Healing Beyond Codependency with Emmy Marie

[00:00:00] Hello, hello. Welcome back to the heel with Grace podcast. How's everybody doing? What's
[00:00:06] happening in your life? I am really excited for our guests today. And the reason this is a little
[00:00:12] bit different podcast than what you might expect on here. But the reason I'm having her name is
[00:00:18] Emmy and the reason I'm having Emmy on is because I keep finding time and time again
[00:00:24] that people either don't recognize what trauma is or they don't really understand
[00:00:29] the effects of it. So I really wanted someone to come on here for us to talk through like,
[00:00:33] first of all, what does trauma look like? What are the effects of trauma? And what does it look
[00:00:37] like to heal through that? Because if you've dealt with chronic pain or illness, you have some sort
[00:00:42] of trauma in your life, that might be big T that might be little experiences that add up over
[00:00:47] time. It just it is within your experience and your life, whether you recognize that or
[00:00:52] a lot or not. So I also just truly feel an urge, a duty, if you will, to bring more awareness
[00:01:01] to trauma, specifically to trauma survivors and it means a abusive relationship trauma survivor.
[00:01:06] And I think it's really important to get the word out there to get just helping people
[00:01:12] understand what that looks like to be in one if you are in one. So if this ever
[00:01:17] resonates with you or you feel like you should share it with someone or share it with a
[00:01:20] certain community, please do because let's, let's keep helping people heal and get out of
[00:01:26] difficult situations, abusive situations. So Amy Marie is a trauma survivor and certified trauma
[00:01:32] informed coach who has been helping survivors thrive after traumatic pasts through one to one
[00:01:37] coaching courses and social media content since 2019. She has a really great account. Highly
[00:01:42] recommend following her. All the links are below. And just to get some more information
[00:01:47] on, you know, what is trauma? What does it heal? What does it look like to heal from that,
[00:01:51] especially an abusive relationship? All right, without further ado, here we go. And I hope you
[00:01:58] enjoy. Hey there and welcome to heal with Grace. I'm your host Grace Secker and I'm a holistic
[00:02:04] licensed therapist and nervous system coach who believes that the chronic and often unseen
[00:02:09] symptoms you're living with are a sign of something deeper going on. A sign that your
[00:02:14] nervous system needs attention. In each episode, I'll share the science behind the most common
[00:02:19] chronic health disorders plus holistic health tips using mental, physical and spiritual practices.
[00:02:25] You'll hear what I've learned in my journey and the true stories from our trusted guests
[00:02:29] so you can feel less alone in your experience and give yourself grace no matter what you're
[00:02:33] going through. So without further ado, settle in and get cozy. It's time to heal with Grace.
[00:02:39] Hi, Emmy. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I'm really excited for today's conversation.
[00:02:46] Hi, thank you so much for having me. I am also looking forward to it.
[00:02:49] Yeah, one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on was because
[00:02:53] the way that you talk about post-traumatic recovery growth in a very day-to-day way,
[00:02:59] like what does that actually look like? And what is that next level of healing once we've
[00:03:03] probably gotten out of that situation? And we've worked on ourselves. We're kind of like
[00:03:07] getting somewhere right, but what do we do with that? So can you give us a little idea of how you
[00:03:14] came into this work and why you do what you do? Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, my history is I was in
[00:03:21] an abusive relationship in high school and it was kind of my first love, first everything. And
[00:03:27] it went on from age 15, like freshly 15 to almost 18. So it was almost exactly three years
[00:03:35] and really took up almost the entirety of high school for me. And it followed that classic pattern
[00:03:41] of abusive relationships that start with a tremendous amount of love bombing and then
[00:03:46] start to slowly degrade into really severe and intense abuse. My abuser was also an addict.
[00:03:53] And I think that impacted a lot of the dynamic as well and just where he was at mentally.
[00:03:58] But yeah, I went through that experience and came out of it thinking that, okay, well,
[00:04:04] life is great now. That's over. So I'm just going to move on and be happy. And that lasted for a
[00:04:10] couple months. And I went to college and just noticed that it felt like depression and anxiety
[00:04:16] were definitely following me. And throughout that abusive relationship, I had really been convinced
[00:04:21] that I was mentally ill. And that was sort of a way that I coped with the reality of
[00:04:26] I was being like psychologically tortured. I was just convincing myself like I'm crazy
[00:04:32] and I'm too much and I'm whatever. And so I went to college and pretty much just proceeded to
[00:04:39] reenact the dynamic that I had experienced in less severe ways. So I started chasing after kind of
[00:04:46] emotionally unavailable guys and just being really anxious and attaching to people who were not
[00:04:52] giving me any indication that they were ready for any kind of relationship. But I just wanted
[00:04:58] love and affection so badly and was so used to seeing myself without a lot of self respect or
[00:05:04] self worth. So that went on until I finally found someone who was interested in what I wanted,
[00:05:10] which was a relationship. And that turned out to be really toxic and unhealthy. I don't quite
[00:05:17] call it abusive, but it was not good. And that went on for another two years. And
[00:05:24] at the end, I kind of had this awakening and realized, you know, what am I doing? Like I'm back
[00:05:31] in this pattern again of in a relationship that makes me feel like shit about myself. And even
[00:05:35] though it's not that bad, it's still not good. And I don't want this anymore. So left that
[00:05:42] relationship and then proceeded to really commit to never being in a toxic relationship
[00:05:48] again. And at the same time, as I was finally kind of discovering a safe environment, my complex
[00:05:55] PTSD symptoms started coming out in full force. So now it's been about three years after the
[00:06:02] initial abusive relationship. And I'm having just a tremendous amount of symptoms. You know,
[00:06:08] you can look up complex PTSD, and I kind of had every single one, it was really debilitating.
