What is Healthy Anger? A Conversation with Amanda Curry

[00:00:00] Hello, hello. Welcome back to the Heal With Grace podcast.
[00:00:05] I have Amanda on today. She and I met actually at a somatic feminine
[00:00:10] expression retreat. That's the best way I can describe it. And I
[00:00:15] just love the work that she's doing and putting out in the
[00:00:17] world. And we were like, let's do an episode, because we both
[00:00:22] had really transformational experiences of like what it
[00:00:26] feels like to actually embody certain emotions and how to
[00:00:31] embody something to feel it and to express it. We talk a lot
[00:00:34] about needing to like express emotions here, right, or feel
[00:00:38] them and let it be okay. And embodying them and embodying a
[00:00:41] way of like feeling is for me and for a lot of people has
[00:00:48] been so so empowering and really transformative. So that is
[00:00:52] why I have her on and you're going to love this
[00:00:54] conversation. So first and foremost, Amanda is a doctor of
[00:01:00] physical therapy and a certified oncology specialist.
[00:01:03] She's trauma informed. She's training camp for the Soul
[00:01:06] Master Facilitator and level one David Elliott Breathwork
[00:01:09] Facilitator. She has a fierce commitment to supporting
[00:01:13] those who struggle with feeling that they are too much are
[00:01:16] tired of living in shame and denial of their true essence.
[00:01:20] She's completely walked the path of the rigid, rigid minded
[00:01:23] overachiever and there's a lot of us there here, right? For the
[00:01:27] better part of two decades and had all the degrees and awards
[00:01:30] show for it. She was shining on the outside while slowly rotting
[00:01:33] within and the statement there has to be more pivoted her
[00:01:39] focus from self help books and cognitive behavioral therapy to
[00:01:42] somatic healing. That's where I feel like I am too. She
[00:01:45] found the root of what had kept her stuck overwhelmed and
[00:01:49] lacking contentment, which is shame. Now with that root
[00:01:53] unearthed, she's been able to extend love, grace and presence
[00:01:58] to herself and others in a way she never knew possible. Her
[00:02:03] connection to her husband of 16 years and two children has
[00:02:06] felt more solid and intimate. Even the care and attention she
[00:02:10] delivered to her pediatric cancer patients and their
[00:02:13] families has been impacted. As she has transitioned out of
[00:02:17] full time physical therapy work, she now has opened herself up
[00:02:20] to hold space for women and especially moms to on earth
[00:02:24] their own deep limiting beliefs that are keeping them stuck
[00:02:28] disconnected and overwhelmed. And through this space holding
[00:02:32] these individuals have been given space to feel more accept
[00:02:35] all parts of themselves and step into their full authentic
[00:02:38] self. So if you can't already imagine Amanda as a powerhouse
[00:02:43] and like such a soft, beautiful, wonderful human being. So let's
[00:02:48] go ahead and get into it.
[00:02:50] Hey there, and welcome to heal with grace. I'm your host,
[00:02:53] Grace Secker, and I'm a holistic licensed therapist and
[00:02:56] nervous system coach who believes that the chronic and
[00:02:58] often unseen symptoms you're living with are a sign of
[00:03:01] something deeper going on. A sign that your nervous system
[00:03:04] needs attention. In each episode, I'll share the science
[00:03:08] behind the most common chronic health disorders, plus
[00:03:11] holistic health tips using mental, physical and spiritual
[00:03:14] practices. You'll hear what I've learned in my journey and the
[00:03:17] true stories from our trusted guests. So you can feel less
[00:03:20] alone in your experience and give yourself grace no matter
[00:03:23] what you're going through. So without further ado, settle in
[00:03:27] and get cozy. It's time to heal with grace.
[00:03:30] Hello, Amanda. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm
[00:03:34] excited about our conversation today.
[00:03:36] Totally pumped. Let's do it.
[00:03:39] We're gonna go a little bit of a different direction than
[00:03:42] they're not totally different than what I normally go on here,
[00:03:44] but more in depth in terms of what does it actually mean to
[00:03:48] not only have repressed emotion, but what does it also mean
[00:03:51] to be with it to explain it especially as women? I know
[00:03:54] that you specialize a lot in helping women postpartum work
[00:03:59] with and move through some of those. So can you speak to
[00:04:02] that a little bit? Like what is what is it that you're
[00:04:05] really helping people do right now?
[00:04:06] Yeah, I think first and foremost, it's helping women that
[00:04:10] are in a space that I was 10 years ago. And that's feeling
[00:04:15] really, really lost in the sea of emotions that really, the
[00:04:21] fact of the matter is, had always been prior to having
[00:04:24] kids but was amplified and elevated once I had had my
[00:04:27] first. And I remember actually like the day that the
[00:04:33] postpartum rage and anger really surfaced. I was driving
[00:04:38] down near our neighborhood. It was like, somewhat of like
[00:04:42] feeding time, nap time, screaming child in the back. Aren't
[00:04:46] all of you parents don't have talking about one hand in the
[00:04:48] backseat with the passi or some sort of toy or something
[00:04:51] trying to keep him awake or happy. And I remember this
[00:04:55] like surge of sensation a heat like I've never felt
[00:04:58] before. And I was like, that's interesting. And then I
[00:05:02] looked at the like dashboard or whatever of our car. And it
[00:05:06] was June 25th, which was six months to the day after my
[00:05:10] son was born. And I was like, Oh, is this what I think it is?
[00:05:14] And so from there, it really started this journey of being
[00:05:19] with some really, really elevated parts of myself
[00:05:22] that I felt like partially weren't me, but also very
[00:05:25] much felt like me a very visceral swirl of
[00:05:30] sensations. And I mean, I'll be honest, I in that space had no
[00:05:35] idea what to do, who to talk to about it. And it wasn't until
[00:05:40] he was five. And I had my second kid that I really was met
[00:05:47] with the work that I'm doing now, that really allowed me to
[00:05:50] like hold access, turn up, turn down, move through all of
[00:05:55] that that I was present to, which was I learned not just
[00:05:58] about hormones, it's about so much more than that.
[00:06:01] Can you explain what you mean by there were parts of me coming
[00:06:05] up, but as you know, they weren't necessarily me, but
[00:06:08] there are parts of me like, what's the difference between
[00:06:10] what's you and what you're feeling?
[00:06:12] Yeah. So and this can mean a lot of different things for a
[00:06:15] lot of different people, especially in the work that
[00:06:17] we've been in. So what I'm going to share is that from
[00:06:21] my experience on that June 25th, swirl time is so
[00:06:26] weird. Was that 2015? Oh my God, that's wild. So it's 10 years
[00:06:33] ago. I think I said that earlier, is that myself and other
[00:06:37] women that enter in this space of whether it's mom rage that
[00:06:41] comes out because of postpartum depression or anxiety or
[00:06:44] whatever it is, a lot of those women, if not all of them
[00:06:47] share, this doesn't feel like me. And there were parts of me
[00:06:51] that were like, I mean, I know that I'm fiery and I
[00:06:54] know that I'm, you know, can be brash and like passionate and
[00:06:58] just out there. But like this feels like a little something
[00:07:01] extra is this me. And so it, it really was all of me. But I
[00:07:06] didn't realize that. And I think a lot of women feel like
[00:07:09] there's a detachment from this is me and an ownership of
[00:07:12] that, because it's scary. It is this, this white hot
[00:07:16] rage, this burning sensation in the body is like, ooh, like
[00:07:21] if I don't own that, maybe it'll go away, you know,
[00:07:23] like if I free like the raccoon, if I freeze, maybe it'll go
[00:07:26] away. And it's, you know, that we know that that doesn't
[00:07:29] necessarily happen. Or if we try to do that, there are other
[00:07:32] consequence to it. So really to differentiate it was all
[00:07:36] me, but it wasn't just the hormones and it wasn't just
[00:07:39] the anger or the anxiety around, is my kid going to
[00:07:42] cry more? Is he going to get off the schedule? It was so
[00:07:46] many other limiting beliefs and layered patterns and
[00:07:50] energy that I had taken on that was now really coming
[00:07:53] out in my motherhood journey.
