] else, like the pain isn't the
[00:19:38] point. The pain is a
[00:19:40] distraction from something
[00:19:41] else in that person's life. And
[00:19:42] this is the message. And I'm
[00:19:43] always trying to get to help
[00:19:45] people understand you often
[00:19:46] need to reduce fear about the
[00:19:48] symptoms first to get to the
[00:19:50] other stuff. But ultimately,
[00:19:53] that's what we're trying to
[00:19:54] get is what's the, what's
[00:19:55] the meaning behind this? You
[00:19:57] know, what can we learn
[00:19:58] from this? Why is this an
[00:19:59] opportunity to to gain some
[00:20:01] insight? And this is where
[00:20:02] athletes get stuck a lot.
[00:20:03] Because, you know, naturally,
[00:20:04] an athlete is going to say,
[00:20:05] well, of course, it's my
[00:20:06] training. Of course, it's the
[00:20:07] volume. I've been training
[00:20:09] this marathon, I've been
[00:20:10] pushing myself really hard.
[00:20:11] Like that must be the reason
[00:20:13] it makes so much logical
[00:20:14] sense, just like the stuff on
[00:20:15] the MRI scan, it makes so much
[00:20:17] logical sense. It just doesn't
[00:20:19] tend to be true most of the
[00:20:20] time. Right. Unfortunately,
[00:20:24] phonia was that simple.
[00:20:25] So you've spoken about a
[00:20:26] few different times about,
[00:20:28] especially with athletes, our
[00:20:29] relationship to the activity or
[00:20:32] the sport that we're doing,
[00:20:33] that we're being active in and
[00:20:35] how it's actually really
[00:20:36] important to look at that when
[00:20:37] we are having pain or
[00:20:39] symptoms that aren't changing.
[00:20:40] Can you speak to that
[00:20:41] relationship a little bit?
[00:20:43] Yeah, sure. My friend, Cardin
[00:20:45] Raven, if you know, he and
[00:20:47] Jen Mann wrote the book
[00:20:48] Secret Language of the Body.
[00:20:49] Cardin shared this idea of
[00:20:51] sacred symptoms and
[00:20:52] stupid symptoms at one point
[00:20:55] with me. Stupid symptoms
[00:20:57] are the kind that the
[00:20:58] brain's just in a habit, a
[00:20:59] loop of just doing this.
[00:21:01] Maybe there's nothing to learn.
[00:21:02] No, maybe there's nothing to
[00:21:03] understand or sacred
[00:21:05] meaning there. There's nothing
[00:21:06] existential to be learned.
[00:21:08] Sacred symptoms are the
[00:21:08] opposite. They're like, you
[00:21:10] know, if you really
[00:21:10] investigate this, they're
[00:21:12] pointing us in a direction of
[00:21:15] understanding something about
[00:21:16] ourselves that we maybe
[00:21:17] won't recognize them before.
[00:21:19] And in the case of athletes,
[00:21:21] right, you might start into
[00:21:22] a sport and you really love
[00:21:23] it. But as five, 10 years
[00:21:25] go on, you start getting
[00:21:27] better at it. The fun starts
[00:21:29] to drain out. You're putting
[00:21:30] pressure on yourself. It's
[00:21:32] getting really competitive.
[00:21:33] Maybe you're just getting a
[00:21:34] little bored. Maybe it's just
[00:21:35] not quite as fun as it used
[00:21:36] to be. And you're never
[00:21:38] stopping to say, why am I
[00:21:40] doing this? Like, is this
[00:21:41] still what I want to be
[00:21:42] doing? You're never doing
[00:21:43] that inventory. I said, the
[00:21:45] brain will do it for you
[00:21:46] because, of course, pain is
[00:21:47] the best way to get an
[00:21:48] athlete's attention. It's
[00:21:50] probably not going to do some
[00:21:51] other symptom, right, like
[00:21:53] fatigue, although it could,
[00:21:55] probably not going to do an
[00:21:55] irritable bowel syndrome.
[00:21:56] It's probably not going to do
[00:21:58] something else. It's going to
[00:21:58] be pain. And it's going to be
[00:22:00] in a place that really
[00:22:02] affects your ability to
[00:22:03] recreate, right? It's really
[00:22:05] going to get your attention.
[00:22:06] If you're a runner, it's
[00:22:07] going to be plantar fasciitis.
[00:22:08] If you're a rock climber,
[00:22:09] it's going to be elbow pain.
[00:22:11] If you play an instrument,
[00:22:12] it's going to be something
[00:22:13] that affects your ability to
[00:22:14] play that instrument, right?
[00:22:16] So I always ask the
[00:22:18] question, like, why this
[00:22:19] symptom? Why does this
[00:22:20] symptom make sense? But
[00:22:21] that's sort of getting away
[00:22:23] from the idea that when
[00:22:24] symptoms are sacred,
[00:22:26] they're trying to help us
[00:22:29] tune in to whether
[00:22:31] we're still doing our sport for
[00:22:33] the right reason.
[00:22:34] You know, people even go 20
[00:22:35] years doing a sport
[00:22:37] to try to prove something to
[00:22:39] a parent or to try to
[00:22:41] bolster their self-esteem,
[00:22:42] right, or to try to prove
[00:22:43] their worth or
[00:22:45] to feed their ego, right?
[00:22:47] They can be doing it for all
[00:22:48] these encumbered reasons and
[00:22:49] get away with it for a long
[00:22:50] time. And at some point,
[00:22:52] their brain says, it's enough.
[00:22:54] I don't want to do it.
[00:22:55] I don't want to do that anymore.
[00:22:56] Right? I need to change.
[00:22:57] It doesn't mean that the sport
[00:22:59] has to change. It doesn't mean
[00:23:00] that you need to stop doing
[00:23:01] that thing. But you need to be
[00:23:03] taken on as the inventory of
[00:23:05] why you're doing it and maybe
[00:23:07] shift your why.
[00:23:09] Even if you don't change the
[00:23:09] what, you have to shift your
[00:23:11] why or your intention to
[00:23:12] something more like a line with
[00:23:14] your values and something a
[00:23:15] little less, I don't know
[00:23:17] what's the word, little less
[00:23:18] encumbered.