[00:06:13] And I finally pursued therapy. I also got into a healthy relationship. And yeah, started my therapeutic
[00:06:21] journey. So this is about 2016. I'm like 21 years old, gotten therapy. And for the next three years,
[00:06:28] that was pretty much the main focus of my life. I was still working full time. I had graduated
[00:06:34] college. I was in this relationship. We did long distance. I tried to have friendships,
[00:06:39] but I was really focused on trauma recovery because the trauma symptoms themselves were
[00:06:46] yeah, really bad and really intense. So went through trauma therapy. And then around 2019,
[00:06:53] 2020, started sharing my experience of healing from trauma and experiencing trauma on Instagram
[00:06:59] through like a creative practice that I did every day, and started building an audience there.
[00:07:04] After about a year of doing that in 2020, I sort of reached a point where I felt like I was capable
[00:07:11] of holding space for others. Built this audience, COVID hit, I got laid off, I discovered that
[00:07:18] coaching existed all in about a six month period. So it was kind of this, you know,
[00:07:23] perfect storm to give me the chance to pursue this as a career. I started my business officially
[00:07:31] in July 2020, offering trauma informed coaching, got certified and trained in that work. And then
[00:07:38] I've been doing it ever since. So I will stop now, but I'm an open book for any and all questions.
[00:07:45] Yeah. Yeah. What I want to understand and highlight a little bit is what's the difference
[00:07:50] between what you termed as an abusive relationship in high school and the toxic,
[00:07:55] but maybe, maybe quite abusive. What's the difference there? Why do you just
[00:07:58] question? Yeah. So the one in high school was like, you know, if you look up narcissistic abuse,
[00:08:07] which I try to stay away from that term, but if you look that up, you'll see a checklist and it's
[00:08:12] every single one. It's verbal abuse, emotional abuse, occasional physical abuse, sexual abuse
[00:08:18] was crazy bad, financial abuse, like every kind of abuse was going on pretty much.
[00:08:24] And it was horrendous. And then the second one that I refer to as toxic, he wasn't screaming at me.
[00:08:34] You know, all the sex was technically consensual, although there was a lot of
[00:08:39] me fawning, me appeasing, me only having sex with him because I wanted love and affection,
[00:08:45] but it wasn't directly forced or coerced as much as I was just like, I don't get to say yes
[00:08:52] or no, like I just do whatever someone wants. So that's why I consider it toxic is it wasn't the
[00:08:58] same level of severity. I think there were moments of abuse that occurred, but it was just a very
[00:09:04] unhealthy relationship compared to the one before that. Yeah. I think that that is important
[00:09:09] to highlight just because I think there's a lot of, I mean, a lot of people, myself included,
[00:09:14] that have been in those types of relationships where, yeah, there's, you don't really have
[00:09:18] a whole lot of sense of autonomy or within yourself, right? Because you don't, you've never
[00:09:23] learned how to own that within a relationship. And it can be quote unquote normal in a way.
[00:09:31] Yeah. And I think it's important to name that like if that abusive relationship never occurred
[00:09:35] in high school, and the second one happened, that would absolutely, I would have needed therapy
[00:09:43] from that, right? Or I would have needed a lot of support and care. Like it was quote,
[00:09:47] unquote, bad enough. It was just not nearly as severe as what I had been through. But like if
[00:09:52] people are listening to this and comparing, please don't do that. If you are in any kind of relationship
[00:09:57] that is making you unhappy or feel like shit about yourself or feel like your body is in your own,
[00:10:02] that matters 100%. We can do that. It could be worse game all day long. And ultimately,
[00:10:09] the only person that benefits from us saying, Oh, it could have been worse is the people who
[00:10:13] want to control and harm us. So don't worry about them. And then focus on you and your feelings,
[00:10:19] because I know as a coach and future therapist, I'm going to grad school, I don't care about that.