[00:07:56] Yeah, and we're not, I mean, to your point, there's a lot of
[00:07:59] that probably that's underneath the surface that we were
[00:08:01] never learned. We never taught like how to express. And if
[00:08:04] we were, if we did, we see things on TV or in society
[00:08:08] of that's the crazy person, that's the emotional
[00:08:10] woman. That's the woman that's like doesn't have it
[00:08:12] all under control. Right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so
[00:08:17] there's a lot of like unpacking that there's a lot of
[00:08:20] like unraveling ourself from that. I think the majority
[00:08:24] of the complexity that we add on to the already tense
[00:08:27] situation is I have to figure this out right now. This
[00:08:31] this thing needs to be put in a bow and a box or a shelf
[00:08:36] or a closet. Right now, there is no time no space for
[00:08:40] this. And I think that honestly escalates some of
[00:08:43] the intensity of the sensations that we feel because I as a
[00:08:47] type A rigid overachieving individual was like, there's a
[00:08:52] problem. I will solve this. Like I've I've got this and
[00:08:55] I'll do it all on my own. And I don't need to ask any help
[00:08:58] for it. You know, you see all of the stories and the
[00:09:00] patterning coming out just in that alone. And so yeah, it
[00:09:04] was it was definitely a journey of beginning to open up a
[00:09:08] little bitty box that again, like took five years to
[00:09:13] get to this space where I was actually, you know, learning
[00:09:15] the things that I needed to and feeling safe enough to move
[00:09:18] energy and emotion. But it's for everybody, I'd imagine that
[00:09:22] it's very unsettling at first. Very unsettling.
[00:09:26] It is. I mean, for any, any person, any woman that is
[00:09:31] experiencing any kind of rage or anger or unmet emotion
[00:09:35] underneath that's coming out. But I would assume and I
[00:09:37] thank you for speaking to this. Obviously, I'm not
[00:09:39] a mother. So I don't know this. I can only grasp what
[00:09:41] it might feel like or the situation that you can't
[00:09:47] feel that right, because you don't have the time, you
[00:09:49] don't have the resources you're caring for someone else. And
[00:09:52] maybe it's too scary for the family to understand. So can
[00:09:54] you speak to that as like the layers that come with
[00:09:57] being a mother and learning how to feel all of that?
[00:10:01] Maybe some guilt, maybe, you know, whatever is
[00:10:03] associated with it.
[00:10:05] Yeah. And I think that if anything we start with
[00:10:09] is the fact that there's a lot of things that we as women
[00:10:13] have been allowed or given permission to feel like, oh,
[00:10:17] we can be, you know, just like so laxadaisical and we can
[00:10:21] be, you know, kind of the maiden and we can be sad
[00:10:24] and we can be very emotional and we can be very
[00:10:27] connected to our heart. But by God, like anger and
[00:10:31] frustration, rage even, like all hail no, like women
[00:10:36] weren't that no, you're, like you said, you're crazy,
[00:10:40] you're unhinged, you're too much. And so I think that part of
[00:10:45] the compounding effect of what happens with things that go on
[00:10:49] and postpartum seasons of life is that we are met with
[00:10:54] these parts that we have not given our self permission to
[00:10:58] feel have not been modeled, but as a whole are very much
[00:11:03] not encouraged to tap into because what would happen if
[00:11:07] she got mad? What if she throws that? Oh my gosh, is she
[00:11:09] unfit to be a mother? Like, are is to CPS going to come and
[00:11:13] like, take away the kid? There's a lot of like real true
[00:11:16] story about being a woman that is able to touch that and
[00:11:22] harness that and move that energy. And so for me, it was
[00:11:25] more along the lines of I've got this, like I've done
[00:11:28] everything else in my life on my own. So I don't need any
[00:11:31] help in this. But for a lot of women and a lot of clients
[00:11:34] have shared like, I felt like if I let that out, there would
[00:11:37] be no putting it back in, which we know is not the point to
[00:11:40] put it back in. But there's a lot of fear of an actual
[00:11:45] undoing and the consequences or the repercussions of that.
[00:11:49] And so I want to extend the utmost empathy for women to
[00:11:54] understand that like, above all else, things like anger
[00:11:57] and frustration are not ones that feel readily available to
[00:12:02] us. And that's what I feel like that there is this mounting
[00:12:06] shift that's happening as we talk more about postpartum
[00:12:09] depression, postpartum anxiety. And even just I always get
[00:12:12] this wrong, I said PPMD or PMMD, or the double D, you
[00:12:16] know, I should have known it was a double D, not a double
[00:12:18] M, not a double D. Yeah, so it's, it's one of those
[00:12:22] things where even in that, like we are continuing to
[00:12:25] open up more and share experiences, but a lot of
[00:12:28] that is rooted in things that women just aren't supposed to
[00:12:31] feel, or they're labeled something if they do feel
[00:12:34] that. And that was a little bit of my experience, but
[00:12:39] more I was on the hyperindependence, I've got
[00:12:41] this, you know. Yeah, and I'm assuming kind, I mean, I
[00:12:44] think you said a little bit of this that there's an
[00:12:46] element of, yeah, if I let it go, if I feel it, if I
[00:12:49] let it out of the box, it, I'll be out of control,
[00:12:53] right? I'll feel a lot of control, not know what to
[00:12:55] do with it. And a lot of people listening to this are
[00:12:58] very type A, very like, need this to go a certain way
[00:13:01] and feel really out of control in their lives. And so
[00:13:03] they're trying to control everything possible, which
[00:13:05] means suppressing emotion. So this is really on par with
[00:13:08] everyone listening. My version of that to speak to
[00:13:11] that is more so instead of accessing frustration and
[00:13:15] anger that feels really edgy. It's at first in my
[00:13:19] journey, it was accessing vulnerability and softness
[00:13:22] because I felt that if I, if I opened myself up to the
[00:13:26] true pain and hurt that was within all of the unmet
[00:13:29] needs that I would fall apart into a puddle. And how
[00:13:33] can a puddle that has two kids and is, you know, like
[00:13:38] star students and, you know, star employee, like, how
[00:13:42] am I going to pick myself up from this mush? And so
[00:13:45] I felt like it would be my undoing as well, but in
[00:13:48] another vein of feeling. So it, it spans the gamut, but it
[00:13:53] just is it's, which is your kryptonite, you know?
[00:13:57] How did you come to realize you needed to open that or to
[00:14:01] be maybe a little bit in the more vulnerability or
[00:14:04] softness? Because I can imagine, I mean, I've had
[00:14:06] plenty of clients be like, well, I don't even know what
[00:14:08] you mean by that. Like how did you come to
[00:14:11] understand that?
[00:14:12] I was more tired of my own bullshit. I was more
[00:14:15] tired of like, looking at myself, be reactive to
[00:14:20] my kids and looking at myself being distant and
[00:14:23] disconnected to my partner. And I was just, I was
[00:14:26] tired of it. I was so overtly tired of it, to the
[00:14:30] point of like, kind of discussed that it fueled
[00:14:33] me into I am less fearful about the undoing
[00:14:36] now, and more fearful about what will happen
[00:14:38] into five, 10 years if I don't shift this. And
[00:14:42] so it was, I am someone that doesn't, I
[00:14:45] mean, I had chronic stomach issues when I was
[00:14:47] younger, but into adulthood, I didn't
[00:14:50] necessarily identify with any sort of like chronic
[00:14:52] pain journey. But I think even those that are on
[00:14:56] that journey, they get to a point where they're
[00:14:58] like, I'm so ready for this to be done. And so
[00:15:01] whatever it is, like I am releasing fear of
[00:15:05] whatever that is on the other side. And I'm
[00:15:07] just surrendering to like, I need something
[00:15:08] different. And that was very much like my
[00:15:11] experience.