[00:23:19] Yeah, I can share that that
[00:23:21] was a really important
[00:23:22] pitiful moment, especially
[00:23:24] along years of in this work,
[00:23:26] but especially as I moved to
[00:23:29] Boulder. And like you said, it's
[00:23:30] a very competitive, very active
[00:23:32] place. And I got soft up. I
[00:23:33] didn't realize how much I was
[00:23:35] so focused on the what I was
[00:23:37] doing and how I was doing it
[00:23:39] and how I wanted to be involved
[00:23:40] and doing two different
[00:23:41] activities a day. And it was
[00:23:43] exciting. And I was meeting
[00:23:44] people and, you know, all
[00:23:46] the things, but my body, my
[00:23:48] body was talking to me big
[00:23:50] time. But I didn't
[00:23:51] understand because I was
[00:23:51] having fun or thought I was
[00:23:53] having fun. And yes, there was
[00:23:54] part of that. I was.
[00:23:57] But it was also the way
[00:23:59] I was approaching it.
[00:24:01] I felt like I needed to keep
[00:24:02] up with certain people
[00:24:04] or do it in a certain way
[00:24:07] or certain amount of times a
[00:24:07] week. Harrison, judging
[00:24:09] yourself, comparing to others
[00:24:11] and and it happens fast
[00:24:14] and quickly and subtly.
[00:24:15] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:17] Thanks for sharing that.
[00:24:18] That's a that's a really
[00:24:20] great example of the way this
[00:24:21] plays out for me.
[00:24:23] When I was racing my bike,
[00:24:24] same as you, I was loving it
[00:24:26] at first, even though it wasn't
[00:24:28] my intention wasn't always
[00:24:29] pure. I was having a great
[00:24:30] time and I was getting better
[00:24:31] and I was learning skills
[00:24:33] and the gear was fun and
[00:24:35] right. There was like more of
[00:24:36] that and there wasn't the
[00:24:37] other stuff. But as time went
[00:24:39] on and I started taking a
[00:24:41] little bit too seriously, I
[00:24:42] didn't notice that the fun
[00:24:43] brained out for me. And I
[00:24:45] sort of, you know, I
[00:24:47] started to recognize that I
[00:24:48] was putting pressure on
[00:24:49] myself and my self talk was
[00:24:50] negative and I was judging
[00:24:51] myself if I didn't do well
[00:24:53] after a race. Unlike when I
[00:24:55] first started where I was I
[00:24:56] was pretty good at it. And as
[00:24:58] at a beginner level, you
[00:24:59] know, you're having a lot of
[00:25:00] success. It's hard to hard to
[00:25:02] not enjoy that. So yeah,
[00:25:05] that was a really that was
[00:25:06] real reckoning for me. And
[00:25:08] there was a little bit of
[00:25:08] grief and anger and
[00:25:11] shame and sadness that I
[00:25:14] had to work through. I had
[00:25:15] to almost put that thing
[00:25:16] away for a little while and
[00:25:17] work through that and then
[00:25:19] come back and rediscover it
[00:25:21] with a new perspective on my
[00:25:22] own terms.
[00:25:23] Yeah, I like the idea that
[00:25:24] we're just shifting how we're
[00:25:26] doing it not necessarily or
[00:25:27] sometimes maybe it's the
[00:25:28] what but right it's just
[00:25:30] shifting how not
[00:25:31] necessarily what it is
[00:25:32] because there can still be
[00:25:33] you have a connection to
[00:25:34] it some way shape or form
[00:25:36] you got into it for a
[00:25:36] reason you're having fun
[00:25:37] you're enjoying. But yeah,
[00:25:39] I can it can change. And so
[00:25:42] when our bodies are talking
[00:25:43] to us and we have pain
[00:25:44] that's coming up in maybe
[00:25:46] a certain sport or just in
[00:25:47] general. What do you think
[00:25:50] athletes get wrong a lot of
[00:25:51] the times in terms of how
[00:25:53] they work with it or shift
[00:25:54] it or manage it like from
[00:25:57] the mind body perspective
[00:25:59] and especially with emotions.
[00:26:00] What do you see coming
[00:26:01] athletes.
[00:26:02] Yeah, I mean mostly they
[00:26:03] either stop or they're
[00:26:04] told to stop right the
[00:26:06] assumption that they're
[00:26:07] doing too much of that thing.
[00:26:08] And sometimes that's true.
[00:26:10] Sometimes they're doing too
[00:26:11] much of that thing because
[00:26:12] of this encumbered
[00:26:12] intention that we talked
[00:26:13] about. It's not
[00:26:14] necessarily the volume of
[00:26:16] activity. Because we know
[00:26:18] that, you know, living in
[00:26:19] Boulder, you see an
[00:26:20] alter endurance athletes
[00:26:22] all the time. They're doing
[00:26:23] incredible things like our
[00:26:24] physical body is almost
[00:26:25] never the governor. When
[00:26:26] you look at how how much
[00:26:28] capacity we have for
[00:26:29] movement and exercise, we're
[00:26:30] built to do this. But the
[00:26:32] first thing athletes do is
[00:26:33] they assume that it's too
[00:26:34] much. They're over doing
[00:26:36] it, their body can handle
[00:26:37] it. It's breaking down.
[00:26:39] Right. And nine plus times
[00:26:41] out of 10. That's not
[00:26:42] true at all. There's
[00:26:44] something else. The brain
[00:26:45] and nervous system are the
[00:26:46] governor and there's
[00:26:47] something else that's
[00:26:49] capping or limiting their
[00:26:50] capacity. So the first thing
[00:26:52] they do is they start
[00:26:53] exercising less or they take
[00:26:55] the thing away. Thinking
[00:26:56] that rest is going to help
[00:26:57] and generally that makes
[00:26:58] them worse because they
[00:26:59] lose their coping strategy.
[00:27:01] Let's say there's some
[00:27:02] anxiety and that's their
[00:27:03] like coping strategy to
[00:27:04] manage stress. That goes
[00:27:06] away. Then they're scared
[00:27:07] they're not going to be
[00:27:07] able to do it again.
[00:27:08] That's poking at their
[00:27:09] identity. Right. That just
[00:27:11] is an amplifier for
[00:27:12] symptoms. And so people
[00:27:13] find that they get worse.
[00:27:15] They're told that they need
[00:27:16] to be stronger. They need to
[00:27:18] be more flexible. Right. This
[00:27:19] is the default. You need to
[00:27:21] get stronger. You're in
[00:27:22] pain. You're not strong
[00:27:23] enough. Like look around in
[00:27:24] this town. Like these are
[00:27:25] the strongest people in the
[00:27:26] world. If strength
[00:27:28] predicted pain, nobody in
[00:27:30] Boulder would have pain.
[00:27:31] You know. Yeah. Oh the
[00:27:32] amount of times I've been
[00:27:33] told that because I'm
[00:27:34] hypermobile. Right. I've
[00:27:35] told. Yeah. So many times.
[00:27:37] Yeah. Doesn't correlate
[00:27:38] with that either. Right.
