How to Overcome Health Anxiety with Liana Mauro

[00:00:00] Hello, hello, beautiful humans.
[00:00:02] Welcome back to the Heal with Grace podcast.
[00:00:05] Today I am joined by Liana, one of my co-hosts.
[00:00:09] She's been on here before,
[00:00:10] and if you haven't listened to her episodes previously,
[00:00:13] highly recommend.
[00:00:15] She has been a therapist for some of our clients.
[00:00:18] She's helped us in the mind body healing method.
[00:00:20] She's a licensed professional counselor,
[00:00:22] somatic psychotherapist and nervous system coach
[00:00:25] based in Austin, Texas
[00:00:26] who helps clients break free from health anxiety,
[00:00:29] chronic symptoms and trauma
[00:00:31] by reconnecting with their bodies
[00:00:32] through nervous system regulation
[00:00:34] and other mind body techniques.
[00:00:36] You can find all of her information linked below.
[00:00:38] And the reason why I'm so excited for this episode
[00:00:41] is because literally we got off,
[00:00:43] or we stopped recording, I like hit stop
[00:00:45] and we both go, we look at each other and we're like,
[00:00:47] oh my gosh, that was so good.
[00:00:49] That was such a great episode.
[00:00:50] We're gonna send that to like everyone we know
[00:00:53] who needs to hear it, which is so many people
[00:00:55] because health anxiety is such an issue
[00:00:57] and like it really drives our symptoms.
[00:00:59] So we talk to you about like what it is,
[00:01:03] how to work with it, tips in order to get out of it
[00:01:06] and some really great examples.
[00:01:07] So I'm excited for this one.
[00:01:09] I know I say that up at a lot, which is very true,
[00:01:12] but yeah, especially cause I love a co-host
[00:01:14] and Leon is a wonderful one.
[00:01:16] So without further ado, I hope you enjoy.
[00:01:19] See you soon.
[00:01:21] Hey there and welcome to Heal with Grace.
[00:01:24] I'm your host Grace Secker
[00:01:25] and I'm a holistic licensed therapist
[00:01:27] and nervous system coach who believes that the chronic
[00:01:30] and often unseen symptoms you're living with
[00:01:32] are a sign of something deeper going on.
[00:01:34] A sign that your nervous system needs attention.
[00:01:37] In each episode, I'll share the science
[00:01:39] behind the most common chronic health disorders
[00:01:42] plus holistic health tips
[00:01:43] using mental, physical and spiritual practices.
[00:01:46] You'll hear what I've learned in my journey
[00:01:48] and the true stories from our trusted guests
[00:01:50] so you can feel less alone in your experience
[00:01:53] and give yourself grace
[00:01:54] no matter what you're going through.
[00:01:56] So without further ado,
[00:01:57] settle in and get cozy.
[00:01:59] It's time to heal with grace.
[00:02:02] Leona, I'm so excited to have you back.
[00:02:05] Thank you for coming
[00:02:06] and I'm really excited for this episode.
[00:02:09] Thank you so much for having me.
[00:02:11] I'm excited to be back with you
[00:02:12] and I'm also looking forward to chatting about this.
[00:02:15] It's one of my favorite topics.
[00:02:16] I love chatting about anything anxiety related.
[00:02:20] So thanks for having me.
[00:02:21] Yeah, you really come into this being a big specialty
[00:02:25] for you really working with clients
[00:02:27] on that anxiety piece of not only health
[00:02:29] but in so many other ways.
[00:02:31] And life, that's so important
[00:02:32] because it's one of the biggest questions I think
[00:02:34] that we get like, well, I'm so anxious about this.
[00:02:37] How do I stop the anxiety, right?
[00:02:39] It happens all the time.
[00:02:40] And so I think this is gonna be a really helpful episode.
[00:02:43] First and foremost,
[00:02:44] let's just have a little check-in
[00:02:47] of where you are in your practice.
[00:02:49] How's Austin life?
[00:02:51] Just give us a little like second of how you're doing.
[00:02:54] Yeah, Austin's amazing.
[00:02:56] We're like coming into the spring time
[00:02:58] which is like such a short period of time here
[00:03:01] and it's just the most perfect weather.
[00:03:04] And I'm doing a lot of in-person work with my clients now
[00:03:07] which I love so much,
[00:03:08] especially in working with anxiety.
[00:03:11] I find that I really enjoy kind of
[00:03:13] just like the co-regulation part of the work.
[00:03:16] I find that to be stronger.
[00:03:18] For me personally, I feel it more
[00:03:20] when I'm doing in-person work.
[00:03:21] So I'm really enjoying it.
[00:03:23] Life has been good.
[00:03:24] Awesome.
[00:03:25] And you've been doing a lot of trainings too.
[00:03:28] I have, I have.
[00:03:29] You've been in there with me.
[00:03:31] We've been busy with this.
[00:03:33] Yeah.
[00:03:34] Anything stand out to you in terms of that?
[00:03:36] Like what are you loving right now in your training
[00:03:38] or trainings or like, what do you love?
[00:03:40] I said that twice.
[00:03:41] What do you love about your trainings right now?
[00:03:43] I think we talked about this when you were in town
[00:03:47] but I think one of the things
[00:03:48] that I've really enjoyed lately
[00:03:50] is getting a better understanding
[00:03:53] of really incorporating movement
[00:03:55] in an intentional way in session
[00:03:58] where I'm following the client's body
[00:04:01] and their cues that they're giving off in session
[00:04:04] because our bodies are, I've always said this,
[00:04:07] they're infinitely wise
[00:04:08] and they're always trying to help us.