[00:15:12] That is one, yes, 1000% true. It doesn't matter
[00:15:16] what you're experiencing. There, there comes a
[00:15:18] point in journey, in a journey of learning
[00:15:21] about yourself and going through something
[00:15:23] really hard that yeah, you're just like, I
[00:15:25] can't keep going with it like this, right? I
[00:15:28] am something has to shift. So okay, cool. I'm
[00:15:30] open, you know, scary, but like, all right,
[00:15:33] what do you do? Yeah, 1000%. Yeah. Okay. Take
[00:15:37] us through how that looked after learning
[00:15:39] about or being with like vulnerability and
[00:15:42] that space. Yeah, I already had the anger
[00:15:45] and frustration down pat, like I could express
[00:15:48] that, but it was more of like, can you do that
[00:15:50] in an embodied way? And you can you remove
[00:15:53] the place of projection and do it from like
[00:15:56] a very grounded heart centered space,
[00:15:58] right? Which is something that we'll get
[00:16:00] to later on potentially. But for me, the
[00:16:03] first steps were surrendering to the
[00:16:06] ability to be soft, to be vulnerable, to
[00:16:08] be held, to be seen, to be loved, like by
[00:16:11] others, by myself. And so really in the
[00:16:15] program that I did, which was based around
[00:16:18] somatic inner child work, it allowed me
[00:16:21] to drop into my heart, i.e. little Amanda's
[00:16:24] experience and everything that she has
[00:16:26] traversed in her life. And I think that
[00:16:29] the ability to grow in my capacity to
[00:16:31] feel deeply what was within my heart
[00:16:34] allowed me to also feel and hold very
[00:16:37] deeply and solidly that anger and
[00:16:40] frustration that was also there, because
[00:16:42] it wasn't just like, just like, it's not
[00:16:44] always about the dishwasher. It's not
[00:16:46] really always about the anger and
[00:16:47] frustration. It's about the, I'm not
[00:16:50] getting this right. I have to do this
[00:16:51] all on my own. Like, no one's going to
[00:16:53] be there to help me. No one can do it
[00:16:55] as good as I can. If I ask for help
[00:16:57] on the failure, like it's all of the
[00:16:59] underneath that really opened me up to
[00:17:02] say like, wow, like I, this really
[00:17:05] isn't always just about anger and
[00:17:07] frustration. It's about all the hurt
[00:17:08] underneath that. And that, I think in
[00:17:10] and of itself allowed some of the charge
[00:17:12] of the anger and frustration to cycle
[00:17:14] through and be let go of and other
[00:17:17] things be planted. But that was really
[00:17:19] my initial beginnings of that journey
[00:17:22] of being able to be with my energy, be
[00:17:24] with my emotions and be able to learn
[00:17:26] to like both contain and express in a
[00:17:29] really like grounded way, both of
[00:17:30] those things. Yeah, that makes sense
[00:17:32] because yeah, anger and frustration
[00:17:34] are not, they're real emotions to be
[00:17:37] expressed, but at the same time, there's
[00:17:39] an underneath, right? This is
[00:17:41] sometimes like controversial, but
[00:17:43] anger can be, I guess I'll say can be
[00:17:45] a secondary emotion, right? So what's
[00:17:47] really that on my need underneath
[00:17:48] the motion, which I think is what
[00:17:49] you're getting to. Yeah. And I felt
[00:17:52] like that early on in the journey,
[00:17:54] absolutely what you just said, I
[00:17:55] would actually put money on. Now,
[00:17:58] when you tend to the underneath, then
[00:18:00] the anger is fucking anger. The
[00:18:02] frustration is that, right? And so
[00:18:05] but you have to do the underneath to
[00:18:07] know what's actually there and what's
[00:18:09] not. And I think for some people,
[00:18:12] because I had already had a somewhat
[00:18:14] of a comfortable access to those fiery
[00:18:17] parts of me, once the underneath
[00:18:20] was not dealt with or handled, but
[00:18:22] like held that the top part, the
[00:18:26] anger and frustration became a
[00:18:27] superpower, it became a gift,
[00:18:29] because it was accessing my agency,
[00:18:32] my autonomy, my will, my need, all
[00:18:36] of those things, because women would
[00:18:37] come up to me what even before I was
[00:18:39] in the coaching space and they're
[00:18:39] like, you don't understand, like,
[00:18:41] how do you advocate for yourself
[00:18:42] so much? How do you speak up? Like
[00:18:43] what it's so cool? That is a by
[00:18:45] product of being able to express
[00:18:48] anger and frustration, because it
[00:18:50] is a it's a power center. It's a
[00:18:51] it's a part of you that can be
[00:18:54] used for expression of I'm angry
[00:18:56] and I'm frustrated, or I'm also
[00:18:58] like, righteously meeting this
[00:19:00] thing, or this is what I'm really
[00:19:02] feeling called to do. Like they are
[00:19:04] interchangeable, but we have siloed
[00:19:06] them into anger and frustration
[00:19:08] and whatever else this is that we
[00:19:10] want to like hold up as as the
[00:19:14] greatness of like, you know, whether
[00:19:16] it's focus or passion or whatever it
[00:19:17] may be. So that very much
[00:19:19] interplayed in my journey. And I
[00:19:22] only recently, when I met you,
[00:19:24] started to see more and more women
[00:19:26] that had this, oh, I want to be able
[00:19:29] to stand firm in my like passion
[00:19:31] and power and mission and purpose.
[00:19:34] But like, I can't I can't hold it.
[00:19:36] Why can't I hold it? And it's what
[00:19:39] I'm finding with my own clients.
[00:19:41] And then what I heard some people
[00:19:42] echo in our spaces was anger
[00:19:45] and frustration feel a little edgy
[00:19:46] for me, feel like that's that's
[00:19:48] not that's not available to me.
[00:19:49] And and that's really the power of
[00:19:52] the higher levels of being able
[00:19:54] to access that, right?
[00:19:56] Yeah, so for reference, Amanda and
[00:19:57] I met at a retreat called Unbound
[00:20:00] of Somatic Expression, learning
[00:20:03] how to be with what's there
[00:20:05] and a very like body based way
[00:20:07] and playing with the different parts.
[00:20:09] Best little summary I think I can give.
[00:20:11] Yeah, beautiful summary.
[00:20:12] Yeah, you did great.
[00:20:13] And I'll totally echo that or
[00:20:15] resonate with what you said.
[00:20:17] Like I've known I've been kind
[00:20:18] of working with anger, especially
[00:20:19] understanding that repressed anger
[00:20:21] is a huge part of how our body
[00:20:23] takes on like chronic illness and pain.
[00:20:25] And so I've worked with it.
[00:20:28] But yeah, there are sometimes where I'm
[00:20:29] like, I know that's underneath,
[00:20:31] but there's just such a blanket on it.
[00:20:34] I don't know what to do with it until
[00:20:35] I really it's almost like sometimes
[00:20:37] it's forceful out.
[00:20:38] Sometimes it's not.
[00:20:39] It's like very much so there.
[00:20:41] But I do think that's a very
[00:20:42] common experience with women.
[00:20:44] I think for many different reasons,
[00:20:46] it's layered, right?
[00:20:47] So when you've been recognizing
[00:20:49] how does this shift or maybe not
[00:20:52] shift, but like, how are you
[00:20:53] speaking to it more?
[00:20:53] What's happened with that realization
[00:20:55] or what you've been seeing?
[00:20:56] Well, I'll speak to my own journey
[00:20:57] personally. So I had this gift.
[00:21:00] I have this gift of being able to
[00:21:02] access and drum up fire and like
[00:21:04] be able to use that for good and
[00:21:06] equal. And, you know, it's
[00:21:08] it's something where during my journey,
[00:21:10] probably in the last year, I was in
[00:21:12] the middle of a breath work session.
[00:21:13] And I had this this awareness
[00:21:16] drop in of like, you don't have
[00:21:17] to use the fire anymore, or you
[00:21:19] can you can put down the fire.
[00:21:21] And what I was finding is that
[00:21:22] like that was, I mean, I was
[00:21:25] using it as a protector.
[00:21:26] And so even more, I got to notice
[00:21:29] that like, where was there an
[00:21:31] invitation almost in this second
[00:21:33] iteration of my journey, my healing
[00:21:35] journey of like, where can you
[00:21:36] continue to choose softness over
[00:21:38] frustration and anger?
[00:21:40] Not that we're bypassing, but
[00:21:42] like, where are you amping things
[00:21:44] up and and lighting a match
[00:21:47] where it's not just just like
[00:21:49] lean, like lean back, like it's
[00:21:51] okay. And so again, for some
[00:21:53] people that may feel very esoteric
[00:21:55] and like, I'm not even close to
[00:21:56] there. And I'm not asking you to
[00:21:58] be there. But what I'm telling you
[00:22:00] is that if you are someone that
[00:22:02] is listening to this and identifies
[00:22:03] with the fire, you and your journey
[00:22:05] get to start to shift your
[00:22:08] relationship to it, right.