[00:27:39] Just means you're really
[00:27:40] just means you're good at
[00:27:41] things that involve more
[00:27:42] flexibility than I am. I'm
[00:27:44] not not very good at those
[00:27:45] things. Yeah. So so that
[00:27:47] that's kind of the first
[00:27:48] mistake. You know. And of
[00:27:49] course, when you go see a
[00:27:49] physical therapist, the first
[00:27:51] thing they do, this has
[00:27:52] become the standard of care
[00:27:54] in my profession.
[00:27:56] I'm going to be started is
[00:27:57] they the PT will prescribe
[00:27:59] exercises and sit there and
[00:28:01] type on their computer to
[00:28:02] document say, you know,
[00:28:03] while the person is doing
[00:28:04] exercises and that somehow has
[00:28:06] become the new standard of
[00:28:07] this is how we treat
[00:28:08] pain. And it's completely
[00:28:09] ineffective. It doesn't
[00:28:11] work at all because we're
[00:28:12] focusing on the wrong thing.
[00:28:14] But this is the message that
[00:28:15] athletes get time and time
[00:28:16] again, there must be an
[00:28:17] imbalance. There must be an
[00:28:18] asymmetry. Right. I'm pushing
[00:28:20] myself so hard that these
[00:28:22] little biomechanical nuances
[00:28:23] must matter. And then we
[00:28:25] start when that doesn't
[00:28:26] work, we start making up
[00:28:27] stories about well, maybe
[00:28:28] it's your so as and maybe
[00:28:29] your foot hurts because
[00:28:30] this thing in some totally
[00:28:32] different part of your body.
[00:28:33] Right. There's this like
[00:28:35] boogeyman phenomenon or
[00:28:36] suddenly these other
[00:28:38] variables. Right. Maybe
[00:28:40] that's why maybe we
[00:28:41] should like think about it
[00:28:42] differently and treat
[00:28:43] something over here so
[00:28:44] that we improve movement
[00:28:45] over there. Right. There are
[00:28:46] all these ways of trying to
[00:28:48] treat things biomechanically
[00:28:49] that were really created in
[00:28:51] response to the fact that
[00:28:52] we're treating the wrong
[00:28:53] thing. And so if we make it
[00:28:55] more complicated and we
[00:28:56] change the story and we
[00:28:57] change the conceptualization
[00:28:59] of why we're treating it,
[00:29:01] maybe this athlete will
[00:29:02] believe it and believe
[00:29:03] predicts outcome. Right. So
[00:29:05] if doing FRC or doing, you
[00:29:08] know, some corrective
[00:29:10] movement program, the
[00:29:11] athlete believes that's
[00:29:12] going to help and it reduces
[00:29:13] fear, it probably will.
[00:29:15] There's this very strong
[00:29:16] placebo effect with these
[00:29:18] traditionally bio biomedical
[00:29:20] interventions that we use,
[00:29:21] which is why I could get a
[00:29:22] lot of people well before I
[00:29:23] even started doing this.
[00:29:25] But the problem is at some
[00:29:26] point that phase when they
[00:29:28] haven't really gotten to the
[00:29:30] core of why, right, why
[00:29:32] they're hurting, then that
[00:29:34] thing's going to stop
[00:29:35] working and then they're
[00:29:36] going to get frustrated
[00:29:37] again. And then they're
[00:29:38] going to be looking at the
[00:29:40] next thing in line and the
[00:29:41] next thing in line and the
[00:29:43] next thing in line. And
[00:29:44] suddenly there are 10
[00:29:46] things deep. They're still
[00:29:47] not better. Right. They've
[00:29:49] accumulated a bunch of other
[00:29:50] symptoms in the meantime.
[00:29:52] They're doing less. They're
[00:29:54] even more frustrated. Right.
[00:29:56] The fear just grows and
[00:29:57] grows and grows. And so this
[00:29:58] is when I meet people like
[00:29:59] this is when people hear
[00:30:01] from a friend or something
[00:30:02] that there's another way to
[00:30:03] think about it. And this is
[00:30:05] when I intervene,
[00:30:05] unfortunately, it ends up
[00:30:07] being pretty late in
[00:30:08] process.
[00:30:10] Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's
[00:30:12] usually where I meet people as
[00:30:13] well, just in a different
[00:30:14] capacity. Well, not so
[00:30:16] different. Yeah, I can, I can
[00:30:19] jump on that bandwagon for
[00:30:20] just a second because yes,
[00:30:21] you're right. Sometimes there
[00:30:22] can be a little bit of a
[00:30:23] band-aid effect with PT. But
[00:30:24] honestly, I hear more time and
[00:30:27] time again, and maybe it's
[00:30:27] just the world that I'm in
[00:30:28] that it's actually just not
[00:30:30] effective, but they don't know
[00:30:31] what else to do. I mean, I
[00:30:32] was in that boat. I didn't
[00:30:33] know what else to do. So I
[00:30:34] just keep going because I'm
[00:30:35] told that well, I'm not
[00:30:36] doing enough, right? I'm not
[00:30:37] as consistent as maybe I
[00:30:38] should be with you.
[00:30:38] Yeah, it's your fault. You're
[00:30:39] not doing, you're not doing
[00:30:41] the exercises perfectly
[00:30:42] enough or you're not. Exactly.
[00:30:43] Yeah, it falls back on you.
[00:30:45] Or I didn't have someone that
[00:30:47] helped me that knew my
[00:30:48] hypermobile body enough. So
[00:30:50] it wasn't actually as
[00:30:50] effective. It was making
[00:30:51] things worse. And there's
[00:30:53] all a lot of wrapped up in
[00:30:54] hypermobility. So I do
[00:30:56] think there's a lot that
[00:30:57] people, I mean, we're
[00:30:58] missing so much in that
[00:31:00] world and people get really
[00:31:02] stuck there because they're
[00:31:03] trying all the things, but
[00:31:04] nothing's working. And then
[00:31:05] that we get into that
[00:31:06] perfectionist cycle and
[00:31:07] then shame and guilt and
[00:31:08] like you said, our coping
[00:31:09] mechims go away because we
[00:31:10] can't move in the way that we
[00:31:11] enjoy. And I think you
[00:31:13] mentioned that that sense of
[00:31:14] identity, right, really
[00:31:15] shifts because with athletes
[00:31:17] there's a really strong
[00:31:18] sense of identity in what
[00:31:19] we're doing. Can you speak a
[00:31:21] little bit more to that? Like
[00:31:22] what you see when, when
[00:31:23] that's taken away with pain?
[00:31:26] The identity piece. Yeah.