[00:10:25] It could be worse. I care that you're in pain, period. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. The compare
[00:10:29] thank you for saying that the comparison factor is never ever helpful. It only matters what's
[00:10:35] happening within you. So a definition that I've used for trauma on here before is actually
[00:10:41] it's not mine. It comes from many other people, but too much too fast too soon. And you are dismissed
[00:10:49] within yourself throughout that time, right? And you don't feel like you even have much of a say.
[00:10:54] Sometimes you don't even recognize that you're keeping you fun, right? You completely people
[00:10:58] please in that way. But if that is for your nervous system, if it's too much for you
[00:11:03] and you are someone who feels like especially in a relationship, maybe like hyper vigilant
[00:11:09] a lot of the times. Yeah, that's traumatic for you. Absolutely. Yeah, one definition of trauma
[00:11:15] that I learned in a training from the body lab and unfortunately can't remember the exact name
[00:11:19] of the practitioner, but it was essentially that, you know, trauma occurs when our needs go
[00:11:25] chronically unmet and are not resolved. So that like a need can be a need for food,
[00:11:32] water, shelter, right? And I think we all understand that if you are being severely
[00:11:35] neglected, that is traumatic. Another need can be for a sense of physical or emotional safety.
[00:11:41] So if you feel like you are unsafe, because your parent or your partner is going to hurt you
[00:11:48] in response to you making a simple humanist mistake, for example, that's traumatic. But
[00:11:53] then there's also needs that we have for like attunement, connection, like more that emotional
[00:11:59] safety factor that it's harder to point to and say, oh, you know, that's severe abuse or whatever,
[00:12:06] because maybe it's not the same as being physically abused or sexually abused. But
[00:12:11] if you feel like in the home you grew up in, you can never actually be your authentic self,
[00:12:16] because you're going to get, you know, pushed to the side overlooked, dismissed,
[00:12:20] not acknowledged or prioritized or treated worse in response, then that's traumatic,
[00:12:25] even if it wasn't this, you know, outright huge event. So I really like that definition too.
[00:12:30] I love that. Yeah, because it speaks to not only, it's not just physical needs, right? Like you
[00:12:34] said, physical, emotional, all the different types of needs. We often think of abuse as physical.
[00:12:40] And I think a lot of people don't acknowledge that there's the emotional abuse that actually
[00:12:46] runs probably more commonly. I do not know that for a fact, just FYI, I'm just assuming.
[00:12:52] But I mean, because it can be a lot more subtle, right? Neglect can be more subtle
[00:12:59] than we recognize someone totally dismissing you and not actually acknowledging maybe some
[00:13:03] emotional needs that you, that you have, or you don't even bring them up because you're afraid
[00:13:08] that they're going to be rejected in the first place. Yeah, I kind of would be willing to
[00:13:12] bet that emotional abuse is more common because it's so much, so much more normalized and
[00:13:17] sort of acceptable. I'm watching Love Island right now, not going to give spoilers,
[00:13:20] but there is like rampant verbal and emotional abuse going on. And if there was physical abuse
[00:13:26] happening, they'd be kicked off the show right then. Like the producers would step in and get
[00:13:30] them out. But we're watching people scream profanities in each other's faces. I'm like,
[00:13:35] I'm sorry, are we supposed to be cool with this in the year of our Lord 2025?
[00:13:39] Like, is this something we're okay with? Yeah, anyways, it's, it's disturbing.
[00:13:46] Yeah. Yeah. What would be some examples then of maybe something other than like yelling at you as
[00:13:52] yeah, obviously that is not okay, right? What would some emotional abuse or neglect look like?
[00:13:58] Yeah. So I think a lot of emotional abuse is like coercive control. So basically,
[00:14:05] someone clearly having an agenda for you, whether it's what they want you to wear,
[00:14:11] who they want you to see, what they want you to pursue, how they want you to speak,
[00:14:16] like it can, it can fall on any little teeny aspect of your life. Anything, I feel like typically that
[00:14:22] makes you feel alive, that makes you feel free, you know, an abusive person is going to target that
[00:14:28] as something to control because they see the way that that can connect you to others and feel
[00:14:34] alive and supported and they want you to solely rely on them. So yeah, controlling behavior
[00:14:40] is really common. Gaslighting is another big one. So say someone treats you really poorly and you're
[00:14:46] like, it was not, you know, that really hurt me. That wasn't okay. And they will outright deny
[00:14:50] it ever happened or they will say, Oh, you made me act like that you make me so crazy.
[00:14:56] Like there's just this denial that there's a lack of accountability going on all the time.
[00:15:02] Or there's these grandiose promises of I'm so sorry, I'll change. I won't do that again.