[00:04:10] And I've gained a lot of information recently
[00:04:13] about really being able to pay attention
[00:04:15] to how somebody's body is subtly moving
[00:04:21] and helping kind of guide them through it,
[00:04:23] often to help bring in more regulation into their system
[00:04:28] but it can also help a lot
[00:04:29] in helping complete stuck trauma cycles
[00:04:33] that never got to happen
[00:04:35] and so get stuck in the body.
[00:04:37] I'm loving that.
[00:04:38] Yeah, which is so much where health anxiety comes from
[00:04:41] when things get stuck, right?
[00:04:42] We get really fearful about what could or should happen
[00:04:45] and a lot of times that's because we were never
[00:04:47] able to complete a stress cycle, a trauma cycle.
[00:04:50] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:04:51] Yeah.
[00:04:52] Okay, so then let's jump right in.
[00:04:54] Why don't you kick us off?
[00:04:55] Like what exactly is health anxiety?
[00:04:57] What are we talking about here?
[00:04:59] Yeah, health anxiety is a really intense,
[00:05:03] very persistent kind of overtaking worry
[00:05:05] that something is seriously wrong with your health
[00:05:08] even though there's no medical evidence to support that
[00:05:11] and sometimes it can stem from a condition
[00:05:14] that you already have
[00:05:16] or symptoms that are actively present
[00:05:20] but other times it can come from a really big fear,
[00:05:24] a real fear that you're gonna develop a serious illness
[00:05:27] in the future.
[00:05:28] Some signs of this can be like if you find yourself
[00:05:30] just kind of like frantically googling
[00:05:33] anytime you have a symptom
[00:05:35] or feeling really nervous before certain situations
[00:05:39] like maybe going out to eat or trips
[00:05:42] or just very convinced that the doctors
[00:05:44] are missing something.
[00:05:46] These are clues that you might be dealing
[00:05:48] with health anxiety.
[00:05:50] And I think something that you and I talk about a lot
[00:05:53] is that even though a lot of the work that we do
[00:05:56] is it's brain-based
[00:05:58] but if you are experiencing symptoms
[00:06:00] like it's not in your head,
[00:06:02] like the fear is very, very real
[00:06:04] but the key differentiator here
[00:06:06] and then the work that we do is that
[00:06:08] it's not rooted in anything physical.
[00:06:10] There's nothing wrong in your body.
[00:06:12] It's actually your brain and nervous system's perception
[00:06:16] of there being something wrong.
[00:06:18] Yeah, I think that's a really important indicator.
[00:06:20] Health anxiety is real, is true, it's happening.
[00:06:23] And I mean, how could you not have anxiety
[00:06:26] about symptoms that are unexplained
[00:06:29] or not being helped or continue to drive
[00:06:33] so much dysregulation, fear, pain,
[00:06:37] symptoms in your body?
[00:06:39] Yeah, you're gonna have some anxiety around it
[00:06:40] because it's unpredictable.
[00:06:42] You don't know what to do with it.
[00:06:44] I was actually just talking to someone
[00:06:45] who was describing to me that
[00:06:49] he's had these symptoms that have lingered
[00:06:51] from getting the flu a couple months ago
[00:06:53] and he didn't understand it.
[00:06:55] Honestly, I didn't wanna jump right into it
[00:06:57] but it really sounded like chronic fatigue, right?
[00:07:00] But his main thing was like,
[00:07:02] I just don't understand.
[00:07:05] I don't get it.
[00:07:06] Like I don't understand what's happening
[00:07:07] and no one can tell me what's wrong.
[00:07:09] And so then he said, he was like, yeah, I'm not sleeping
[00:07:12] and like I have so much anxiety, I can't work.
[00:07:14] I'm not, you know, so of course you can't.
[00:07:16] I mean, of course there's anxiety
[00:07:18] because you're not sure what's going on.
[00:07:21] And so yeah, I think understanding those signs,
[00:07:24] like if you're constantly ruminating,
[00:07:26] if you're constantly thinking over and over again
[00:07:28] about what's going to happen, what's not going to happen.
[00:07:31] If you wake up being fearful
[00:07:32] about how your day is gonna go
[00:07:34] because you're afraid that something that you don't know
[00:07:37] or some food will trigger your symptoms, that's a big one.
[00:07:40] Constantly Googling, can't stop Googling symptoms.
[00:07:44] That's a rough one.
[00:07:45] And I also think that the label hypochondria
[00:07:50] can be a label, can be a diagnosis.
[00:07:53] At the same time, the way that we think of diagnoses
[00:07:58] is that on one hand, sometimes it can be helpful
[00:08:00] to understand something, right?
[00:08:02] To put language to it to help you recognize
[00:08:05] maybe some things you didn't realize and give it a name
[00:08:08] because it then becomes known
[00:08:10] when you weren't sure what was going on.
[00:08:12] At the same time, I think that we both believe,
[00:08:15] correct me if I'm wrong, that they can also be really limiting.
[00:08:18] And I think I've actually shared this on the podcast
[00:08:20] as well, that giving a diagnosis
[00:08:22] without the explanation that it can change.
[00:08:25] It's not your forever, it's not your life, right?
[00:08:28] Can be harmful, can be really harmful to someone
[00:08:30] where you just slap a label on and you think,
[00:08:32] like, that's it, that's my life.
[00:08:33] Oh my gosh, what do I do?