[00:31:27] Yeah, I mean, one of the
[00:31:28] things that I think is
[00:31:29] really interesting is the
[00:31:31] notion that when physical
[00:31:34] pain goes up, emotions tend
[00:31:36] to drop. So they kind of do
[00:31:39] this, which is why when
[00:31:41] we're treating this and
[00:31:42] we're trying to get people
[00:31:43] to connect with their
[00:31:43] emotions and they can do
[00:31:45] that and they can express
[00:31:46] them fully and release
[00:31:47] them. Physical pain comes
[00:31:49] down, right? So athletes
[00:31:52] get into this habit of
[00:31:53] using this type of physical
[00:31:56] pain that we choose going
[00:31:57] out for a hard run, going
[00:31:58] out on the bike, suffering.
[00:32:00] It's still pain. It's just
[00:32:01] the type of pain we're
[00:32:02] choosing. So it's, it's
[00:32:04] better tolerated. It's
[00:32:05] socially normalized. We're
[00:32:06] rewarded for it, right? Everyone
[00:32:08] thinks we're great because
[00:32:09] we're really good at
[00:32:09] suffering. That, that becomes
[00:32:11] a really great way to manage
[00:32:12] our anxiety and manage our
[00:32:13] emotions. Once, once we
[00:32:15] lose that, right? We lose
[00:32:17] that, that coping strategy.
[00:32:19] It could be alcohol, it
[00:32:21] could be television, it
[00:32:22] could be food, right? You
[00:32:24] could argue that exercise
[00:32:25] and sports is a more, is
[00:32:27] a more healthy coaching
[00:32:28] strategy than those other
[00:32:29] things. But as soon as we
[00:32:30] lose that, right, our whole
[00:32:31] world sort of starts to
[00:32:33] crumble. A lot of people
[00:32:34] find that they lose
[00:32:35] friendships. And the people
[00:32:36] that they thought were
[00:32:37] their friends in their
[00:32:38] sporting life don't show up
[00:32:39] for them anymore. That can
[00:32:40] be really sad, right? They
[00:32:42] don't have access to their
[00:32:44] community. So they're, they
[00:32:45] get lonely. That becomes an
[00:32:46] amplifier for symptoms.
[00:32:48] There's fear that they'll
[00:32:49] never be able to do that
[00:32:50] thing again. Right? Who am
[00:32:52] I without that thing? What
[00:32:53] else do I have in my life?
[00:32:55] What else do I have going
[00:32:56] on in my life if it's not
[00:32:57] rock climbing or lifting
[00:32:59] weights or whatever? And you
[00:33:02] can see why this kind of
[00:33:03] becomes a vicious cycle. You
[00:33:04] can see why this people's
[00:33:05] worlds just get really
[00:33:06] small when they lose that.
[00:33:08] And it is an invitation. If
[00:33:11] you look at it this way to
[00:33:12] say, maybe I need to add up
[00:33:14] maybe I need to have other
[00:33:14] things in my life besides
[00:33:16] the sport. Like, you know,
[00:33:17] we live in Boulder where
[00:33:18] there are a lot of really
[00:33:19] true professional athletes
[00:33:20] that are doing this for a
[00:33:21] living, right? I was never
[00:33:23] doing it for a living, but
[00:33:24] I sometimes trained like I
[00:33:25] was, I sometimes treated it
[00:33:27] as though it was that
[00:33:28] important to me, you know,
[00:33:30] and as a dad and a
[00:33:32] clinician, I was just an
[00:33:34] amateur athlete, like I
[00:33:35] needed to have more things
[00:33:37] going on in my life than
[00:33:38] just that. So sometimes
[00:33:40] pain is your brain saying,
[00:33:40] look, I'm going to take this
[00:33:41] away and we're going to see
[00:33:43] what you do. What are you
[00:33:45] going to do with it? Are
[00:33:46] you going to use this as
[00:33:47] an opportunity to create
[00:33:48] some change in your life? Or
[00:33:50] are you going to kind of
[00:33:50] like, you know, go
[00:33:52] towards going to fear and
[00:33:54] the world gets very small.
[00:33:56] So there's a lot to say
[00:33:57] in that regard. I mean, our
[00:33:58] identity as an athlete is
[00:33:59] not an important. I
[00:34:01] believe that being a mover
[00:34:03] in your life is a
[00:34:06] human right. I think we're
[00:34:08] built for this. I think if
[00:34:09] we want it, we should have
[00:34:11] the agency to go and be able
[00:34:12] to do it. So I'll never
[00:34:14] argue that it's not
[00:34:16] important. Again, it just
[00:34:17] comes back to what's your
[00:34:18] intention around it? And
[00:34:20] what role does it fill
[00:34:21] in your life? Is it
[00:34:22] filling a healthy role or is
[00:34:24] it filling in some
[00:34:26] dysfunctional way? I say
[00:34:28] usually that sometimes
[00:34:29] going through this work is
[00:34:30] I see as one of the biggest
[00:34:31] transformations in your life.
[00:34:33] Such so much learning. You
[00:34:35] kind of break down what you
[00:34:37] think you know, right, and
[00:34:38] really get in touch with
[00:34:40] what's important to you, what
[00:34:41] is truth, what maybe some
[00:34:43] of these coping mechanisms
[00:34:45] are are unhealthy, haven't
[00:34:47] been working for you, makes
[00:34:49] you really look at
[00:34:50] everything, which I think
[00:34:50] is what you're speaking to.