[00:22:09] And and the really, really in the
[00:22:11] gifts of it, then in just the
[00:22:13] like, I have this blow torch and
[00:22:15] I'm going to use it, right.
[00:22:16] Like, that's fun to play with.
[00:22:17] But like, at a point, it just
[00:22:19] kind of gets old and you're
[00:22:19] like, OK, I'll just use that
[00:22:21] when I need it. You know, yeah.
[00:22:23] So that that's been personally
[00:22:24] what I feel like I've danced with.
[00:22:27] Yeah, I think a lot of time when
[00:22:29] we discover something, a healing
[00:22:31] principle or tool or something
[00:22:32] that we're trying to cultivate
[00:22:33] very natural for humans to swing
[00:22:35] from one end of the spectrum to
[00:22:36] the other, right. It's like, we
[00:22:37] don't feel any anger. OK, we're
[00:22:39] going to feel all the time and
[00:22:40] use all the time and
[00:22:41] however that looks for you.
[00:22:43] Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's like
[00:22:44] you're explaining kind of coming
[00:22:45] back to this balance of OK,
[00:22:47] what does that look like actually
[00:22:48] for me? How do I want to be
[00:22:50] in this? And also, do I am I using
[00:22:52] it all the time? Because I'm like
[00:22:52] really attached to it right now.
[00:22:54] Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:55] And the other thing that's coming
[00:22:56] up for me and this was the
[00:22:57] experience in more
[00:23:00] of like our retreat setting is
[00:23:01] that I can bring fire to
[00:23:03] my advocacy for my wants and
[00:23:05] needs. I can I can bring it
[00:23:07] very easily to the coaching
[00:23:09] space. I can so I can hold
[00:23:11] big energy. Like I can do it
[00:23:12] in all these areas. But what
[00:23:14] I learned at the retreat is
[00:23:15] that your physical
[00:23:17] connection and your intimacy
[00:23:18] with others, especially your
[00:23:20] partner, where's the fire there?
[00:23:23] And it's being able to again
[00:23:24] access and use different parts
[00:23:26] of yourself as a conduit for
[00:23:28] that fire to be a part of that
[00:23:30] experience. Instead of it just
[00:23:31] being like I only use my fire
[00:23:33] and my anger and my frustration
[00:23:35] and that passion within for
[00:23:37] this to say you didn't load the
[00:23:38] dishwasher right. Like no, it
[00:23:40] gets to be lots of different
[00:23:41] things. Some women at first
[00:23:43] they're just cultivating a
[00:23:44] fire to be able to share
[00:23:46] their wants and needs with
[00:23:47] their partner around helping
[00:23:49] with the kids and doing the
[00:23:50] laundry and blah, blah, blah,
[00:23:51] blah. Whereas then they get to
[00:23:53] once that feels solid, maybe
[00:23:55] use that in the workplace or
[00:23:56] maybe use it with their family
[00:23:58] and their mother-in-law, you
[00:23:59] know, like, or then it gets
[00:24:02] to go these higher order
[00:24:04] opportunities like intimacy
[00:24:06] or friendships or whatever it
[00:24:08] may be. So that's the other
[00:24:09] thing is that anger and
[00:24:10] frustration or that inner fire
[00:24:12] is what I call it is so
[00:24:13] dynamic. It's not just in
[00:24:15] this one again silo of a
[00:24:17] piss and I'm going to let you
[00:24:18] know about it, you know.
[00:24:19] Okay, let's break that down
[00:24:20] more. I think this is going to
[00:24:21] be really helpful. So when
[00:24:23] we're talking about fire,
[00:24:25] explain, even just explain
[00:24:27] that a little bit more. How
[00:24:28] what are we saying when
[00:24:29] we're cultivating it and using
[00:24:31] it in terms of asking for
[00:24:32] our needs and wants? What does
[00:24:33] that look like? Yeah. So I
[00:24:35] think that what's starting to
[00:24:36] come online for me is that
[00:24:37] fire is that aliveness,
[00:24:40] but it feels differently than
[00:24:42] the aliveness of like
[00:24:43] gratitude or love or even the
[00:24:46] aliveness of sadness and
[00:24:47] grief, right? So the energy
[00:24:50] of fire is again, it has
[00:24:52] sensation to it. Everyone is
[00:24:53] different. Some people are
[00:24:54] their extremities, their
[00:24:55] face, their chest, whatever it
[00:24:56] is. It typically will have
[00:25:00] verbiage to it, you know, or
[00:25:02] it will have some tone,
[00:25:04] like tonality, like a
[00:25:05] sound to it. And each
[00:25:07] person is different in that
[00:25:08] too. It could be a roar, or
[00:25:09] it could be like a fuck
[00:25:10] you, or it could be like, I
[00:25:12] want this too. It could be
[00:25:14] anything. And you will, as
[00:25:16] you start to tap into that,
[00:25:18] notice what your individual
[00:25:20] fire sounds like. And again,
[00:25:23] early on in your journey, it
[00:25:24] can be from a place of not
[00:25:25] victimhood, but like of like
[00:25:27] needs not getting met, wants
[00:25:29] being there, desires, see me,
[00:25:32] hear me, all of that. And in
[00:25:33] the work I do, it's very
[00:25:34] much about like holding the
[00:25:36] inner child and their
[00:25:37] experience of their fire,
[00:25:38] the tantrum. So like no
[00:25:40] one's listening to me, the
[00:25:42] like, why does anybody care
[00:25:43] about me? You know, that kind
[00:25:45] of fire. And the one caveat
[00:25:48] to to like drill this down
[00:25:49] even further is that, especially
[00:25:50] if you're starting your
[00:25:51] journey for a lot of people,
[00:25:53] my fire was already there,
[00:25:54] so I didn't necessarily have
[00:25:55] to watch it. But I've had a
[00:25:56] lot of clients that this
[00:25:57] feels so edgy to them, that
[00:25:59] what is helpful is to watch
[00:26:01] it first. You don't have to
[00:26:02] feel it. But do you see
[00:26:05] the like embers within
[00:26:06] your sternum? And like, what
[00:26:08] colors are those? And if you
[00:26:09] had to feel them, or you
[00:26:10] imagine what they would be
[00:26:11] like, what do you imagine
[00:26:12] that they would feel like?
[00:26:13] And so you're creating this
[00:26:14] separation that is allowing
[00:26:17] yourself to view and be
[00:26:18] exposed to fire without fully
[00:26:20] like jumping in it. You know
[00:26:22] what I mean? And that for a
[00:26:24] lot of people, their system
[00:26:25] only has so much capacity at
[00:26:27] first. And so if that's you
[00:26:28] where you're like, I don't
[00:26:29] even know where to start on
[00:26:30] this. Notice if you can just
[00:26:32] watch the fire, just watch
[00:26:34] it. Notice if it feels
[00:26:35] safe to watch it. Notice if
[00:26:37] you can amplify what you're
[00:26:38] watching. And then notice
[00:26:39] if you can dip your toe into
[00:26:40] like, oh, I feel a little bit
[00:26:42] of that like little hot
[00:26:44] marble right here. Just
[00:26:46] watching it. That's all I
[00:26:47] wanted to do today is just
[00:26:48] kind of feel that searing
[00:26:49] right there. And then that's
[00:26:50] it and disconnect. So that's
[00:26:53] what I would say to like drill
[00:26:54] down more of like fire
[00:26:56] aliveness, what that looks
[00:26:57] like or can feel like in the
[00:26:58] body. But for everybody, it
[00:27:00] is like so different.
[00:27:01] Also, if you're listening
[00:27:02] to this, you're like, I
[00:27:03] just don't have fire. Everyone
[00:27:04] does. Everyone does. Yes.
[00:27:06] Yes. I'll share a little
[00:27:08] bit to help give a little
[00:27:10] context to at our retreat. I
[00:27:12] was really, I didn't had no
[00:27:14] idea that's what I was going to
[00:27:14] work with. But I was working
[00:27:16] with fire. And I was in a
[00:27:20] collapsed response on the
[00:27:21] first couple days, meaning
[00:27:23] like my parasympathetic was
[00:27:25] down. And for me that looked
[00:27:27] like sickness, fatigue, with
[00:27:29] a lot of people here, that's
[00:27:30] what it looks like for them.