[00:08:35] So I wanna put that out there before we go into this
[00:08:38] and recognize that we're gonna describe the difference
[00:08:40] and also realize it's a spectrum.
[00:08:42] Like when I was in school, I remember being in class
[00:08:45] with the DSM, the diagnostic manual.
[00:08:48] And the professor was like,
[00:08:50] now you're gonna flip through all these things
[00:08:52] and you're probably gonna find yourself
[00:08:54] or someone else have markers of anything, everything,
[00:08:57] right?
[00:08:58] It doesn't mean you fit the whole bill,
[00:09:00] you fit the whole box and that something's wrong, right?
[00:09:03] At the same time, yes, it can be helpful to understand
[00:09:06] like what's going on and to give it a name.
[00:09:08] So with that little disclaimer,
[00:09:10] what are your thoughts on the differences?
[00:09:11] Like how would you explain that to someone?
[00:09:13] What's the difference between meeting maybe more criteria
[00:09:16] for hyperchondria and having some health anxiety?
[00:09:19] Yeah, and thanks for that explanation on diagnoses.
[00:09:21] I know that you and I share that perspective.
[00:09:24] But yeah, as far as the difference,
[00:09:25] I would say health anxiety is much more general,
[00:09:30] can still like create a lot of kind of like debilitation,
[00:09:34] but it's not, it's gonna be more sporadic,
[00:09:37] maybe not an intense part of your life
[00:09:40] in an ongoing kind of a way.
[00:09:42] Whereas when I think of hyperchondria,
[00:09:43] this is gonna be really intense rumination
[00:09:46] about health and disease on a daily basis.
[00:09:51] It's gonna be very disruptive, very debilitating.
[00:09:54] And your description of it being on a spectrum
[00:09:58] is spot on, right?
[00:09:59] Because I would call someone who doesn't deal
[00:10:02] with any of this kind of like at the bottom
[00:10:05] health anxiety kind of in the middle
[00:10:06] and then hyperchondria on the far end of that spectrum,
[00:10:10] the most extreme presentation.
[00:10:12] So like maybe even example could be helpful.
[00:10:15] Like we all kind of will have those nights
[00:10:18] where we maybe sleep wrong and in a weird position
[00:10:22] and then we wake up and our neck is sore.
[00:10:24] Many people will wake up and be like,
[00:10:25] oh, I slept weird, no big deal.
[00:10:28] This will go away in a day or two.
[00:10:30] Someone with health anxiety might think,
[00:10:32] oh gosh, like what if I injured my neck?
[00:10:35] What if something's wrong?
[00:10:37] Maybe I need to go see my chiropractor today.
[00:10:40] Someone with hyperchondria is very likely gonna wake up
[00:10:44] and think, oh my gosh, like I have a tumor in my neck.
[00:10:47] Like I have cancer, something is wrong.
[00:10:50] I need to like go to the ER and make sure
[00:10:53] I need to get scans, I need to get lab work done
[00:10:56] because they are convinced that a tumor is in their neck.
[00:10:59] So that's kind of like the way it can present itself.
[00:11:03] That's a really helpful clear example.
[00:11:06] And if you're listening to this
[00:11:07] and you see yourself fall in one area over the other
[00:11:10] or maybe you're a little bit more
[00:11:11] in the health anxiety and you're like,
[00:11:13] wow, I've never thought that way before,
[00:11:16] maybe that extreme, right?
[00:11:17] It's, I've heard that multiple times
[00:11:20] and this is not a initiation for you to start thinking
[00:11:23] in the higher anxiety states with your body.
[00:11:27] It's just examples.
[00:11:29] And I think that this goes right along the lines
[00:11:31] with like helping us understand like,
[00:11:33] how does health anxiety actually affect
[00:11:34] our mind and our bodies?
[00:11:36] So when we're talking about the mind-body connection,
[00:11:38] especially with chronic symptoms,
[00:11:39] we know that it's a cycle
[00:11:41] because on one hand, our health anxiety increases fear
[00:11:45] which increases our symptoms,
[00:11:47] but then also our symptoms increases our fear
[00:11:50] and anxiety, right?
[00:11:51] Like chronic pain and fatigue are two conditions
[00:11:53] that totally perpetuate anxiety
[00:11:55] because there's usually a very real reason
[00:11:58] that you would have anxiety
[00:11:59] because your body's in pain
[00:12:01] or your body has something going on
[00:12:02] that you don't understand.
[00:12:03] Thus, triggering more anxiety.
[00:12:06] So it creates that stress response,
[00:12:08] creates more of a chronic state of stress
[00:12:10] within our bodies,
[00:12:12] which we know when the nervous system is stuck
[00:12:14] in the stress response
[00:12:16] and hasn't been able to fully express that,
[00:12:18] go through the cycle like you were talking about earlier,
[00:12:22] then our bodies can lead to actually all types
[00:12:25] of different illnesses or symptoms,
[00:12:27] lead to inflammation, lead to organ failure,
[00:12:30] lead to pain, lead to the shutdown response
[00:12:33] which is really chronic fatigue.
[00:12:34] I mean, that's just a few tiny examples.
[00:12:38] And so it kind of perpetuates each other.
[00:12:40] And so we know that when this happens time and time
[00:12:43] again, the mind and body just can't really relax very well.
[00:12:47] So with that, it's hard to shift it.
[00:12:52] It's hard to shift out, but it's totally doable.
[00:12:54] And actually I would say this is probably
[00:12:56] one of the biggest things we help people do, right?