[00:34:52] Definitely. Yeah. And I want
[00:34:53] to acknowledge that we're
[00:34:54] getting a little negative
[00:34:55] here right on athletes and
[00:34:56] sports like there are so
[00:34:57] many beautiful, right,
[00:35:00] honorable reasons to be an
[00:35:02] athlete and to go race and
[00:35:03] to compete and to push
[00:35:05] yourself. I don't want to
[00:35:06] minimize that at all. It's
[00:35:07] just a fine line. And my
[00:35:08] experiences when pain shows
[00:35:09] up, it's a barometer that
[00:35:12] something's gotten a little
[00:35:13] out of balance. Something
[00:35:14] needs something needs
[00:35:15] tweaking. Yeah, well, and
[00:35:17] I'll follow that up to with
[00:35:18] that kind of to what we
[00:35:19] mentioned before is when
[00:35:21] you can look at your
[00:35:22] relationship with it and
[00:35:24] maybe realize, oh, I've
[00:35:25] gotten into a place where
[00:35:26] I don't fully enjoy it
[00:35:27] anymore. But then you
[00:35:28] start to look at, okay, what
[00:35:31] could I do to bring joy to
[00:35:32] it again? Or bring what kind
[00:35:34] of different attention can I
[00:35:35] bring to it actually allows
[00:35:37] you to enjoy even more and
[00:35:38] it becomes probably even a
[00:35:39] different type of
[00:35:40] importance in your life,
[00:35:41] right? Because yeah, I mean,
[00:35:42] movement in our bodies is
[00:35:43] medicine. It's always been
[00:35:44] incredibly important to me as
[00:35:45] well. So it's yeah, I
[00:35:47] agree. So what's so what's
[00:35:48] an example of something that
[00:35:50] changed for you in your
[00:35:51] life after you moved to
[00:35:52] Boulder and you had this
[00:35:53] realization, what did you
[00:35:54] tweak? So I had been
[00:35:56] climbing on and off before
[00:35:58] moving to Boulder, but
[00:35:59] just yeah, not as intensely as
[00:36:02] then I picked it up when I
[00:36:03] came here. But it was really
[00:36:04] awesome. I mean, climbing
[00:36:06] Mecca right of outside and
[00:36:08] hadn't been climbing outside
[00:36:09] like that before. So it's
[00:36:10] having a lot of fun but
[00:36:11] recognized I also started
[00:36:13] picking up biking, which at
[00:36:15] a very minimal pace, I had
[00:36:17] done some road biking
[00:36:18] before, but I started
[00:36:18] picking up gravel biking and
[00:36:20] it felt kind of like, like
[00:36:21] I mentioned, I needed to
[00:36:22] be on it and increasing my
[00:36:25] intensity with it and the
[00:36:26] amount of times I was
[00:36:27] climbing and what I was
[00:36:29] climbing and then also with
[00:36:30] biking, how long was I
[00:36:31] going and all the things
[00:36:32] and my body gets really
[00:36:33] rigid and tight around it,
[00:36:34] right? I get really
[00:36:35] controlled. And so for me,
[00:36:37] my shoulder and my neck
[00:36:38] started really talking to
[00:36:38] me very, very strongly to
[00:36:40] where I'd go for a
[00:36:41] bike ride and be in so
[00:36:42] much pain. And so I
[00:36:45] recognized well, first,
[00:36:46] I really didn't see it
[00:36:47] because I thought, I love
[00:36:48] Colorado. I moved here for
[00:36:49] a reason. This is why
[00:36:50] I moved. It's amazing,
[00:36:51] right? I'm outside all the
[00:36:52] time. Like I was like,
[00:36:53] what's wrong? I actually
[00:36:54] got really frustrated. I
[00:36:55] was like, I don't
[00:36:56] understand. I'm having so
[00:36:58] much fun. Why am I in
[00:36:59] pain? Because I know the
[00:37:01] connections. Those things
[00:37:02] are also true. I mean, it's
[00:37:03] not those things weren't
[00:37:04] true, right? We can have
[00:37:06] dual truths. Exactly,
[00:37:07] exactly. Yeah, both true.
[00:37:10] But after talking to you,
[00:37:11] I had to really look at
[00:37:12] okay, wasn't necessarily
[00:37:14] just the sport to there
[00:37:15] were other personal
[00:37:15] things going on in my
[00:37:16] life. But they had kind
[00:37:18] of like moved into this
[00:37:20] focus of the sports that
[00:37:22] I was doing. I think it
[00:37:23] put a lot of importance
[00:37:24] on there without looking
[00:37:26] a lot at a little bit about
[00:37:28] what else was going on and
[00:37:29] just giving myself
[00:37:29] acknowledgement and
[00:37:30] validation of what I'd been
[00:37:31] going through. And so for
[00:37:33] me, I took a step back
[00:37:35] from climbing specifically
[00:37:37] and then it became
[00:37:38] winter and I stopped
[00:37:39] biking. And I just let
[00:37:40] myself be like, well, when
[00:37:41] I want to go back, I'll
[00:37:42] go back. And it's been
[00:37:43] about six months. And in
[00:37:44] the past month, I've been
[00:37:46] thinking about climbing
[00:37:47] more and feeling the urge
[00:37:48] to go back and being
[00:37:49] really excited about it.
[00:37:50] So I'm going to start
[00:37:50] again, just allowing
[00:37:51] myself that break was
[00:37:53] actually really powerful
[00:37:54] even though there's a
[00:37:54] little hesitation of like,
[00:37:55] oh, man, I feel like I'm
[00:37:56] starting over again, right?
[00:37:58] But it's not that strong
[00:38:01] of a hindrance, I guess
[00:38:02] I'll say, and I'm just
[00:38:03] approaching it from a place
[00:38:04] of fun.
[00:38:05] I think it'll be pleasantly
[00:38:05] surprised that when you
[00:38:06] go back, you're definitely
[00:38:08] not starting over again.
[00:38:09] I think that's another
[00:38:10] myth that athletes worry
[00:38:11] about. Like they're going
[00:38:12] to lose all of their
[00:38:13] fitness. And what you
[00:38:14] realize is if you've been
[00:38:16] doing anything for a while,
[00:38:17] I use this term training
[00:38:19] age. The older your
[00:38:20] training age, the more
[00:38:21] experience you have, the
[00:38:22] more you have that skill,
[00:38:24] you have that ability, right?
[00:38:26] You're not dropping down to
[00:38:27] zero, you're dropping down
[00:38:28] maybe to 90% or 80%.
[00:38:31] But you don't recognize
[00:38:32] that until later.
[00:38:33] And a lot of athletes,
[00:38:34] especially here, don't
[00:38:35] really give themselves
[00:38:36] permission to have an
[00:38:37] offseason. And so they just
[00:38:39] burn out because it's
[00:38:40] too much of a good thing,
[00:38:41] you know. And if you
[00:38:43] give yourself a chunk
[00:38:44] to take off, to put
[00:38:45] that thing away entirely
[00:38:47] or shift to something else,
[00:38:50] the fire grows back
[00:38:51] again. And then next
[00:38:52] season, you're like, all
[00:38:53] right, I can't wait to do
[00:38:55] this again, I'm ready to go.
[00:38:57] So I'm often encouraging
[00:38:58] people to take an offseason,
[00:39:01] to mix it up, to build
[00:39:02] variety into their movement
[00:39:03] practice, because
[00:39:06] cycling will help your
[00:39:07] climbing, and climbing
[00:39:07] will help your cycling,
[00:39:08] and climb tennis will
[00:39:09] help your, you know, whatever
[00:39:11] other sports you're into.
[00:39:12] Like there's all this
[00:39:14] overlap between sports,
[00:39:15] which is why I really value
[00:39:17] having a lot of variety
[00:39:18] in my movement practice.
[00:39:19] I see how they all
[00:39:20] benefit each other.