[00:15:06] And that does not occur. Yeah, other examples of emotional abuse would be manipulation. I think
[00:15:13] that kind of goes under the guise of coercive control. But basically, you're getting an understanding
[00:15:18] whether they're saying it directly or implying it through their energy tone, little things they say
[00:15:24] that if you make a mistake or do something that they don't want you to do, something bad is
[00:15:29] going to happen. You're going to be punished in some way, they're going to withdraw their love
[00:15:33] and care, or they're going to hurt you in some way, they're going to do something themselves that would
[00:15:40] be, you know, hurtful to you, they're going to humiliate you, make fun of you, whatever. So
[00:15:45] ultimately, all of that is to manipulate you to be in this little box that they can control you
[00:15:51] within. So yeah, those are a couple examples. Yeah, I'll also add to that if you feel confused,
[00:15:58] like you're questioning yourself, great one all the time, that's the result of gas
[00:16:01] lighting. But it can be a result of any of that, right? If you're like, well, yeah, that makes
[00:16:06] sense. I mean, I did do that. But also, I mean, you know, confusion and questioning. Oh, yeah.
[00:16:12] Yeah, I feel like that's a lot of the people I work with, like as a coach, I don't work with
[00:16:17] people who are in like severe abusive relationships. I refer them to therapists,
[00:16:21] because that feels like a higher level of care. But I will work with people who are in
[00:16:25] relationships where there's nothing like big going on. But yes, they're having those internal,
[00:16:30] this constant sense of self doubt of like, am I crazy? Am I asking for too much? Like,
[00:16:35] but some things are really good. Like why am I not happy? And I feel like there's this subtle
[00:16:40] gas lighting that does go on. I hear it all the time where people are saying, oh, they're
[00:16:44] partners, you know, my partner is saying, I'll do anything to make this work. I want this to
[00:16:48] work so bad. I love you so much. But then they're doing these outlandish things that
[00:16:53] tell me that they do not like me and they do not want to work on the relationship. So like
[00:16:57] what the hell is going on? And I'm like, yeah, that's definitely like, whether it's,
[00:17:02] you know, intentional manipulative gas lighting, or it's just someone is, you know,
[00:17:07] unwilling to accept the loss of you. It doesn't matter. You are confused because
[00:17:12] there's no coherence going on. Like someone is acting out of alignment with what they're
[00:17:16] saying. And that's going to naturally confuse you because it doesn't make sense.
[00:17:22] Exactly. Yeah, the confusion comes from that, like, you're saying this and doing this,
[00:17:26] right? And then you're also blaming me for things. So of course you're going to be freaking
[00:17:30] confused. Yeah, let's switch gears a little bit into how you do work with people now
[00:17:38] when they're maybe more out of the, or maybe they're, yeah, maybe they're out of the
[00:17:43] the extent of direct abuse. And they're kind of in this questioning phase. Like,
[00:17:48] what does that functional stage of thriving in your life look like?
[00:17:52] Yeah, so like as a, as a coach, I'm really focused on the here and now and future goals
[00:17:58] with the trauma informed lens of the past is going to impact the present and the future.
[00:18:04] So when people come to work with me, I'm typically asking, you know,
[00:18:08] what is something that you're wanting for yourself right now? And for some people,
[00:18:11] it's they want to feel like they have a career that's aligned with their passions. For some
[00:18:16] people, a lot of people, it's they want healthier relationships moving forward, but
[00:18:21] they're not quite sure how to do that since they've been in toxic or abusive relationships in the past
[00:18:28] and they have that as the blueprint. Some people just want kinder self talk, they want to pursue
[00:18:33] creative hobbies, they want to have a more robust social life. So yeah, I'm here to help people
[00:18:40] really have a more thriving life without denying the past, but rather using it maybe as
[00:18:46] information of what they don't want. And then feeling supported in a coaching relationship
[00:18:52] or in the groups I offer, that there's people or me on their team on their side care about their
[00:18:58] success care about their happiness and just provide that like relational safe space that
[00:19:03] we don't always have in our, you know, in real life friendships, because other people don't
[00:19:09] necessarily get what we're going through. Or, you know, there's a lot of reasons why people
[00:19:13] seek like professional help rather than just relying on their friends. So yeah, yeah,
[00:19:19] you've mentioned a few times I've watched some of your content, which is awesome help really
[00:19:23] explain some things. And you've talked a few times about what it looks like to set some
[00:19:30] boundaries in your life at maybe more in this stage, right, for people that are working on
[00:19:34] like, okay, I'm I've been down the self development route for a little bit, I've
[00:19:39] been in therapy, but what is boundaries is such a big topic, right? So we can even hone it in a
[00:19:46] little bit. The reason why I'm bringing it up is because for, for example, like the questioning,
[00:19:52] if someone's been through the questioning and trying to understand, like, what's wrong,
[00:19:55] what's not, is it me? Is it not me? A lot of times there's a lack of boundaries. So
[00:20:00] can you speak to that and like what that looks like now and working through them?
[00:20:04] Yeah, yeah, something I like to really hone in on and focus on is it's not just like you deserve
[00:20:12] boundaries thing and you need to sort of believe in this robust sense of I deserve boundaries,
[00:20:16] because if you're not there yet, that's okay. More I like to think about is like boundaries
[00:20:21] are an inherent human right and a part of healthy relationships for every single person.