[00:27:31] And I had never made the
[00:27:33] realization like I was in
[00:27:35] my softness, right? I was
[00:27:36] like, okay, I'm taking
[00:27:37] care of myself. And I'm
[00:27:38] like, you know, I'm okay. I'm
[00:27:41] allowing. Actually, I'm not
[00:27:43] okay, but it's okay not to be
[00:27:44] okay, right? Like I'm, I'm
[00:27:45] here. I'm soft. I'm allowing
[00:27:47] what I learned was actually I
[00:27:49] needed to meet myself with
[00:27:50] some of that fire. And I think
[00:27:52] it's really helpful to talk
[00:27:54] about right now, because it's
[00:27:54] not talked about enough. I
[00:27:56] mean, I haven't talked about
[00:27:57] enough, that yeah, sure, we
[00:27:59] need to take care of
[00:27:59] ourselves. But at the same
[00:28:00] time, especially when we're
[00:28:03] in that shutdown response, we
[00:28:04] need energy. We need some
[00:28:05] fire. We need something to
[00:28:07] be met. And so going off of
[00:28:10] what you said of how can we
[00:28:11] just imagine a little bit of
[00:28:12] ember within us? Because when
[00:28:14] we're in that shutdown place,
[00:28:15] like, that's really hard to
[00:28:16] connect with like the fire.
[00:28:18] But it's needed. So the
[00:28:20] visualization of it, what does
[00:28:22] that mean to be with the fire
[00:28:23] within your body? Bring it
[00:28:25] somehow into your maybe
[00:28:29] wherever you're feeling the
[00:28:29] most sensation, right? And
[00:28:31] it's not about burning it
[00:28:32] out. It's not about burning
[00:28:34] like whatever's in there,
[00:28:35] like making it go away. It's
[00:28:36] cultivating it, right? Like
[00:28:38] integrating it. That's what kind
[00:28:39] of came up with me as you were
[00:28:41] talking, because yeah,
[00:28:42] sometimes we don't know what
[00:28:43] that means to feel it. Yeah.
[00:28:45] But to riff off of that, I'm
[00:28:48] so glad that you're bringing
[00:28:48] this up. In fact, I was so
[00:28:49] afraid I was gonna forget it
[00:28:50] that I wrote it down. So a
[00:28:52] lot of what I'm gonna say
[00:28:54] women, a lot of what women
[00:28:55] can struggle with is a lack
[00:28:58] of being able to cultivate
[00:28:59] the masculine within their
[00:29:01] body. And so for you, I
[00:29:03] imagine in the first couple
[00:29:04] days, there was no structure
[00:29:07] to say go play in the fire.
[00:29:09] There was just the softness,
[00:29:10] right? And so part of what
[00:29:12] you get to do and part of
[00:29:14] what I just described, though
[00:29:16] I did not use the word
[00:29:17] masculine, is to watch and
[00:29:19] to hold space is to be in
[00:29:21] the masculine. And you need
[00:29:22] both. And so until you, your
[00:29:25] body feels like it has enough
[00:29:27] capacity to hold, to
[00:29:29] watch, until then, it will
[00:29:31] not feel or be in the
[00:29:33] feminine of that fire. It
[00:29:34] just will not. Or if it
[00:29:35] does and it has no
[00:29:36] containment, you are going to
[00:29:37] burn it down, going to burn
[00:29:39] the whole damn thing down.
[00:29:40] And then you're going to
[00:29:40] have some conversations
[00:29:41] that you get to have. But
[00:29:43] that is something too,
[00:29:45] because my energy is
[00:29:46] naturally masculine, I
[00:29:47] think that or it leans
[00:29:49] towards that masculine. It's
[00:29:50] something to where it's
[00:29:51] easier for me to cultivate
[00:29:53] that fire because I know
[00:29:54] that it will stay there,
[00:29:55] right? Or I know that I
[00:29:56] have the ability for it to
[00:29:57] stay there. And for you
[00:30:00] in what you just shared is
[00:30:01] like, when you realize
[00:30:03] that, when you're like,
[00:30:05] like, no, like I can do
[00:30:06] that, that sitting up,
[00:30:08] though you didn't access
[00:30:10] anger and frustration or
[00:30:11] fire yet, you had access
[00:30:13] to your personal power and
[00:30:15] agency to create
[00:30:16] something, right? So that
[00:30:19] is something that's also
[00:30:20] you get to access and is
[00:30:22] needed. And it's, it's
[00:30:23] funny that the spaces
[00:30:25] that will show up, or the
[00:30:27] spaces that that will
[00:30:28] show up, because I
[00:30:30] actually just did a
[00:30:31] post on this, but I
[00:30:31] had an unprompted THC journey
[00:30:35] at a bachelorette party at a
[00:30:36] bar. I thought it was CBD
[00:30:38] and it was THC. Again, we'll
[00:30:41] never make that mistake
[00:30:42] again. But something that I
[00:30:43] noticed in that journey is
[00:30:45] that in the beginning stages
[00:30:47] of me freaking out and
[00:30:49] having a really hard time
[00:30:50] surrendering control,
[00:30:51] surrendering the masculine,
[00:30:53] the structure, all the
[00:30:55] things. I got to a point
[00:30:57] where I was being held by
[00:30:58] someone. And I was like, I
[00:31:01] know, I know all these tools
[00:31:02] and I can't, I can't use the
[00:31:03] tools. Why can't I use the
[00:31:04] tools? And then all of a
[00:31:05] sudden there was a little,
[00:31:06] and I was like, no, I know
[00:31:08] how to do this. And so I
[00:31:10] started to use the tools,
[00:31:11] but it's not until you, you
[00:31:12] create that inner fire of
[00:31:14] empowerment of I've got
[00:31:15] this of I'm capable that
[00:31:17] you are even able to
[00:31:19] access or hold anything
[00:31:20] that's uncomfortable to feel.
[00:31:21] Right. So this is, we're
[00:31:23] talking about anger and
[00:31:24] frustration, but it applies
[00:31:26] to anything. It applies to
[00:31:27] me, even in the, oh, if I
[00:31:29] feel emotion or if I feel
[00:31:30] sadness, if I feel vulnerability,
[00:31:32] I'll fall apart. It's the same
[00:31:33] thing. It's just creating that
[00:31:34] masculine container around that
[00:31:35] one emotion. So even if you're
[00:31:37] not resonating with anger and
[00:31:38] frustration, whatever emotion
[00:31:40] you do feel edgy with, like
[00:31:42] that is still gets to be
[00:31:43] there. Yes. Ah, thank you
[00:31:45] because you're right. If we
[00:31:47] don't feel sometimes we use
[00:31:48] the word safe, right, like
[00:31:49] contained to be able to feel
[00:31:51] something. Yeah, we're not
[00:31:53] going to be able to go there
[00:31:53] or yeah, it'll completely
[00:31:55] shut us down or we'll
[00:31:56] collapse, we'll burn through
[00:31:57] it. Right. And actually I
[00:31:59] realized that's what I was
[00:32:00] doing. I actually have a lot of
[00:32:01] fire within me, but I've been
[00:32:03] either going off like
[00:32:05] firefighter fire and then I
[00:32:06] totally burn out and collapse
[00:32:08] or I have nothing at all. Or
[00:32:10] you know, I'm like, I
[00:32:11] realized that I was like, oh,
[00:32:12] that's what's been happening.
[00:32:14] I'm just burning through it,
[00:32:15] like running crazy, instead of
[00:32:17] learning how to be with it
[00:32:19] and contain and understand
[00:32:21] what that feels like. So yeah,
[00:32:23] we need those structures we
[00:32:24] need the containers. So
[00:32:26] actually, can you speak to
[00:32:27] what that means? Like what
[00:32:28] that looks like? What's the
[00:32:29] structure? What's the container?
[00:32:30] What's the masculine structure?
[00:32:32] Yeah. So I mean, it can be and
[00:32:33] again, I hate to be vague
[00:32:34] because I am such a rigid person
[00:32:36] that like, give me the answer.
[00:32:37] But it can be so different.
[00:32:39] So a masculine practice is
[00:32:40] at least is at minimum, just
[00:32:43] sitting and watching something,
[00:32:44] creating a space for you to
[00:32:46] feel or for you to sense
[00:32:49] and reflect on something.