[00:39:21] Yeah, I appreciate that too
[00:39:23] because what I recognize
[00:39:24] moving here as well is
[00:39:25] that I came from Texas
[00:39:27] and there's not a lot of
[00:39:28] seasons there as much.
[00:39:30] There's just hot and not hot.
[00:39:31] And so I didn't have
[00:39:33] many seasons within what
[00:39:34] I was doing, because you
[00:39:36] could pretty much do most
[00:39:37] unless, you know, I didn't
[00:39:38] bike on crazy hundred
[00:39:39] degree days, but I never
[00:39:41] really had that sense
[00:39:42] of seasons until here.
[00:39:44] And actually, yes, you can
[00:39:45] still continue throughout
[00:39:46] the year, for sure.
[00:39:47] You could make it happen.
[00:39:49] But it kind of just
[00:39:50] allowed me to do that
[00:39:51] as well, like, oh,
[00:39:51] it's winter. I don't
[00:39:52] I'm good. You know, I'm going
[00:39:53] to do something different,
[00:39:55] you know, inside.
[00:39:56] So, yeah, it's been
[00:39:58] interesting and a good thing.
[00:40:00] And not everybody has to do
[00:40:01] that. But if you're pushing
[00:40:02] yourself really hard at a
[00:40:03] certain juncture of the season,
[00:40:04] it makes sense to take that
[00:40:05] down a notch.
[00:40:06] You know, I did another
[00:40:07] time in the season, let
[00:40:08] yourself recover and to
[00:40:10] Google it for me.
[00:40:11] When I for me, when I was,
[00:40:13] you know, doing this sort
[00:40:14] of at the peak of when I
[00:40:16] was racing and training and
[00:40:17] pushing myself really hard,
[00:40:19] it was really definitely about
[00:40:20] like, I need to do this.
[00:40:21] If I don't do this,
[00:40:23] bad things are going to happen.
[00:40:25] I'm going to gain weight or
[00:40:26] I'm not going to be enough
[00:40:27] or I'm not going to be that
[00:40:29] I'm not going to have that
[00:40:30] identity of this really strong
[00:40:31] person.
[00:40:32] You know, there were all kinds
[00:40:33] of encumbered reasons that I
[00:40:35] was doing it.
[00:40:36] And on the other side of that,
[00:40:38] now I really reflect and I
[00:40:39] say, why, why do I like
[00:40:41] to go out and do these
[00:40:42] things, even sometimes push
[00:40:43] myself really hard?
[00:40:44] Why do I like to go to the
[00:40:45] track? Why do I like to,
[00:40:47] you know, and it's because
[00:40:48] because it feels good to do
[00:40:50] hard things sometimes?
[00:40:52] You know, you feel a sense of
[00:40:54] accomplishment, right?
[00:40:55] There's a hit of dopamine.
[00:40:57] I like that part of it, but I
[00:40:58] also go out to do it because
[00:41:00] I like to run because I have
[00:41:01] great ideas when I run.
[00:41:03] I stop and I write them down
[00:41:04] on my phone.
[00:41:05] Like, that's one of my
[00:41:06] motivations for going to run.
[00:41:08] I don't feel like I have to
[00:41:09] anymore.
[00:41:09] I want to some days.
[00:41:11] And the other days I check
[00:41:12] in with myself and I say,
[00:41:13] what do I want to do today?
[00:41:14] Do I want to go run?
[00:41:15] No, not really.
[00:41:16] I've learned as an athlete
[00:41:18] to just tune into my
[00:41:19] intuition.
[00:41:20] And as I've done that, it's
[00:41:22] helped me to guide
[00:41:24] my movement practice in a
[00:41:25] healthier direction.
[00:41:26] Yeah, we talk a lot about
[00:41:28] that.
[00:41:29] My first specialty is that
[00:41:30] therapists with eating
[00:41:31] disorders and movement.
[00:41:33] And we talk a lot about that
[00:41:34] there as well.
[00:41:35] And so this is a very common
[00:41:36] conversation we have of why
[00:41:38] are you moving your body,
[00:41:40] right?
[00:41:40] Versus then getting more
[00:41:42] in touch with your intuition
[00:41:43] and learning how to to flow
[00:41:45] and have that in and out of
[00:41:47] what do I want to do?
[00:41:48] So yeah, I definitely appreciate
[00:41:49] that as well.
[00:41:50] Totally. And I think, you know,
[00:41:51] I shared that article with you
[00:41:52] that I wrote, which is kind of
[00:41:54] like a kind of an intense
[00:41:55] article, right, about how pain
[00:41:56] plays out in athletes.
[00:41:57] It's almost like a worst case
[00:41:58] scenario to make a point.
[00:42:01] But the reality is that a lot
[00:42:03] of young people at a very
[00:42:05] young age become athletes
[00:42:07] as a coping strategy.
[00:42:09] They become athletes because
[00:42:10] they don't have a lot of
[00:42:11] emotional skills, right?
[00:42:12] They don't have a lot of
[00:42:13] emotional awareness or
[00:42:14] emotional intelligence.
[00:42:16] And so they displace it
[00:42:17] into this thing where they get
[00:42:18] a lot of recognition, reward
[00:42:20] and satisfaction.
[00:42:21] And it ends up kind of
[00:42:22] being a setup because, you know,
[00:42:25] you can be very successful
[00:42:26] and make a lot of money,
[00:42:27] get a lot of reward
[00:42:29] for being really good at
[00:42:30] something.
[00:42:31] But if your intention isn't
[00:42:33] somewhat more pure, right?
[00:42:36] I have a friend that says,
[00:42:38] if you're using exercise
[00:42:38] to burn off emotions, it's
[00:42:40] like diesel, right?
[00:42:41] It's really effective,
[00:42:41] but it burns kind of dirty.
[00:42:44] And so one of the things
[00:42:46] I always try to do with
[00:42:47] athletes is to recognize that
[00:42:49] what we want to try to do is
[00:42:51] balance out the need for
[00:42:53] physical sensation
[00:42:55] with emotional sensation.
[00:42:57] So one doesn't start to
[00:42:58] negatively affect the other.
[00:43:00] Does that make sense?
[00:43:01] Yeah, it definitely does.
[00:43:02] Is there an example you can
[00:43:03] give with that about how we
[00:43:04] would balance out the physical
[00:43:05] with the emotional,
[00:43:06] especially when someone
[00:43:07] like an athlete is
[00:43:09] or someone listening to this
[00:43:10] who's just coming to this
[00:43:11] work of like, OK,
[00:43:12] I'm grasping this idea,
[00:43:13] but what does that
[00:43:14] actually mean?
[00:43:15] Yeah, it's a little
[00:43:16] abstract, isn't it?