[00:20:27] So it's not just like you specifically need boundaries because you're healing or whatever,
[00:20:31] it's like nope, every every single one of us needs boundaries. So it's universal, it's neutral,
[00:20:37] it's just kind of a fact of life. And then another thing I like to focus on is for folks who are
[00:20:42] really concerned with their impact on others and are really terrified of letting people down or
[00:20:47] upsetting people, just recognizing that boundaries are not mechanisms of control, they're not
[00:20:54] ways of punishing other people. They are actually ways of creating more connection,
[00:21:00] because if you are just saying yes to everything, you are going to feel resentful or burnt out or
[00:21:06] exhausted, you're not going to have the same energy that you would have if you were being
[00:21:11] intentional with what you commit to what you say yes to, and being like aligned with your true
[00:21:17] self. So when you make boundaries, one, you're telling the other person that they are allowed
[00:21:23] to make boundaries to and you both have that freedom to choose what's best for you
[00:21:28] and be considerate of the other person and also you're better able to show up for work or
[00:21:35] friendships or creating a business or whatever it is with more joy, with more energy, with more
[00:21:44] satisfaction and ultimately those relationships build and trust and connection through the
[00:21:49] boundaries that both sides create. So those are I guess some of the reasons that I like
[00:21:54] boundaries and maybe I'll pause now because I don't know if it's more like how to set them, but
[00:21:59] yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think we'll get there. I think that that's a really helpful lens to look through
[00:22:06] that I mean boundaries are human. I mean, if you're human, you need and can't have boundaries,
[00:22:12] it's not just because you've been through something dramatic. Yeah. A lot of the people
[00:22:15] listening, when we're talking about setting boundaries within your chronic pain and illness
[00:22:21] journey, it's usually after we've kind of helped stabilize their bodies a little bit more and they're
[00:22:26] getting into recognizing that, Oh, there's a lot around whether how I've treated myself, how I have
[00:22:33] been treated, how I've been dismissed a lot, how all of my emotions have been repressed,
[00:22:38] that actually have contributed to my nervous system freaking out and sending me all these
[00:22:42] symptoms. And so boundaries is a big part of our work a little bit like later on in the work.
[00:22:48] As I say that I'm like, actually, I mean, from day one, we talk about having boundaries with
[00:22:53] yourself really to be honest. It's just like more of an overt topic, I guess you could say.
[00:23:00] Right. A little bit later. But yeah. And so so much of the time I think I see people having
[00:23:07] hard time with it because they may not underneath the surface or consciously consciously or
[00:23:11] unconsciously really does feel like they deserve in a compassionate way to have to like choose
[00:23:17] themselves sometimes. Yes, because it feels selfish, right? It feels like, well, I can't
[00:23:23] because I don't want to be mean to someone else. But in reality, like, I love what you just said
[00:23:28] that it can bring you closer. The more that you are yourself, the more that someone else
[00:23:33] is able to be their selves as well in a way, and that's just in the best interest of everyone.
[00:23:38] So. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes I feel like it's so much more difficult to
[00:23:47] start making boundaries with people who are maybe used to you not having them,
[00:23:52] rather when you meet new people, and you can just start right from the beginning of the way you
[00:24:01] figure out plans or what you agree to when you're just getting to know someone. You can
[00:24:08] from the jump be like, I am a human being that has boundaries, not saying that directly,
[00:24:14] but enacting that. And then if they don't like that, it's a lot easier to lose them
[00:24:19] when you don't know them yet compared to when you have a long-standing relationship with someone.
[00:24:24] That's a lot harder. Yeah, because patterns get ingrained. Yes. Right? So for the similar,
[00:24:30] for the same pattern over and over with someone, it's really, it's totally possible,
[00:24:36] but it's harder to change that instead of setting new ones. I'm actually in,
[00:24:41] I've talked about this before. I went through a divorce a couple of years ago,
[00:24:45] and I'm actually in a new relationship. And I've been thinking about that more of like, okay,
[00:24:49] what do I want to be here? Right? Like, how do I, what am I owning and was really important
[00:24:55] to me in terms of my boundary and my lifestyle? And sometimes that's uncomfortable because I'm
[00:25:00] afraid of like, you're rejecting me or like it not being okay or cool or what, I don't know
[00:25:04] whatever the rejection, the other fear I have, right? But what I learned is that it feels really good
[00:25:10] to own my own boundaries, my own way of life, you know, and like, I don't want to negate them
[00:25:16] anymore. I don't want, I don't want to not live that because it sucks. It's not me.
[00:25:21] Yeah. And I feel like it's a really important part of almost getting to know someone's character
[00:25:26] if they are, they're actually going to be disrespectful of you being like, I can't
[00:25:31] hang out today or I don't want to do that. Like, you do not want them in your life. Like, it doesn't
[00:25:37] matter how like cool they are or whatever spark you feel like that you're going to drown in that.