[00:32:50] It can also be as easy as,
[00:32:53] you know, when you are like
[00:32:54] burning it down or you're in
[00:32:56] the midst of that and you've
[00:32:57] kind of gotten ahead of
[00:32:58] yourself, being able to sense
[00:33:00] the need to turn it back down
[00:33:02] and the need of like bringing
[00:33:03] in that container. And so it's
[00:33:05] not like you just walking around
[00:33:07] with a bucket like, oh, what can
[00:33:08] I create in this? It's the
[00:33:10] noticing of like reeling it
[00:33:12] back. Ooh, like too much.
[00:33:15] And you will start to, I don't
[00:33:16] know if you feel this, but
[00:33:18] there's times, especially like
[00:33:19] during ovulation and during
[00:33:22] late Lutial that I have this
[00:33:24] fire that's usually a little
[00:33:25] bit less contained or
[00:33:27] tends to get away.
[00:33:29] And it's the noticing of the
[00:33:31] jaw pain or the headache.
[00:33:33] That's like you're letting it
[00:33:35] run, you're letting it run,
[00:33:36] bring it back, bring it back.
[00:33:38] And can you cycle it within
[00:33:39] yourself? Can you move that
[00:33:41] fire within yourself instead
[00:33:43] of letting it up and out?
[00:33:45] So that's another form of
[00:33:47] like masculine containment is
[00:33:49] sensing what's needed in the
[00:33:50] space and tending to that.
[00:33:52] It's like when you're doing
[00:33:53] a fire at a campfire, the
[00:33:54] fire doesn't know, am I too
[00:33:56] big? Am I too small?
[00:33:57] Like you are the container
[00:33:59] that's like more air, more
[00:34:01] water, whatever is needed.
[00:34:02] You know, and so that's the
[00:34:03] way of the sensing of the
[00:34:05] masculine of like, OK, wait,
[00:34:07] this is we're burning a little
[00:34:08] too, too hot right now, too
[00:34:09] hot, too fast. Let's let's
[00:34:11] let's bring it back.
[00:34:11] So those are ways that you
[00:34:13] can kind of access and
[00:34:15] nurture and use the masculine.
[00:34:17] And if you have a supportive
[00:34:18] partner or supportive space,
[00:34:21] there are times where other
[00:34:22] people can hold that for
[00:34:23] you. Now that shouldn't be
[00:34:24] the norm where you're only
[00:34:26] relying on others, but it can
[00:34:28] be outsourced to others, right?
[00:34:31] And you can do that for your
[00:34:33] partner and they can do that
[00:34:34] for you. Yeah, totally.
[00:34:36] Therapist, a coach, I mean,
[00:34:38] some of the most powerful
[00:34:38] moments that I have realized
[00:34:40] that, oh, I can hold this has
[00:34:42] been in a supportive
[00:34:43] relationship with a coach or
[00:34:45] someone, a somatic space,
[00:34:46] like helping me hold that.
[00:34:48] And then I can realize, oh,
[00:34:49] I can do that, right?
[00:34:51] On my own with some of the
[00:34:52] things that are super scary
[00:34:54] and we've really pushed down.
[00:34:56] So, yeah, totally.
[00:34:57] But again, yes, agreed.
[00:34:59] We also it's important to feel
[00:35:01] that within ourselves that we
[00:35:02] can hold that, that we can do
[00:35:03] that. And so what I'm hearing
[00:35:05] is just really more about,
[00:35:06] like, keep awareness, right?
[00:35:08] Like, keeping aware of what's
[00:35:09] going on within you,
[00:35:11] within your mind, within your
[00:35:12] body, and how are you able
[00:35:14] to see whether whatever
[00:35:16] emotion you're working with,
[00:35:17] whether it is anger, fire,
[00:35:18] whether it is vulnerability,
[00:35:20] excuse me, vulnerability,
[00:35:22] sadness, it's just continuing,
[00:35:25] not just, but it is continuing
[00:35:28] to understand and just listen
[00:35:30] to your internal awareness,
[00:35:32] right? Yeah, so much power
[00:35:34] can come from that.
[00:35:35] Is that kind of what I'm hearing?
[00:35:36] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:35:38] And for your people that do
[00:35:40] have and are traversing
[00:35:42] through their chronic pain
[00:35:43] journey, it can be even
[00:35:46] as much as like you're in a
[00:35:48] space with a supportive coach,
[00:35:50] a therapist, whatever.
[00:35:51] And you notice when it's like
[00:35:52] all done, that's a form of the
[00:35:54] masculine, even though you're
[00:35:55] being held. Or like for me,
[00:35:58] if it's not late,
[00:35:59] literal and ovulatory time,
[00:36:01] when I get really passionate
[00:36:03] about something and I'm like
[00:36:04] laser focused, there is a
[00:36:07] point where I will start to
[00:36:08] get a headache or start to
[00:36:09] get something. But that's
[00:36:11] from an expansive place.
[00:36:12] The same thing holds true
[00:36:14] whether you are in a place
[00:36:15] where I am like really angry
[00:36:17] at something that's happening
[00:36:18] or someone, or I'm really
[00:36:20] using that fire and aliveness
[00:36:22] for something that I'm creating
[00:36:23] because it's the fire is both.
[00:36:26] Right. And so for those that
[00:36:28] do have these symptoms of
[00:36:30] chronic pain that come on,
[00:36:32] notice the patterns, right.
[00:36:34] Like notice that because
[00:36:36] that is also a cue for you
[00:36:38] whether you have, you know,
[00:36:39] chronic pain or not.
[00:36:40] I'm not one that identifies
[00:36:41] with that. But when those
[00:36:42] sensations come on, I'm
[00:36:43] like, oh, yeah, where's a
[00:36:44] little boundary? There's a
[00:36:45] little data point there that
[00:36:47] I get to heed. So I think
[00:36:49] I hope that that speaks more
[00:36:50] to the pain journey, too,
[00:36:52] because some of my clients that
[00:36:53] have either had chronic headaches,
[00:36:56] neck pain, shoulder pain, or
[00:36:58] pelvic pain, they have very
[00:37:00] much articulated to me. I am
[00:37:02] now starting to see the
[00:37:03] rhythms of my day and how
[00:37:06] my body is trying to tell me
[00:37:07] things that I now get to
[00:37:09] notice and to honor.
[00:37:11] Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you
[00:37:14] for saying that because it's
[00:37:14] very it is very true, right?
[00:37:16] They're messengers. And how
[00:37:18] can we look at those messengers
[00:37:19] with a sense of curiosity
[00:37:21] and awareness instead of like,
[00:37:22] oh, my gosh, why is this
[00:37:23] happening? Like, you know,
[00:37:25] beating it with that resistance
[00:37:26] and frustration, because then
[00:37:29] you can become aware of what's
[00:37:30] actually underneath and do the
[00:37:31] things that we're talking about
[00:37:33] and meeting yourself. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:37:35] Yeah. And one shift that's
[00:37:37] coming up for me that I hope
[00:37:38] is really permission giving to
[00:37:39] people is if you have
[00:37:42] some sort of like flare or
[00:37:43] symptom that comes up and it's
[00:37:46] in the vein of you expressing
[00:37:48] yourself from a really aligned
[00:37:50] powerful place or you're in a
[00:37:51] place of creativity.
[00:37:53] Hell, yeah. Like, do you know
[00:37:55] what I mean? Like you're doing.
[00:37:56] Yes, there is these these
[00:37:58] repercussions later that you
[00:38:00] that are suboptimal or less
[00:38:01] desirable. But when it comes
[00:38:04] from this place of you setting
[00:38:06] a boundary or being at an edge
[00:38:08] or creating something that you
[00:38:09] didn't feel like you could ever
[00:38:10] create, like how much more
[00:38:12] permission giving and tapping
[00:38:14] into your aliveness is that,
[00:38:16] right? So just giving that,
[00:38:19] you know, air to breathe that
[00:38:20] like, yes, I now have this
[00:38:22] flare and like, what was I
[00:38:24] just doing for myself that is
[00:38:26] really serving me for my highest
[00:38:27] and greatest like gets to be
[00:38:29] both. Yeah, exactly. There
[00:38:31] can be both because there's
[00:38:32] something there's a reason why
[00:38:33] that's coming on why some
[00:38:34] symptom or something is coming
[00:38:35] on. And sometimes it can be
[00:38:37] to push down something that's
[00:38:38] vulnerable, but actually
[00:38:39] really helpful for us. Or like
[00:38:41] you said, creativity or
[00:38:42] speaking up a need, right?