[00:43:18] So let's say a kid
[00:43:20] at a pretty young age
[00:43:22] has had a lot of hard
[00:43:23] experiences in their lives.
[00:43:26] Right?
[00:43:26] Let's say they've grown up.
[00:43:27] But it doesn't have to be
[00:43:28] a traumatic life experience.
[00:43:30] But let's say there's a lot
[00:43:31] of stress growing up.
[00:43:33] And let's say their parents
[00:43:34] weren't super supportive
[00:43:36] with their emotions, right?
[00:43:38] They weren't tuning in to
[00:43:39] that kid emotionally.
[00:43:41] So the kid never had that
[00:43:42] modeled and they don't
[00:43:45] have those skills, right?
[00:43:47] They don't know what to do with it.
[00:43:48] But about that same time,
[00:43:49] they're introduced to sports
[00:43:51] where the sort of physical
[00:43:53] expression of these big feelings
[00:43:55] that they have are highly
[00:43:57] normalized, right?
[00:43:58] They get into football
[00:43:59] where like anger is OK
[00:44:01] and you can express your anger
[00:44:02] and you can do this
[00:44:04] on the field, right?
[00:44:06] Or you get into some other
[00:44:07] some other sport where it's
[00:44:08] very satisfying and you feel
[00:44:09] better after you do it
[00:44:10] because this physical
[00:44:11] sensation goes up,
[00:44:12] emotional sensation goes down.
[00:44:14] So you're like, oh, I feel
[00:44:14] so much better.
[00:44:15] You get this hit of dopamine
[00:44:17] and you want to keep doing it.
[00:44:18] It's kind of an addiction, right?
[00:44:20] It's a preoccupation.
[00:44:21] It's like social media
[00:44:22] and it's a healthy one, right?
[00:44:24] If you use it right.
[00:44:24] But if it's instead of
[00:44:27] getting the emotional support
[00:44:29] that you need, if it's in place
[00:44:30] of you having some emotional
[00:44:33] awareness, it's not going to
[00:44:35] probably go so well,
[00:44:36] especially if at some point
[00:44:39] you get so good at that thing,
[00:44:41] you're doing a lot of it
[00:44:42] and you start to have pain.
[00:44:44] It shows up, you know.
[00:44:45] Now you're not choosing
[00:44:46] that kind of pain.
[00:44:47] This isn't the kind of this
[00:44:48] isn't going out to intervals.
[00:44:49] This isn't going out to have
[00:44:50] our rock climbing session.
[00:44:51] This is like, I don't know.
[00:44:53] This pain is out of my control.
[00:44:55] It creates a lot of uncertainty,
[00:44:56] creates a lot of fear.
[00:44:58] Suddenly you don't have
[00:44:58] that coping strategy anymore.
[00:45:00] So what are you going to do?
[00:45:01] Right? Then what do you do?
[00:45:02] You do with your emotions.
[00:45:04] That strategy that works
[00:45:05] so well for a little while
[00:45:06] is started to fail you.
[00:45:08] And this is your brain
[00:45:09] doing you a favor.
[00:45:11] Ultimately, right?
[00:45:12] Because we all need to have
[00:45:14] some amount of emotional
[00:45:15] intelligence.
[00:45:16] It makes life very hard
[00:45:17] when we don't.
[00:45:18] People get used to it.
[00:45:19] People get very good
[00:45:20] at stuffing their emotions.
[00:45:22] People get very good
[00:45:22] at subverting them.
[00:45:24] But it causes a lot of stress
[00:45:26] and people don't realize it
[00:45:27] because they've never known
[00:45:28] anything different.
[00:45:29] They weren't raised in a
[00:45:29] household where they had a
[00:45:30] lot of support for that.
[00:45:32] So I just often
[00:45:33] I think of sports as a
[00:45:35] like any coping strategy.
[00:45:36] It's solving a problem
[00:45:38] in the short term.
[00:45:40] But then at some point
[00:45:41] pain is going to show up
[00:45:42] to help you recognize
[00:45:44] that that strategy is
[00:45:46] no longer working
[00:45:47] and you need to have some new
[00:45:49] skills.
[00:45:50] Does that answer your question?
[00:45:51] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:52] That definitely helps.
[00:45:53] I think that can help paint
[00:45:54] a picture and especially
[00:45:55] for my audience listening here,
[00:45:56] they have some sort of idea
[00:45:57] and they're trying to grasp
[00:45:58] like what we're talking about.
[00:45:59] And they're here for a reason.
[00:46:01] They're on this listening
[00:46:02] to this podcast for a reason
[00:46:03] because they know
[00:46:03] so there's something different
[00:46:04] or some different approach
[00:46:05] they need to take.
[00:46:07] So yeah, that's really helpful.
[00:46:09] So I'll ask one last question
[00:46:10] is I know we've kind of talked
[00:46:12] about a lot and there's
[00:46:13] so much more, right?
[00:46:15] Is there anything specific
[00:46:17] that we haven't talked about
[00:46:19] that you feel is important
[00:46:20] for someone that's just coming
[00:46:21] to this work and recognizing
[00:46:24] there's some other mind, body,
[00:46:26] emotional component to their pain?
[00:46:28] Good question.
[00:46:29] I mean, knowledge is power.
[00:46:30] I think this all starts
[00:46:31] with helping people understand
[00:46:34] modern pain science
[00:46:35] that this isn't some
[00:46:36] woo woo alternative idea
[00:46:38] that affects a minority
[00:46:39] of people.
[00:46:40] I want people to understand
[00:46:42] that this is a very normal,
[00:46:43] common, very human phenomenon
[00:46:45] that is the cause of most pain.
[00:46:47] It's not rare.
[00:46:48] So there's a ton of information
[00:46:51] out there, podcasts, books,
[00:46:52] articles, science
[00:46:54] for those who like that
[00:46:56] about how the paradigm
[00:46:58] is shifting around this.
[00:46:59] And that's step one.
[00:47:01] I think the thing that's missing
[00:47:02] for a lot of athletes
[00:47:03] is they never have someone
[00:47:05] evaluate their body
[00:47:07] from this new perspective.
[00:47:08] They never have a clinician
[00:47:10] that's able to look at their body
[00:47:11] objectively
[00:47:12] and to be able to rule it out.
[00:47:14] Like definitively
[00:47:16] tell that athlete
[00:47:17] what's true about your body
[00:47:18] and what's not true.
[00:47:19] Like you were told that hypermobility
[00:47:21] is really dangerous.
[00:47:22] It's a real problem.
[00:47:23] Right. It's not going to be helpful.
[00:47:25] So you need a clinician
[00:47:26] that understands the science enough
[00:47:28] to be able to do an objective examination.