[00:25:43] It's not, it's not a good avenue to pursue. So, you know, let them know right from the
[00:25:48] beginning who you are and what you stand for, like what you need. And if they respond poorly
[00:25:52] to that, they can go find someone else. Like, yeah. Exactly. And I think that for someone,
[00:26:00] I mean, I'm just assuming if you're listening to this and you're like, yeah, that makes sense, right?
[00:26:05] It's that makes sense. And sometimes it's a little bit harder to do in the moment because
[00:26:09] that inner part of us is like, no, I don't want to be rejected. Like, like me. Oh, yeah. You and me.
[00:26:14] Absolutely. Yes. And that's where it's like, you, it doesn't have to be easy. It doesn't
[00:26:19] have to be fun. Like that's why it's called the work, right? If it was just this
[00:26:23] effortless bliss to like set boundaries and watch people fall off when they're
[00:26:28] not going to respect them, then then they wouldn't be called the work. Like it's
[00:26:32] challenging to choose yourself and your well-being, but ultimately it's like you're setting yourself
[00:26:37] up for greater happiness in the long term. Like you're thinking of the big picture,
[00:26:41] not just like this moment in life. Yeah. And so I think it's critical to make space for like
[00:26:46] the tears, the grief, the anger, the pain, the fear. Like, you don't have to be like,
[00:26:52] like this is so fun and easy. Like you get to be like, this absolutely sucks, but I believe
[00:26:58] in a future where my needs are met and I am treated with respect.
[00:27:03] Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for saying that part. It's very true. This is not going to be some like
[00:27:08] pleasant easy thing all the time or much of the time. Maybe I don't know.
[00:27:14] Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that's why I like,
[00:27:19] I really appreciate the value of friendships and like online community and stuff, like finding like
[00:27:25] minded people who will be like, yeah, you did nothing wrong by setting that boundary. Like
[00:27:30] it's his loss or their loss or loss. Like, you know, that's so helpful compared to just having
[00:27:36] only yourself to try to like bolster your resolve to commit to that. It's like having like any kind
[00:27:42] of, whether it's like a therapist, a coach, a friend, a sport group to be like, you did
[00:27:46] the right thing. Like that is so helpful when you're facing, you know, maybe rejection or loss
[00:27:52] in response to you caring about yourself, because then your experience connection in
[00:27:56] result of you caring about yourself. Exactly. And that connection is that co-regulation
[00:28:02] that actually helps settle our nervous system, right? That's so important, which you probably
[00:28:08] never got and a toxic or abusive relationship. Exactly. And so you don't really actually
[00:28:13] know what that means. I tell the people in my group that all the time, like, this is so important
[00:28:17] for us to see each other in this, right? So you can show up and be you and be validated and seen.
[00:28:24] Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you also talk about self compassion a lot throughout this
[00:28:30] journey and like, how that looks, what does that mean? You walk us through a moment like
[00:28:36] when self love first shifted things for you, self compassion. Sure. Yeah. So I feel, I've said this
[00:28:44] online before, I feel like I approach my personal healing work and a lot of my professional work
[00:28:51] through this combination of love and hate, which sounds crazy, but love for survivors.
[00:28:58] Love for good people out there, whether they're survivors or not, people who make you feel
[00:29:03] safe and who are caring and compassionate and kind. Love. My whole heart filled with love.
[00:29:09] And then I have a lot of hate, hatred for abusive people, systems, experiences. I hate it, right?
[00:29:17] I'm definitely an angry girl. I'm way more angry than sad, generally. So that's kind of how I
[00:29:23] approach, like I said, both my work professionally and personally. And so when it comes to self
[00:29:28] compassion, a lot of it is driven by this desire to be completely different than my abuser
[00:29:37] is who I think of, but also just abusive people in general, abusive systems, abusive
[00:29:42] power dynamics. Like I never want to be like that because I hate it so much and I know what
[00:29:46] it did to me and I see what it does to hundreds of thousands, millions of people.
[00:29:51] So I'm like, in this moment, like I had to train myself to shift away from shame. It was
[00:29:56] very much this practical decision that I had to make. Alongside therapy, obviously helped,
[00:30:03] but that one hour of therapy every week, every other week, there was shame thoughts happening
[00:30:09] every fucking moment of the day. So I had to like train myself to be like, yeah, okay. Yep,
[00:30:14] that's coming up that you're a piece of shit and you'll never find love and whatever, like the
[00:30:19] kind of just inner bully, inner critic. And nope, we're not doing that. Like just putting
[00:30:24] this sort of boundary on it of like, no, I am not gonna, I'm not gonna buy into that anymore. I'm
[00:30:28] done with that. That is what he taught me. That is his voice in my head has conditioned me to
[00:30:36] think of myself so poorly. I'm done. Like I'm not gonna do that anymore. And so I think it
[00:30:40] took a couple like years, honestly, of really intentional effort, but it absolutely paid off.