[00:38:44] Something that's a little scary,
[00:38:45] but actually really important.
[00:38:48] So yes, yeah. Yes. Yes.
[00:38:51] Yeah, we talk a lot in the work
[00:38:53] that I do around protectors.
[00:38:54] So like for me, my protectors
[00:38:57] are not making eye contact
[00:38:59] when I'm in pattern or when
[00:39:01] I'm stressed, arms crossed
[00:39:03] sideways, like closing down the
[00:39:05] system kind of using maybe a
[00:39:07] little bit of soft talk, but
[00:39:08] not a ton. And what I tell
[00:39:10] the mastery students that I
[00:39:11] help with the certification
[00:39:12] on is sometimes you're going
[00:39:14] to use those protectors for your
[00:39:16] highest and greatest. Like, you
[00:39:18] know, about a year ago when I
[00:39:19] was having a really tough
[00:39:20] conversation with my husband
[00:39:22] was my eyes averted and was my
[00:39:23] arms crossed and was I like
[00:39:25] tears streaming with a hat
[00:39:26] on? Yeah. But I was really
[00:39:28] stepping into something that
[00:39:29] was one of the most edgy
[00:39:31] things that ever done. So like
[00:39:33] letting it be both letting
[00:39:34] your body be in response to
[00:39:37] what it's trying to do while
[00:39:38] also giving it a lot of
[00:39:39] grace for just like letting
[00:39:41] it be there. You know, it's
[00:39:43] just like, yeah, it's your
[00:39:44] body. Yeah, it's supposed to
[00:39:46] be doing things. That's a
[00:39:47] really great example. Also
[00:39:48] something that I noticed
[00:39:50] myself in the past couple
[00:39:51] months. As I'm having some
[00:39:54] difficult conversations, I'll
[00:39:56] come away with it and be like,
[00:39:57] man, I was super shifty. I
[00:39:58] was looking all over the
[00:39:59] way, right? Like a man, I
[00:40:00] was like, my body was all
[00:40:02] awkward. And yeah, but I
[00:40:04] mean, it's moving through it
[00:40:05] because I was consciously
[00:40:06] showing up to that
[00:40:07] conversation of, oh, this
[00:40:08] is hard, but also I want
[00:40:09] to show up in this way and
[00:40:10] I want to voice my. Share
[00:40:12] me. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:40:15] Yeah, they're protectors.
[00:40:16] Thank you for that because
[00:40:17] protectors can look in all
[00:40:19] sort of ways, whether that's
[00:40:20] body movement, composition,
[00:40:22] symptoms, things to help
[00:40:24] protect us from what we're
[00:40:25] sharing or opening up with
[00:40:26] that might be scary.
[00:40:27] Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%.
[00:40:31] Is there anything else
[00:40:32] around just even so far what
[00:40:34] we've shared? I kind of want
[00:40:35] to take a pause that feels
[00:40:37] important. I think as just
[00:40:39] like a way of equipping people
[00:40:40] to learn more about how
[00:40:43] their anger and frustration
[00:40:45] may come out, we touched
[00:40:46] on this at the retreat that
[00:40:48] we were at is the five
[00:40:49] personality patterns by
[00:40:50] Stephen Kessler. And so each
[00:40:53] pattern has a specific
[00:40:55] expression of anger. And my
[00:40:57] anger as someone that runs
[00:40:59] rigid and aggressive may look
[00:41:01] very different than someone
[00:41:02] like you say if you tended
[00:41:04] to run a pattern of like
[00:41:05] merging or enduring or
[00:41:07] leaving or whatever. And so I
[00:41:09] think that a lot of people
[00:41:10] like to attach on to one form
[00:41:14] of expression of anger and
[00:41:16] frustration and it can look
[00:41:17] and sound and feel very
[00:41:19] different. And I think that
[00:41:21] that's very permission
[00:41:22] giving in and of itself. And
[00:41:23] so I think that over and
[00:41:25] above the book being
[00:41:26] fantastic, and it being less
[00:41:28] of a typology and more of
[00:41:29] like a schematic of what
[00:41:31] you can show up as in
[00:41:33] stress. I really, really
[00:41:35] love how he highlights how
[00:41:37] anger and frustration can come
[00:41:38] out. Because for a lot of
[00:41:40] women, it's very, very
[00:41:42] different. My anger looks
[00:41:44] different than my sister in
[00:41:45] law is my mom's whoever is
[00:41:47] yours. So I think that that
[00:41:50] is one thing is like if you
[00:41:51] wanted something tangible to
[00:41:54] maybe look into that may be
[00:41:56] really supportive as well. And
[00:41:57] that was really the only
[00:41:58] thing that was coming up for
[00:41:59] me because we did talk
[00:42:00] about that a little bit. And
[00:42:01] I think it's it's been
[00:42:02] helpful for some of my
[00:42:03] clients to be like, oh,
[00:42:05] this is why no one can
[00:42:06] understand my anger. Yeah,
[00:42:07] because it's leaving and
[00:42:08] it's fragmented. It's all
[00:42:09] over the place. And, you
[00:42:10] know, it's disjointed. And
[00:42:12] it's like, yeah, that's
[00:42:13] your expression of that.
[00:42:14] It's nothing to do with
[00:42:15] anybody else. It's just
[00:42:16] your expression of it.
[00:42:18] Okay, I'm glad you're
[00:42:19] bringing this up. And I
[00:42:19] want to ask a little bit
[00:42:20] more about it because I
[00:42:21] lead a women's circle
[00:42:22] every month here in
[00:42:23] Boulder. And we were
[00:42:24] talking about anger came
[00:42:25] up. I think it was the
[00:42:26] last one. There's one
[00:42:27] woman who was like, I
[00:42:29] mean, I've always thought
[00:42:29] that anger is bad, right?
[00:42:30] Because I saw a lot of
[00:42:32] men in my family expressing
[00:42:33] it in a dangerous way.
[00:42:34] So it led us to the
[00:42:35] conversation of how to
[00:42:36] express it or what does that
[00:42:38] look like? So this would be
[00:42:40] a great idea or a great
[00:42:42] example to share. What are
[00:42:45] those different types? What
[00:42:46] are the possibilities that
[00:42:47] anger could look like to
[00:42:48] help people understand?
[00:42:48] Yeah. And I usually I did
[00:42:51] a masterclass on this
[00:42:52] around or around table on
[00:42:53] this around mom, the five
[00:42:55] shades of mom stress or
[00:42:56] rage, basically, basically
[00:42:58] taking it in the form of
[00:42:59] moms. Yeah. So for those
[00:43:01] that run the rigid
[00:43:02] pattern, a lot of time.
[00:43:03] And again, what I
[00:43:04] want to differentiate in
[00:43:05] this is that this is a
[00:43:07] pattern. So it is when you
[00:43:09] are not embodied, not
[00:43:10] present, you are in a
[00:43:12] stress response. This is
[00:43:13] not like, hey, this is the
[00:43:14] way that you express
[00:43:15] anger. Cool. Like it can
[00:43:16] be my grounded anger and
[00:43:19] frustration is very much
[00:43:21] not always the way that
[00:43:22] I'm about to share these
[00:43:23] things. So just a little
[00:43:25] caveat to that. But those
[00:43:26] that run the rigid pattern
[00:43:27] there are five rigid,
[00:43:29] aggressive, enduring,
[00:43:31] leaving and merging.