[00:12:59] Because when you're in a constant state of fear
[00:13:01] your body can't relax, so your symptoms can't relax.
[00:13:04] And there's always new levels of it.
[00:13:05] So with that, I know I kind of,
[00:13:08] I think I took over what you wanted to talk about
[00:13:10] a little bit, but what would you add to that
[00:13:12] like pain for your cycle?
[00:13:14] Yeah, I mean, you're right, like that is the foundation
[00:13:17] I think of a lot of the work that both you and I do.
[00:13:20] And the ironic thing about this is that,
[00:13:25] when you're having a lot of symptoms and a lot of fear
[00:13:27] like the natural response is like let's go to a doctor.
[00:13:32] Let's go see a practitioner, let's try this diet,
[00:13:36] let's try these supplements.
[00:13:38] And the ironic thing about that is that,
[00:13:42] of course you want to rule out anything medically wrong.
[00:13:46] We always wanna do that in this type of work.
[00:13:49] But when we're talking about that pain for your cycle
[00:13:51] when you're like frantically running around
[00:13:53] like looking for solutions,
[00:13:55] it actually creates more fear in your system.
[00:13:57] It creates more of that intensity.
[00:14:00] And so there does get to be a point where,
[00:14:04] as long as you've ruled things out
[00:14:06] like I know you and I have talked about this
[00:14:08] like I think we both recommended a certain point
[00:14:11] for clients to put a pause on all of that
[00:14:15] because that can be part of what really spikes
[00:14:18] that fear response in your body
[00:14:20] and actually create more symptoms.
[00:14:22] And so that can be a kind of confusing one
[00:14:25] but there's all kinds of things
[00:14:27] that can really perpetuate this state of fear
[00:14:31] that we see come up for clients.
[00:14:34] Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.
[00:14:36] Sometimes it can be a little bit of a tricky place to be
[00:14:39] of okay, how much do you search physically?
[00:14:41] How much do you not?
[00:14:43] But there does, you're right.
[00:14:44] There definitely comes a time where
[00:14:46] and there's been a few people I've been very directive out
[00:14:48] of like, hey, you gotta stop searching physically.
[00:14:51] It's confusing your brain, right?
[00:14:54] It's totally confusing if you're constantly trying
[00:14:56] to get scans or x-rays or more tests done
[00:15:00] or something trying to find a different solution
[00:15:03] but then you're also using mind and body work.
[00:15:05] It's very confusing for your nervous system.
[00:15:08] Yeah, because the mind and body work
[00:15:09] is trying to teach your brain
[00:15:11] the whole goal of that is teaching your brain
[00:15:12] that your body is safe.
[00:15:15] And so the act of searching around,
[00:15:18] getting more scans done, getting more testing done
[00:15:21] is actually telling your brain that your body is not safe.
[00:15:24] Yeah, exactly.
[00:15:26] And that there's not,
[00:15:28] that really there isn't something physically wrong with you.
[00:15:31] And we say this too, like,
[00:15:32] even if you do have something on an x-ray,
[00:15:36] if you keep searching, you will find something
[00:15:38] because your body is never perfect.
[00:15:40] There's always gonna be something wrong,
[00:15:42] especially with our spines,
[00:15:44] especially in the functional medicine world.
[00:15:47] Always, always, always.
[00:15:48] So there's always gonna be something more you can do
[00:15:51] that doesn't mean it's the answer though.
[00:15:52] And actually more often than not, it's not.
[00:15:54] Not only with me, I think I know with you
[00:15:56] and with many clients, they finally have realized like,
[00:16:00] oh, yeah, this test might show that I have leaky gut
[00:16:03] but actually I've been doing this work
[00:16:05] and it's still shows leaky gut
[00:16:07] but I'm actually better.
[00:16:09] Yeah, here sometimes go away.
[00:16:12] And I know I've talked about this here before
[00:16:14] but even in the training that you and I did together,
[00:16:17] pain reprocessing therapy,
[00:16:20] it talks about that there's kind of more
[00:16:22] the mind-body realm of symptomology
[00:16:24] and then there's the physical side.
[00:16:27] And you also know like something I'm very passionate about
[00:16:31] is that even when there is something physical,
[00:16:34] it doesn't mean that you have to have symptoms
[00:16:36] or as severe of symptoms
[00:16:37] because sometimes when you find something
[00:16:42] and talk about it here,
[00:16:44] but I have like severely degenerated jaw joints
[00:16:48] that create limitations for me.
[00:16:50] However, when I began implementing this work,
[00:16:53] my experience of daily living has changed significantly
[00:16:57] because I learned how to interrupt that pain fear cycle
[00:17:02] where it doesn't have to be scary,
[00:17:04] I don't have to be scared of the future.
[00:17:06] And that means that my brain doesn't have to sound
[00:17:09] the alarm at me in the form of symptoms
[00:17:12] and in the form of pain.
[00:17:13] And I think that that's like,
[00:17:15] I get very excited about that
[00:17:16] because this work is so broad reaching
[00:17:19] for all kinds of symptoms.
[00:17:21] Yeah, exactly.
[00:17:23] And I have, I mean, personal and client-wise
[00:17:25] but countless stories of things like that.
[00:17:28] Technically I have some scoliosis in my spine.
[00:17:30] I do have leaky gut.
[00:17:32] I got an MRI on my shoulder years ago
[00:17:35] because I was having a lot of pain
[00:17:37] and it showed I have a tear
[00:17:39] but not where I was having pain.