[00:47:30] Make sure there are no red flags.
[00:47:32] Make sure there's nothing dangerous
[00:47:33] going on that person's body.
[00:47:35] Help them shift beliefs
[00:47:37] so that they can even like
[00:47:38] start the process.
[00:47:39] I feel like
[00:47:41] people can sometimes bypass that
[00:47:43] and just jump into the strategies
[00:47:44] or like, OK, I get it.
[00:47:45] This makes sense.
[00:47:46] Let's just start doing
[00:47:47] emotional processing
[00:47:48] and whatever.
[00:47:50] But for a lot of athletes
[00:47:51] without that
[00:47:52] without that definitive rule out
[00:47:54] I think it really holds them back.
[00:47:56] It's really it's really limiting
[00:47:58] because in the back of their mind
[00:47:59] there's still some doubt
[00:48:00] based on what other people have said
[00:48:01] or just based on societal norms
[00:48:03] that sports lead
[00:48:05] to your body wearing out.
[00:48:06] I had a follower DM me
[00:48:08] on Instagram the other day
[00:48:09] and he asked someone told him
[00:48:11] that if he keeps lifting weights
[00:48:14] he's going to wear his body out.
[00:48:15] That's his person in the gym.
[00:48:16] And he's asking me like, is that true?
[00:48:18] Is that true that I'm going to have
[00:48:20] this worst case scenario outcome
[00:48:21] if I keep lifting weights?
[00:48:22] Of course it's not true.
[00:48:23] Like lifting weights is the best thing
[00:48:25] you could do for your body, you know?
[00:48:27] But we have to bust those myths
[00:48:29] often to to a new doubt.
[00:48:32] So people can can really start
[00:48:34] to access these other strategies
[00:48:36] that they haven't tried.
[00:48:37] Yeah, that information piece
[00:48:39] that exploration of what is actually
[00:48:41] going on with your body
[00:48:42] and getting that confirmation
[00:48:43] is so, so powerful for the brain.
[00:48:46] It can help release that fear
[00:48:48] and that doubt.
[00:48:49] There might still be a little bit,
[00:48:50] you know, every now and then
[00:48:51] but still it can be really powerful
[00:48:53] to then have a focus
[00:48:55] with understanding your emotional processing
[00:48:57] and working with the mind and body.
[00:48:58] So yeah, I appreciate you saying that.
[00:49:00] And you mentioned your Instagram
[00:49:01] I was going to say there's
[00:49:02] you give lots of amazing tips and tools
[00:49:04] so we'll link all of that below
[00:49:06] in the show notes.
[00:49:07] Is there anything else
[00:49:08] anywhere else people can find you
[00:49:09] that you're doing right now
[00:49:10] you can provide support
[00:49:12] or sessions or anything like that?
[00:49:14] Sure, well, you know,
[00:49:15] I'm only one person
[00:49:16] in this little practice
[00:49:18] and so I work with a company
[00:49:20] called Lynn Health,
[00:49:21] L-I-N dot health
[00:49:23] and it's a digital health platform
[00:49:25] or working to scale
[00:49:26] basically what I do
[00:49:27] so that more people can access it
[00:49:29] it's insurance based
[00:49:30] this nationwide
[00:49:31] and it's it's more affordable
[00:49:33] than like seeing, you know,
[00:49:36] a niche like hiring clinician.
[00:49:38] So I encourage people to look into that.
[00:49:41] I'm going to start posting on YouTube again.
[00:49:43] This is going to motivate me
[00:49:44] to start posting on YouTube.
[00:49:45] So put some content out there.
[00:49:47] Otherwise, you know,
[00:49:48] I do a lot of teaching.
[00:49:49] I have an athlete course for athletes.
[00:49:52] We have eight incredible athletes
[00:49:54] in this cohort right now
[00:49:55] and that's another way
[00:49:56] to get access to these tools
[00:49:57] is to join my
[00:49:59] unlearning pain for athletes course.
[00:50:02] And then I also teach clinicians
[00:50:03] so I'm just wrapping up a
[00:50:05] specialty course I built
[00:50:07] for the PRT center,
[00:50:08] the Pain and Processing Therapy Center
[00:50:10] specifically for my colleagues
[00:50:12] so that we can get out
[00:50:14] from underneath this bias
[00:50:15] that we all learn in school
[00:50:17] and really start to
[00:50:19] support people in a different way
[00:50:20] change people's lives.
[00:50:21] So those are some of the things
[00:50:23] that I'm doing.
[00:50:23] I'm happy to share this
[00:50:24] pain and athletes article PDF
[00:50:26] if anybody wants to read it
[00:50:28] and learn more about, you know,
[00:50:29] how this plays out in athletes.
[00:50:33] How do you do that?
[00:50:33] Put that in the show notes.
[00:50:35] Awesome.
[00:50:36] Yeah, that's really helpful.
[00:50:37] I will, yeah,
[00:50:38] we'll include everything below
[00:50:39] and thank you so much for coming on.
[00:50:42] Really, really helpful.
[00:50:43] We have a lot of
[00:50:45] I mean, I talk about this stuff.
[00:50:46] I have people come on
[00:50:47] to talk about this stuff,
[00:50:48] but especially from a physical
[00:50:50] practitioner standpoint,
[00:50:51] it's really helpful to get
[00:50:52] that information, that confirmation.
[00:50:54] So, yeah,
[00:50:55] appreciate all that you're doing.
[00:50:57] Yeah, thank you for making the space
[00:50:59] to talk about this space.
[00:51:01] I really appreciate you
[00:51:01] and for sharing
[00:51:02] some of your personal experiences.
[00:51:05] Yeah, for sure.
[00:51:05] And this will be on YouTube,
[00:51:07] so you'll have one video up there.
[00:51:09] Yes, let's go.
[00:51:11] All right, thanks, Charlie.
[00:51:13] Thank you.
[00:51:15] If this podcast means something to you,
[00:51:17] it would mean so much to me
[00:51:18] if you could do these couple things.
[00:51:20] One, go to the Heal with Grace Show
[00:51:21] page wherever you listen
[00:51:23] and tap the plus sign
[00:51:24] or click on the follow button
[00:51:26] so you don't miss an episode.
[00:51:27] It helps both of us out.
[00:51:29] While you're there,
[00:51:30] if you could give a five star review
[00:51:32] so that this podcast can reach more people,
[00:51:35] it would mean so much to me
[00:51:36] so I can continue sharing episodes
[00:51:38] that help you as well as others.
[00:51:40] Thanks for listening
[00:51:41] and I hope this brings you
[00:51:42] hope on your journey.