[00:43:33] Merging has a little bit
[00:43:33] of a subset called merging
[00:43:35] compensated, but I'll talk
[00:43:36] about that. So I anger for
[00:43:39] someone that runs the
[00:43:39] rigid pattern is very like
[00:43:41] you're in a courtroom. Like
[00:43:42] you said that you're going
[00:43:43] to do this at 222. It's
[00:43:46] 222. You didn't do it. And
[00:43:48] in fact, when you did do
[00:43:49] it, you put it in this
[00:43:51] trash can instead of this
[00:43:52] trash can. And I just
[00:43:53] like literally don't
[00:43:54] understand because I've
[00:43:55] told you 12 times in the
[00:43:57] last two weeks, this
[00:43:58] specific thing. In fact,
[00:43:59] I've texted to you, I've
[00:44:00] called you about it and
[00:44:01] ever. It's very like
[00:44:02] courtroom, very like
[00:44:03] pointed energy. And so
[00:44:05] that's what that anger can
[00:44:06] sound like. Aggressive is
[00:44:08] probably what you can
[00:44:09] imagine. It is a fireball
[00:44:10] that will like rain down
[00:44:12] on everyone. It wants to
[00:44:13] eviscerate you. It wants
[00:44:15] to yeah, just char you
[00:44:17] into bits. It can be very
[00:44:19] directive, very visceral
[00:44:21] in the anger. Enduring is
[00:44:23] because the energy is
[00:44:24] usually pressed down. It
[00:44:26] takes a really long time
[00:44:27] for someone that runs an
[00:44:28] enduring pattern to really
[00:44:29] blow up. But when it
[00:44:30] does, it's not necessarily
[00:44:32] the aggressive like out
[00:44:33] and eviscerating. It's just
[00:44:35] like up and it's very big
[00:44:37] and it feels very heavy. But
[00:44:39] it doesn't necessarily have
[00:44:40] to be directed at you. So
[00:44:42] like my husband runs the
[00:44:43] enduring pattern. And when
[00:44:44] he's angry, I mean, it is
[00:44:46] like a volcano and you just
[00:44:47] like don't know what's
[00:44:49] going to happen. But
[00:44:50] again, it's not typically
[00:44:51] oriented at someone. And
[00:44:53] then leaving again, I've
[00:44:55] kind of already alluded to
[00:44:57] that. So leaving is very
[00:44:59] much like the energy is
[00:45:00] up and out. So it's all
[00:45:01] over the place. You're
[00:45:02] getting mad around the
[00:45:04] dog not being let out, but
[00:45:05] also global warming and the
[00:45:08] fact that like you bit your
[00:45:10] tongue at this thing. And
[00:45:12] then, you know, you also
[00:45:13] said this, but then this
[00:45:14] girl looked at you wrong.
[00:45:15] And it's just so much. It's
[00:45:17] all like I'm mad about all
[00:45:18] of it. You know, it's
[00:45:19] very all over the place. I
[00:45:21] often look at people that
[00:45:22] are leaving better. And
[00:45:23] I'm like, so how can I
[00:45:24] help you with this? What
[00:45:26] are you actually angry
[00:45:27] about? It's a lot of
[00:45:28] like getting down to the
[00:45:29] thing. And then it's the
[00:45:31] last one merging. I think I've
[00:45:32] done all of them except for
[00:45:33] merging. Merging is very
[00:45:35] directed at the heart. Those
[00:45:36] individuals want to connect
[00:45:38] with you. They want to come
[00:45:39] back into love. So it's very
[00:45:40] much about like, I don't
[00:45:41] understand why you would
[00:45:42] ever do that to me. Like
[00:45:43] I'm I just all I want to
[00:45:45] do is help like is it is
[00:45:47] it really like that hard to
[00:45:48] just like want to
[00:45:49] communicate or want to like
[00:45:51] hold your hand or for ask
[00:45:53] for help or that's like
[00:45:55] the merging anger
[00:45:56] frustration. So it's a
[00:45:57] little bit softer, but
[00:45:58] it's and it's directed at
[00:45:59] somebody like trying to bring
[00:46:00] you back in like, why? Why is
[00:46:03] it like this? Please don't be
[00:46:04] like this, you know? And
[00:46:05] then merging comp is more of
[00:46:06] like a, I do things for you
[00:46:08] kind of save save your white
[00:46:10] night complex. So that very
[00:46:11] much is like, well, I don't
[00:46:13] understand why anybody ever
[00:46:15] does anything else for
[00:46:16] themselves, because I'm
[00:46:17] just doing it all for them.
[00:46:19] Like, I mean, it's I
[00:46:19] literally don't understand
[00:46:21] why I do all these things
[00:46:22] because it's not like
[00:46:23] anybody does anything in
[00:46:24] return for me. I mean,
[00:46:25] it's, it's literally like
[00:46:26] me just doing it all. And
[00:46:28] like, forget anybody else
[00:46:30] that cares about what's going
[00:46:30] on with me. It's very that
[00:46:32] kind of righteousness, ego
[00:46:34] driven. So those are the ways
[00:46:36] that they sound and you may
[00:46:37] resonate with one or a couple
[00:46:38] of those. But like, that is
[00:46:40] very much it's a different
[00:46:41] energy. And your partner
[00:46:42] also may not know what to
[00:46:43] do with that type of anger
[00:46:45] expression. So just taking
[00:46:47] that into account to when
[00:46:48] trying to be understood or
[00:46:49] trying to cohabitate,
[00:46:52] communicate, connect in that.
[00:46:54] Yeah. Okay, that's really
[00:46:56] helpful to understand
[00:46:57] because I think, yeah,
[00:46:58] people just think anger is
[00:46:59] this like rage outwardly
[00:47:02] towards someone else and
[00:47:04] being an asshole, right?
[00:47:05] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it looks
[00:47:07] many different ways.
[00:47:08] And it all gets to be there.
[00:47:10] Yes, exactly. More awareness,
[00:47:14] right? Yep. Yeah. Awareness
[00:47:16] and acceptance. Yeah.
[00:47:20] All right, Amanda, this has
[00:47:21] been really, really awesome.
[00:47:22] And I think that I feel like
[00:47:24] we can go in some different
[00:47:25] directions and have many more
[00:47:27] conversations. But that is
[00:47:28] probably all we're going to
[00:47:30] do for today. How can people
[00:47:31] find you and work with you?
[00:47:32] I keep it really simple. I'm
[00:47:34] on Instagram. I do not have a
[00:47:35] fancy website. You can find
[00:47:37] all the information that you
[00:47:38] need there on Instagram. It's
[00:47:40] got my link tree, all the
[00:47:41] things. So my handle is the
[00:47:44] somatic DPT, Diaz and David,
[00:47:46] Piaz and Paul, Piaz and Tom.
[00:47:48] Those are my credentials as a
[00:47:49] physical therapist. I have my
[00:47:50] doctorate in physical therapy,
[00:47:51] but I have shifted a little
[00:47:54] 45 degrees, maybe 90 degrees
[00:47:56] into other work in supporting
[00:47:57] people. So the somatic DPT is
[00:48:00] where you can find me.
[00:48:01] Amazing. And I'll be linked
[00:48:02] below. Anything else you want
[00:48:04] to share? I was asked.
[00:48:05] No, just thank you for putting
[00:48:07] this out in the world. I have
[00:48:10] people both in my life and
[00:48:11] clients that struggle with
[00:48:13] chronic pain and I I am often
[00:48:15] very humbled when I don't feel
[00:48:17] well or when I'm not at my
[00:48:19] optimal best. And I always
[00:48:21] think about either my
[00:48:22] patients that I've served in
[00:48:23] the past through physical
[00:48:24] therapy or that do traverse
[00:48:27] this chronic pain journey
[00:48:28] because your capacity is one
[00:48:31] that I cannot imagine.
[00:48:34] And so I just want to pass
[00:48:35] off to everybody that's
[00:48:36] listening to this or that is
[00:48:38] going through any sort of
[00:48:40] chronic pain struggles.
[00:48:42] Thanks for saying that. If
[00:48:43] you heard that, take it in
[00:48:45] again. It's very, very true.
[00:48:48] We often discount, never
[00:48:51] acknowledge, actually, the will,
[00:48:54] the capacity, the power that
[00:48:59] it takes to go through and what
[00:49:01] you have. So take that in again.
[00:49:05] Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thank
[00:49:07] you again. And we will see
[00:49:10] you soon. Yeah. Talk to you
[00:49:12] later. If this podcast means
[00:49:15] something to you, it would
[00:49:16] mean so much to me if you
[00:49:17] could do these couple things.
[00:49:19] One, go to the Heal with
[00:49:20] Grace Show page wherever you
[00:49:22] listen and tap the plus sign
[00:49:23] or click on the follow button
[00:49:25] so you don't miss an episode.
[00:49:26] It helps both of us out.
[00:49:28] While you're there, if you
[00:49:29] could give a five star review
[00:49:31] so that this podcast can
[00:49:32] reach more people, it would
[00:49:34] mean so much to me.
[00:49:35] So I can continue sharing
[00:49:37] episodes that help you as
[00:49:38] well as others.
[00:49:39] Thanks for listening and I
[00:49:41] hope this brings you hope
[00:49:42] on your journey.