[00:17:40] Totally somewhere else.
[00:17:41] They were like, oh yeah, you have a pain in your shoulder
[00:17:43] and I was like, well, but I feel the pain here.
[00:17:45] They're like, well, you know,
[00:17:47] I don't know, it's all connected kind of
[00:17:49] like they didn't have an explanation
[00:17:51] but I hold on to that, right?
[00:17:53] I mean, obviously something's wrong,
[00:17:54] something has to be changed, fixed, whatever.
[00:17:56] That tear is still there.
[00:17:57] I don't have pain.
[00:17:58] And that happens time and time again.
[00:18:00] Yes, and that's what's so amazing
[00:18:02] is that you truly can like rewire this response
[00:18:05] in your brain and your body.
[00:18:07] Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:08] So you work a lot with more OCD,
[00:18:12] phobias, health-related, non-health-related.
[00:18:16] Can you give us an example
[00:18:17] of how health anxiety might present
[00:18:20] and then actually what we do with it,
[00:18:22] like how we work to reduce
[00:18:24] or stop that pain fear cycle?
[00:18:26] Yeah, I have a client right now
[00:18:29] who she presents with, I mean, we've come,
[00:18:33] I think up with a list of over 40 phobias
[00:18:36] that present pretty strongly
[00:18:38] and have created a lot of restriction in her life
[00:18:41] and health anxiety, hypochondria is one of them.
[00:18:45] And, you know, all kinds of things
[00:18:47] kind of contribute to something like that.
[00:18:50] And I think that something that I like to talk
[00:18:54] about with clients is that usually
[00:18:57] when you're experiencing a lot of anxiety,
[00:19:00] health anxiety included, any type of phobia,
[00:19:03] there's a reason why your brain develops this.
[00:19:06] It's like an adaptive response
[00:19:07] that we learn through experience as a child and over time.
[00:19:12] Usually you've been through things that were scary
[00:19:15] and your brain learns to be in a more anxious state
[00:19:20] as a way to create this kind of like
[00:19:23] ongoing hypervigilance in your system
[00:19:25] as a way to kind of keep you safe from your environment.
[00:19:27] And so this can get turned into all kinds of things
[00:19:30] and turned inward into, you know,
[00:19:32] health anxiety phobias, all the spectrum.
[00:19:35] But the way that I, the base of how I work
[00:19:38] with all my clients facing various fears
[00:19:41] is really, really helping them establish safety
[00:19:45] within their bodies first and foremost
[00:19:49] and beginning to really differentiate
[00:19:52] between signals that are fear-based
[00:19:57] versus like what is actually true.
[00:19:59] So we begin to kind of break those things up, right?
[00:20:02] Like a phobia that I've been encountering more lately
[00:20:05] is like a fear of sitting in a chair.
[00:20:07] And, you know, this is an easy example to give
[00:20:10] because we can all like rationally recognize
[00:20:13] that there's nothing dangerous about sitting in a chair,
[00:20:16] right?
[00:20:16] And so any type of anxiety,
[00:20:18] we want to untangle those things
[00:20:21] and then begin giving new experiences of safety
[00:20:25] within the environment of the fear.
[00:20:28] And so beginning kind of like slow exposure,
[00:20:31] I like starting with visualization practices
[00:20:33] before ever going into anything.
[00:20:36] And, you know, specifically with health, you know,
[00:20:40] I do like to rule anything out medically first
[00:20:42] anytime I'm working with somebody in the realm of health.
[00:20:45] But then once we have really beginning
[00:20:48] to help clients learn that they can trust their body,
[00:20:52] like just because they wake up with neck pain, for example,
[00:20:56] that this can be a really normal just human experience.
[00:21:01] It's a sensation.
[00:21:03] It doesn't mean that anything dangerous is happening.
[00:21:07] So does that kind of, I know that's a very broad, okay.
[00:21:12] No, yeah, that's helpful because it,
[00:21:14] and I'll even note this too, you're right,
[00:21:17] the example of sitting in a chair,
[00:21:19] we want to say there's inherently nothing wrong
[00:21:22] or dangerous about it at the same time.
[00:21:24] I want to normalize that there's a lot of rhetoric
[00:21:26] and like health things around, oh, sitting's bad,
[00:21:30] standing's better.
[00:21:32] There's so much out there around what's best for your body,
[00:21:36] walking a certain amount of steps,
[00:21:38] eating a certain amount of foods,
[00:21:39] not sitting for long, blah, blah, blah.
[00:21:40] And if you've had a pain in your back,
[00:21:45] any kind of like physical type pain and joints,
[00:21:48] you probably have been told or talked to
[00:21:51] about how to sit or how not to sit.
[00:21:53] Like, well, I can't show you right now,
[00:21:55] but the way that I'm sitting,
[00:21:56] I'm always sitting with like a leg up or something, right?
[00:21:59] Or I'm sitting like this or whatever, right?
[00:22:01] Man, there was a time I was so afraid of that.
[00:22:04] I mean, I was 24 and told I could never do that.
[00:22:07] You have to sit perfectly aligned
[00:22:08] and your desk needs to be perfectly aligned
[00:22:11] with your height and blah, blah, blah.
[00:22:12] And yeah, I was terrified to sit like this.
[00:22:15] I was like, oh my gosh, that's gonna make my pain worse.
[00:22:17] No, I can do this.
[00:22:18] And if I'm here for, I don't know, a few hours,
[00:22:21] I get a little stiff, but I move around and I come back, right?