[00:30:46] And I think about this a lot now, because I will have this little voice pop into my brain
[00:30:51] that now is so distinctly not me. And it's like kind of the ghost of him where it's like,
[00:30:56] like I do a lot of content creation, I'm getting into like vlogging and kind of more influencer
[00:31:00] work right now. And I just know my ex would rip me apart, like and think that is just the most
[00:31:06] pathetic shit ever. And so I hear this little like tinkling back there of that. And I'm
[00:31:12] immediately just like, haha, like I don't care. Like, that's great. Like you don't like it.
[00:31:18] You know, I don't care. Like, and so it just I have this really strong like habit of choosing
[00:31:25] self compassion of like, I am a human being, I'm allowed to do whatever I want, as long as I'm
[00:31:31] not hurting others and maintaining my integrity, like, no one can tell me I'm bad for doing things
[00:31:37] that make me happy. So anyways, that's kind of my approach. I think it's a little bit
[00:31:41] different. It's not super soft. I'm kind of more like, let's go. But that's kind of
[00:31:46] the energy I bring to the self compassion work. Yeah, well, and it probably took some time
[00:31:53] and work to recognize that voice was not yours, right? That fear, that criticism, that shame
[00:32:00] about anything you're doing, I'm assuming, right? Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. And
[00:32:05] it's like, I had to go through this whole transformation away from like I said earlier,
[00:32:11] thinking I was bad. I was mentally ill. I caused this abusive relationship and really
[00:32:17] transformed that into like I was 100% the victim. Like this was never okay at all. And sometimes
[00:32:24] it felt like the more I grew up, like I'm 30 now and this all happened when I was 15, 16 and 17,
[00:32:30] like looking back and being like, how could I have possibly expected myself to
[00:32:35] avoid what occurred? Like I had supportive family, supportive friends. It was, it was so malevolent
[00:32:43] and targeted and horrible. But anyways, yeah, I had to go through this transformation of like
[00:32:48] it was never about me. Like it was all about his bullshit. And I was just the target because I
[00:32:54] wanted more than anything to be loved. So that helps as well. But yeah, I also I really
[00:32:59] think about like, when I am compassionate with myself, I'm better able to learn from my mistakes.
[00:33:05] I'm better able to keep moving forward rather than getting stuck in this like just give up,
[00:33:10] you suck. It's like, well, who does that help? Like my work is so mission driven and purposeful.
[00:33:16] It's like, okay, if I listen to that, I'm going to stop showing up and doing my work or being
[00:33:21] a good friend or being a good community member. So like, instead, let's be gracious. Let's
[00:33:26] be patient. Let's be compassionate because then I can have more energy to keep showing up and doing
[00:33:32] what I consider to be important work in the world. Yeah. And in order to shift out of that, like,
[00:33:40] hey, that is that isn't me and into this, I'm choosing this for myself. That is compassionate
[00:33:46] in and of itself, right? It can look however you want it to look. But yeah, yeah, definitely.
[00:33:52] Yeah, I feel like it's not all about like, I was so fixated on symptom, not just reduction,
[00:33:57] but like evisceration when I first started therapy, because I'm just like, okay,
[00:34:02] let's go. Like I'm tired. I'm so fucking tired of these symptoms. Like they're horrible, right,
[00:34:08] which is totally understandable. But it had, I had this whole revelation where I'm like,
[00:34:13] I me being so obsessed with stopping nightmares, stopping feelings, right, that I am,
[00:34:20] I'm feeling ashamed of myself when I'm failing at that. And that's, it's not my control. I can't
[00:34:26] control the nightmares, the intrusive thoughts, the emotions, the nervous system, dysregulation.
[00:34:31] So I might as well just be kind to myself throughout that, because that is healing. It's
[00:34:36] not just about getting rid of the symptoms. It's also about being a compassionate person to
[00:34:41] yourself. Like that's the antithesis of abuse. And that is that statement right there is so,
[00:34:47] so huge for healing from anything. Yeah, that's like one of the biggest subjects I talk about all
[00:34:53] the time is the way that you approach yourself, your symptoms, because you can't control them.
[00:34:58] You can't change it. They're here. Even if there's this work, right? There's this work that we do,
[00:35:02] nervous system, regulation, therapy, you can do all these things. So on one hand,
[00:35:07] it seems like, well, then I should be able to control it, right? Can just be able to
[00:35:10] control the symptoms if I can do all this work. It's just not that easy. It doesn't
[00:35:14] work in that way. So we have to be compassionate to ourselves because that's the way through
[00:35:20] and the way to heal. Yeah. Yeah. And I do have some overlap with like the chronic illness world
[00:35:26] because I have like three or four of them, which I was going to be my next question.