[00:22:24] There's nothing dangerous.
[00:22:26] Like, I'm so glad you said that, you're right.
[00:22:27] There's absolutely nothing dangerous
[00:22:29] about sitting in a chair.
[00:22:31] And anyway, shape or form at all.
[00:22:33] And if you've been told that
[00:22:35] and you're rolling your eyes and like, yeah,
[00:22:36] but that's this and this
[00:22:37] because of the structure of blah, blah, blah,
[00:22:39] just ask yourself,
[00:22:41] does it really help when you do sit perfectly straight?
[00:22:45] Are you pain-free?
[00:22:47] My guess is no, because you're so tense
[00:22:50] in maintaining that perfect posture and so aware
[00:22:54] that it actually creates more dangerous signals
[00:22:56] in your brain and body.
[00:22:57] Yep, yeah.
[00:23:00] And when you lean into relaxation
[00:23:01] and where your body wants to go, everything can relax.
[00:23:05] Yeah, exactly why,
[00:23:06] just why that safety part is so important.
[00:23:08] So actually, let's break that down for a second
[00:23:10] because there's, I'm sure people are like,
[00:23:13] what does that even mean?
[00:23:14] Creating safety in the body, right?
[00:23:16] So I can give an example, but also what would you say?
[00:23:19] What do you do with your clients
[00:23:20] when you're first starting off with them
[00:23:22] and talking to them about creating safety?
[00:23:24] Yeah, it really depends on the client
[00:23:26] but definitely beginning to create awareness
[00:23:31] within themselves.
[00:23:32] So we first in order to like grow
[00:23:35] or heal any parts of ourselves,
[00:23:37] I think it's, you have to have awareness
[00:23:39] of what's coming up for you, right?
[00:23:42] And so like somebody's just normal state,
[00:23:46] they may not be aware
[00:23:46] that they're constantly walking around holding tension, right?
[00:23:49] So first we actually need to develop the awareness
[00:23:51] to recognize that literally everywhere they're going,
[00:23:54] everything they're doing, they're tense, right?
[00:23:58] So first is definitely that
[00:24:00] and then beginning to teach very,
[00:24:03] I like sticking with very simple,
[00:24:05] like accessible, manageable ways
[00:24:07] for clients to begin bringing safety
[00:24:10] into their bodies like throughout the day.
[00:24:12] And so like using various breathing techniques,
[00:24:15] kind of somatic techniques,
[00:24:17] very, very gentle kind of like movement
[00:24:19] or things with our hands.
[00:24:21] And it's usually based on what the clients talking about,
[00:24:25] like they're discovering in their body,
[00:24:26] but I'll ask in session,
[00:24:28] if you really check in with yourself right now,
[00:24:30] like what do you notice physically, right?
[00:24:32] Some people that's easy,
[00:24:34] that's an easy question to answer.
[00:24:35] Other people, it takes a bit longer to gain that awareness,
[00:24:39] but that's typically how I begin approaching it.
[00:24:42] Yeah, safety is well, can be.
[00:24:46] Eventually it may not, to your point at first,
[00:24:49] feel like this, but it's a felt sense,
[00:24:51] it's a state of being.
[00:24:53] A lot of times our state of being is like control,
[00:24:56] rigid, tension, tightness, right?
[00:24:59] And the way to create safety
[00:25:01] is to start to implement feeling a state of being,
[00:25:05] a state of relaxation,
[00:25:07] a state of safety in our bodies,
[00:25:08] even just a little bit at a time,
[00:25:10] more and more and more.
[00:25:12] I love like self-compassion, heart-centered practices.
[00:25:15] So usually when I ask people,
[00:25:17] there's always at some point,
[00:25:19] I don't care how old you are,
[00:25:20] how long you've been in pain or symptoms,
[00:25:22] there is a time, at least a time when,
[00:25:25] and I'll say many times,
[00:25:26] but sometimes we don't realize it,
[00:25:28] where you have felt safe in your body,
[00:25:29] you have felt some sort of warmth,
[00:25:33] some sort of presence.
[00:25:35] And so it may not come to you right away,
[00:25:37] but I'll try to figure out, okay,
[00:25:39] where is that time?
[00:25:40] When's the time where you felt present?
[00:25:41] It might be really micro,
[00:25:42] like, oh, I'm sitting on the couch with my pet,
[00:25:46] and I feel cuddly, that could be a sense of safety.
[00:25:50] Or yeah, when I was on this trip,
[00:25:52] I was so present, I forgot about other things.
[00:25:55] That's a sense of safety.
[00:25:57] Or maybe when I gave myself a little compassion,
[00:26:00] just like a little flexibility,
[00:26:02] that's a sense of safety.
[00:26:03] So pulling on when you've already felt it,
[00:26:06] because you have, you totally have some way, shape, or form.
[00:26:09] And I know that could even sound like some privilege
[00:26:12] because people that have been in really abusive situations
[00:26:15] might say never,
[00:26:16] and there might be more truth to that for sure,
[00:26:18] but we can pull on one something, right?
[00:26:22] And then we keep increasing that felt sense,
[00:26:24] truly that felt sense in our bodies, yeah.
[00:26:27] Yeah, I love that.
[00:26:28] And once you identify that,
[00:26:30] I wanna kind of build off of that.
[00:26:32] It can be helpful to kind of use that as your,
[00:26:35] it's like an inner resource.
[00:26:37] So like if cuddling with your pet
[00:26:40] is a place where you feel safe,
[00:26:42] then how can you like draw on that memory
[00:26:46] than your brain and body, right?
[00:26:47] Cause only think back on those types of things
[00:26:49] we can often recreate that feeling in our body.
[00:26:54] And so when you're noticing states of anxiety
[00:26:57] and stress, you can then kind of pull that memory in
[00:27:01] and create that sense of safety within yourself.
[00:27:05] Yeah, and this brings us to what we were gonna talk about
[00:27:08] is like the tips to work with health anxiety.
[00:27:12] This 1000% would be the first one
[00:27:14] just to start to establish that idea
[00:27:16] of what it feels like to be somewhat safe
[00:27:19] to be out of that anxious mind or anxious state.
[00:27:23] And understanding too,
[00:27:25] I don't wanna dismiss the brain cognitive side of this
[00:27:29] because it can be helpful to actually understand,
[00:27:32] actually, I think you said this to your point earlier
[00:27:33] of understand that, yeah,
[00:27:36] inherently sitting in a chair is not scary,
[00:27:38] is not dangerous and bring some cognition
[00:27:41] to this whole process of actually your body is saved
[00:27:44] and it's really just signals of danger.
[00:27:47] It's just a stressed out nervous system
[00:27:49] that we need to help shift, right?
[00:27:51] So that idea or just the understanding,
[00:27:54] the education can bring a lot of relief sometimes.
[00:27:58] It's not the whole picture
[00:27:59] but it can really help you understand, okay,
[00:28:00] what's going on because again,
[00:28:02] kind of what we were saying is that
[00:28:05] so much anxiety comes from the unknown
[00:28:07] of not knowing what's going on
[00:28:08] or not knowing what's going to happen.
[00:28:10] So if we can help bring a little,
[00:28:11] like release the valve on that unknown a little bit,
[00:28:14] that's one of the first steps
[00:28:15] of bringing awareness to all of it, yeah.
[00:28:18] What else would you say in terms of a tip
[00:28:20] for helping to establish
[00:28:22] or helping to work with health anxiety?
[00:28:25] We talk about somatic tracking a lot of times
[00:28:28] for working specifically with symptoms
[00:28:30] but I love it for anxiety as well.
[00:28:36] And all somatic tracking is observing
[00:28:38] without bringing meaning to it,
[00:28:42] observing and not connecting fear to a symptom.
[00:28:46] And I think of anxiety
[00:28:48] as another presentation of a symptom.
[00:28:50] It's not, the traditionally thought
[00:28:53] about like physical symptoms
[00:28:54] but it does create physical sensations.
[00:28:57] And so all of that is truly like observing
[00:29:01] what's happening within you
[00:29:02] without attaching meaning to it,
[00:29:04] just allowing it to be, right?
[00:29:06] I wanna point that out that the anxiety is a symptom.
[00:29:09] I don't think we've named that
[00:29:11] and I think it's really important to name
[00:29:13] because you're right, anxiety is a symptom.
[00:29:15] It's not a feeling
[00:29:16] even though people describe it as a feeling,
[00:29:18] it's not an emotion,
[00:29:19] it is a symptom of something else.
[00:29:23] And usually when I introduce that idea to people
[00:29:25] they're like, they think about it for a second.
[00:29:28] They're like, oh, it's not an emotion, it's not a feeling.
[00:29:32] No, anxiety is a protective mechanism.
[00:29:34] It's a way that your brain and your nervous system
[00:29:37] are trying to protect you.
[00:29:38] So it's a symptom.
[00:29:39] Just like any other symptom
[00:29:41] is a mechanism to try to protect you.
[00:29:43] And so it makes total sense
[00:29:45] we would work with it like a symptom.
[00:29:47] Yeah, yeah, thanks for naming that.
[00:29:50] Anything else on this?
[00:29:51] I see you're nodding.
[00:29:52] Oh, no, I'm just agreeing, yeah.
[00:29:54] Yeah, totally.
[00:29:56] Yeah, so another tip I want to talk about
[00:29:58] is helping you find evidence for your life
[00:30:03] that your symptoms are not physically rooted.
[00:30:06] So the way that we talked about the anxious,
[00:30:10] the anxiety for your cycle is a cycle
[00:30:13] because like your symptoms bring on anxiety
[00:30:15] and your anxiety brings on symptoms
[00:30:17] kind of the same way with finding evidence.
[00:30:19] Like when we have experiences
[00:30:22] of feeling safe in our bodies
[00:30:24] or we have experiences where we recognize,
[00:30:27] oh, I'm not having symptoms in this scenario
[00:30:29] or associated with this trigger,
[00:30:33] it gives our brains evidence
[00:30:34] that we don't have to have symptoms all the time.
[00:30:36] So creating an evidence journal is really powerful.
[00:30:39] Writing down all the times
[00:30:41] that you don't have symptoms like,
[00:30:42] oh, I was with friends or oh,
[00:30:44] I went out to dinner here or oh,
[00:30:47] I was, yeah, cuddling with my pet
[00:30:49] and I didn't have any symptoms.
[00:30:52] Writing them all down
[00:30:53] so that your brain can really recognize that,
[00:30:56] one, you don't have to have it all the time
[00:30:58] and you can really recognize too
[00:30:59] that it doesn't have to drive your life
[00:31:02] and actually there isn't anything wrong with you.
[00:31:03] It's not happening all the time
[00:31:05] because a lot of times we think like,
[00:31:07] well, I have this pain or I have this fatigue
[00:31:10] and it's there all the time.