[00:35:32] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. But yeah, I just thought of that because I feel like
[00:35:38] with chronic illness, there's not always a deep reason. It could be genetic. It could be
[00:35:46] long COVID because you got sick one time with COVID and now you have long COVID.
[00:35:51] There's so many reasons people develop chronic illnesses that have nothing to do with like
[00:35:56] some big thing that you can resolve. It's just the way that it is. And so
[00:36:01] that inspires me too to practice self-compassion just because,
[00:36:05] not because like, oh, I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to heal from this,
[00:36:09] but because I'm suffering, I deserve compassion. Just like if I saw my friends suffering,
[00:36:14] I would want to give them compassion. I don't need to understand why they're suffering. I
[00:36:18] don't need to find the cure. Like I don't need to make it all better. Like I just,
[00:36:22] I just want to be kind. I want to be supportive. So yeah, like applying that inward too.
[00:36:27] Yeah. Yeah. There's many different reasons we can track. Well, that's other podcast
[00:36:32] episodes, but there's many different reasons why chronic illness, autoimmune diseases,
[00:36:37] things like that pain come into play. It's never just like A plus B causes C. Like there's
[00:36:43] always many different reasons. And sometimes can be the hardest thing, one of the hardest
[00:36:50] things we go to, because a lot of times we don't understand it, right? Don't have answers.
[00:36:55] And yes, compassion is so important. That's literally, I mean, yes, it's a play on my
[00:36:59] name, but I use the word heal with grace because we need it. We need grace. We need compassion
[00:37:04] and any healing that we're doing. Yeah. The, the graces of the world that became healers,
[00:37:09] like got that branding locked in. I love it. Yeah. It took me a while to be honest.
[00:37:15] I never used my name and probably the first five years of being a therapist. And then I was like,
[00:37:21] Oh. Yeah. It's so great because it's like, it's, it's, yeah, exactly like a play on words and
[00:37:28] completely reality. Like it is healing with grace. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we've kind of
[00:37:36] gone in a few different realms, if you will, all obviously very centered on trauma, healing,
[00:37:44] self-compassion and what that looks like now. Is there anything else around what we've
[00:37:48] talked about that you feel like is important to know you want our listeners to know that we
[00:37:53] haven't talked about? I can't think of anything. I feel like those are, I feel like my brain can do
[00:38:00] a lot of like, oh yeah, like answering and like playing off and sometimes an open-ended question.
[00:38:05] I'm like lost. So no. Thank you. Yeah. Have you ever looked into your human design? Yes.
[00:38:14] Okay. I'm curious. Do you have a hunch? Actually, I'm not completely sure, but when you said that
[00:38:20] sometimes there's certain types that really respond well to questions, like that's when they're on.
[00:38:28] They can respond, they can link things, but open-ended is like, yeah. Gotcha. I'm a
[00:38:32] manifesting generator. Okay. What are you? Projector. Okay. Nice. Very different. But
[00:38:39] I don't know a ton about it, but I, all I know is when people find out I'm a manifesting generator,
[00:38:45] they're like, oh, okay. That's why you never stop. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have just found it as
[00:38:55] a way to learn more about myself. It's helpful. Yeah. I love that. I'm a big enneagram girl
[00:39:01] and then astrology, I would say is number two. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay. What do you want
[00:39:05] enneagram? I'm a two-wing three. Okay. Yeah. What about you? Yeah. And nine. Nice. Cool. I really
[00:39:12] know. A lot of serendipity or like overlap with the twos and the nines. I feel like it's like,
[00:39:17] let's create harmony and be gentle and love people and yeah, not be confrontational.
[00:39:25] Yeah. That's a learning process for sure. Yeah. Cool. All right. I mean, well, it was really,
[00:39:31] really wonderful to have you on here. Can you tell our listeners where to find you,
[00:39:36] what you're offering right now? Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I love chatting.
[00:39:41] Yeah. So my website is emmymari.com and that is where you'll find everything I'm offering,
[00:39:47] whether it's one-on-one trauma-informed coaching. I also offer trauma-informed
[00:39:51] business coaching. I've got some courses. I got a lot of free resources and then on social
[00:39:57] media, I'm at Blooming with Emmy on Instagram and TikTok, post on both of those like every day.
[00:40:04] So feel free to say hi if you want to and yeah, thank you again for having me.
[00:40:10] Thank you. And we'll have it all linked below and keep tuning in and we will see you next time.
[00:40:16] Thanks, Emmy. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to me if you
[00:40:20] could do these couple things. One, go to the Heal with Grace show page wherever you listen
[00:40:25] and tap the plus sign or click on the follow button so you don't miss an episode.
[00:40:30] It helps both of us out. While you're there, if you could get a five star review
[00:40:34] so that this podcast can reach more people, it would mean so much to me so I can continue
[00:40:39] sharing episodes that help you as well as others. Thanks for listening and I hope this brings
[00:40:44] you hope on your journey.