[00:31:12] But actually if you really look at it, it's not.
[00:31:15] It's not.
[00:31:16] There are times where you don't
[00:31:18] and that evidence journal can be that
[00:31:20] because you keep orienting yourself
[00:31:23] towards the place of oh,
[00:31:26] yeah, I have times where I'm not in my symptoms
[00:31:29] and then it gives your brain that validation
[00:31:31] and that can be really powerful to realize.
[00:31:34] Yeah, a question I often ask
[00:31:35] that can help find these times
[00:31:38] is like what someone's favorite things are to do,
[00:31:42] what brings them joy
[00:31:43] because often when we're like fully engaged
[00:31:47] in experiences and really enjoying ourselves,
[00:31:50] we're in the present moment
[00:31:51] and when we're in the present moment
[00:31:53] in more of a flow state,
[00:31:55] that's gonna be in the parasympathetic
[00:31:58] part of our nervous system
[00:31:59] and the relaxation part of our nervous system.
[00:32:02] And so it's much easier for our brain
[00:32:04] to be looking at the world through a lens of safety
[00:32:09] and that includes our body.
[00:32:10] And so we'll often find that during times like that
[00:32:14] when your symptoms go away,
[00:32:16] clients will often say,
[00:32:18] oh, I just kind of forgot about them for a while.
[00:32:21] And if you're forgetting about them,
[00:32:22] they're probably not there.
[00:32:24] But that can be a helpful question to ask
[00:32:26] to help build that evidence list
[00:32:29] that there are times that your symptoms
[00:32:31] go completely away or at least decrease significantly.
[00:32:35] Yeah, I love that one.
[00:32:37] And if you're here thinking, well, it's never,
[00:32:40] try it, just try it, just try observing your day,
[00:32:44] seeing where it is throughout the week,
[00:32:45] maybe give yourself a week, not just one day.
[00:32:49] Yeah.
[00:32:50] Yeah, and observe versus like watch like a hawk, right?
[00:32:55] Because the energy that we bring
[00:32:58] to the different things that we talk about
[00:33:00] also impacts our brain state, right?
[00:33:04] Gentle observation is very different
[00:33:06] than like very intense kind of seeking out,
[00:33:10] like when is it not there?
[00:33:12] It's gonna be there.
[00:33:13] It's really different than,
[00:33:15] I wonder if there are times that
[00:33:17] I really don't feel anything.
[00:33:19] Wonder when I feel good.
[00:33:21] Wonder if it's possible if I feel good sometimes.
[00:33:23] Yeah, that sense of curiosity is a big one.
[00:33:27] And I wanna normalize too that
[00:33:29] that can be hard sometimes when you're really stuck in it.
[00:33:31] I remember trying to do this.
[00:33:33] Like I always aggrasp it, I got it.
[00:33:35] I read all the books, all the spiritual books
[00:33:37] about being curious.
[00:33:38] And I did it, like I would try it,
[00:33:42] but I still felt like it was, I was baking it, you know?
[00:33:45] Like, okay, I'm being curious,
[00:33:47] but I still had this sense of like intensity with it.
[00:33:50] I'm gonna force this curiosity.
[00:33:52] So just keep doing it and keep practicing.
[00:33:54] You'll feel it once you start feeling
[00:33:57] that sense of wonder and curiosity,
[00:34:00] you'll start to kind of grab on.
[00:34:02] But sometimes it takes a little time.
[00:34:05] It's a process.
[00:34:06] Yeah, yeah.
[00:34:08] Okay, I feel like we got into a lot of good stuff.
[00:34:10] Is there anything else you feel like is important
[00:34:13] or something you want to wrap up with?
[00:34:16] I feel like we've covered a lot too.
[00:34:19] I think one thing is that I often hear clients
[00:34:22] talking about feeling like their nervous system
[00:34:24] is broken or damaged or like their body is broken.
[00:34:28] And I think that's something I like to talk about
[00:34:30] to connect back to like our brain and body
[00:34:32] are always trying to protect us.
[00:34:34] Like there's reasons, whatever it is
[00:34:36] that you're dealing with has come about.
[00:34:38] And if you're feeling that way,
[00:34:41] shifting, working on shifting your perspective
[00:34:44] to recognize that your brain and body
[00:34:46] really are trying to help you and it's not broken.
[00:34:50] It's become an adaptive response for you
[00:34:52] and really teaching your brain and body
[00:34:55] that it's safe is possible.
[00:34:57] And so like with consistency,
[00:35:00] utilizing the things we talked about today,
[00:35:02] it really can learn that you're safe
[00:35:04] and that your body is safe.
[00:35:05] Yeah, thanks for that.
[00:35:06] That's a beautiful way of saying it.
[00:35:08] I think that I'm gonna leave it there.
[00:35:09] It was a great way to end.
[00:35:11] You can see below about what I'm offering
[00:35:14] and how to get in touch with Liana.
[00:35:16] And if you have not yet
[00:35:19] and you wanna see us on YouTube,
[00:35:20] we are on YouTube and so you can watch
[00:35:23] if you like to watch, listen if you like to listen.
[00:35:27] And until next time,
[00:35:28] just keep treating yourself with so much compassion,
[00:35:31] so much grace and we'll talk to you soon.
[00:35:35] If this podcast means something to you,
[00:35:37] it would mean so much to me
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[00:36:01] Thanks for listening
[00:36:02] and I hope this brings you hope on your journey.