Healing IBS & Hip Pain with Mind-body Work

[00:00:00] Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Heal with Grace podcast. We have another special guest today
[00:00:05] who is a licensed clinical social worker and who has also done and has continued to be in a long
[00:00:13] healing journey with his own chronic symptoms. Sean Hershey is a licensed psychotherapist who
[00:00:19] helps people use emotional and psychological modalities to heal chronic pain. And I'm
[00:00:24] excited for you to hear just how debilitating some of his symptoms are and how he fully lives his
[00:00:31] life today pretty much without them. The power of story and really helping you hear someone else
[00:00:37] go through this work, I think is only going to help you further recognize that this work works.
[00:00:43] It freaking works. If you don't know by now listening to this podcast,
[00:00:48] this is an episode that's going to help you understand that. Without further ado,
[00:00:52] let's go for it and I'm excited to share this with you.
[00:00:56] Hey there and welcome to Heal with Grace. I'm your host Grace Secker and I'm a holistic
[00:01:01] licensed therapist and nervous system coach who believes that the chronic and often unseen
[00:01:06] symptoms you're living with are a sign of something deeper going on. A sign that your
[00:01:10] nervous system needs attention. In each episode, I'll share the science behind the most common
[00:01:15] chronic health disorders plus holistic health tips using mental, physical, and spiritual
[00:01:20] practices. You'll hear what I've learned in my journey and the true stories from our trusted
[00:01:25] guests so you can feel less alone in your experience and give yourself grace no matter what you're
[00:01:30] going through. So without further ado, settle in and get cozy. It's time to Heal with Grace.
[00:01:37] Hello, hello and welcome back to the Heal with Grace podcast.
[00:01:42] Sean, thank you so much for being here. I'm really excited to hear your story.
[00:01:46] Yeah, thank you for inviting me. I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you.
[00:01:49] Yeah. Just a second ago before we hit record started talking about how we both are loving
[00:01:53] our background plants and our green shirts. So I think we already have a good connection so far.
[00:01:58] It is like a classic like, you know, therapist vibe.
[00:02:01] Very, very much so. I can't get away from it. It just it is, it is my vibe. Yeah, obviously.
[00:02:08] Same z's. So.
[00:02:11] All right. So tell us a little bit about you, what brought you into this work and
[00:02:16] what brought you into therapy if they're different. I'm curious.
[00:02:18] Cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, let's get into it. So yeah, my name is Sean Hershey.
[00:02:22] I'm an LCSW in Brooklyn, New York, and I have been a therapist for 10 years.
[00:02:29] We might be all about to hit 11 years, but we're just in that sort of range.
[00:02:34] And I had a whole history and we can get into this, but I had a whole history of
[00:02:42] IBS that was very bad, very severe, and hip pain. But those are my two biggest, baddest
[00:02:50] symptom imperatives with my body stuff. And I found the work of Dr. John Sarno and Nicole Sacks
[00:02:57] just about exactly three years ago now. And that like blew my mind open, changed everything.
[00:03:04] I was like, right, like these symptoms that I'm having are actually emotional,
[00:03:09] they're actually brain based. Wow, that changes everything. And of course, I'm sure your audience
[00:03:15] understands that, yes, the symptoms are really happening in the body. Of course they are. And
[00:03:20] they're not coming from where you think they're coming from. And having that kind of explosion
[00:03:24] in my brain was like, wow, is that true? Is that true? Can it possibly be true?
[00:03:29] Does this apply to me? And I still literally to this day, I will still in low moments have
[00:03:34] that same questioning which we can we can get into, which is nuts, because I'm like, I've gone
[00:03:39] so far down this path. I am doing really pretty well in a lot of ways with my symptoms. But it's
[00:03:45] funny how I mean, we can get into that, but how like the doubt still like comes up sometimes.
[00:03:49] This has helped me so much. My severe chronic IBS is over. That's gone, which is awesome. So
[00:03:56] that I feel like such a success in that way. Hip pain is a symptom imperative that we're
[00:04:01] like teetering on the edge with. I'm like, sometimes I'm like, my chronic pain is gone.
[00:04:05] Other times I'm like, why? Which of course doesn't help when I get frustrated like that.
[00:04:12] But I am very happy to have found this. It has absolutely worked for me. It continues
[00:04:18] to work for me. This work has just been very profound. And so now I do this professionally.
[00:04:22] And I have my own podcast, which is how we first connect. That's how I first connect to you
[00:04:26] actually. So for your audience, if they don't know, I have a podcast called Mind Body Medicine
[00:04:30] for Chronic Pain, which I started in April of this year. And I think it's pretty good. So I'm
[00:04:36] like, if anybody wants to check it out, feel free, Mind Body Medicine for Chronic Pain,
[00:04:40] wherever you get your podcast. And I found you actually, because if you scroll to the bottom
[00:04:45] of a podcast, you see like, you may also like, and who shows up, but heal with grace. And
[00:04:51] I was like, Oh, nice. So I started listening to that. I was like, well, look at that.
[00:04:55] We're on the same train. So glad we connected. And I mean, I can get into more about my story,
[00:05:01] but that I would say those are the basics. Oh, and I guess the other thing to say is that
[00:05:05] I'm a therapist. I think similar to you. Like I do this work with clients now. So I've got a
[00:05:09] couple of slots open. So if people want a therapist who like really gets this stuff and
[00:05:14] can help them with this stuff. Yeah, I want your audience to know, I guess, that I'm available.
[00:05:18] Yeah. Yeah, I found that's so cool. I love that they suggest different podcasts.
[00:05:24] I found you because Michael Dowell, the doctor that I'm in a consultation group with my body
[00:05:30] symptoms was on your podcast and he, or he sent it out and I listened to it. And yeah,
[00:05:34] I also think I had seen your name before, just, I don't know, Instagram or something
[00:05:38] too. Yeah. It clicked for me. I was like, how do I know that name? So yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:42] It's a small world. Yeah. It's a small but mighty and like really cool world to be in.
[00:05:48] Yes. There's so much just, there's so much power because when you've gone through this work
[00:05:53] and you have found how much it helps you, you can't not talk about it.
[00:05:57] Even if you don't do this professionally, like my brother has now come to this work
[00:06:02] in his own way with his own symptoms. And he was mentioning the other day, he was like,
[00:06:06] yeah, one of my friends started talking to me about something that going through. And I was
[00:06:09] just like, Hey, let me sit you down and talk to you about this. He's like, I want to share
[00:06:12] something with you. You know, you just can't not. Let me just say that's amazing to hear
[00:06:16] that because in preparation for doing this conversation today, I listened yesterday
[00:06:20] to your interview with Vanessa Blackstone. And in that episode, you said something about like
[00:06:27] my brother is dealing with his own chronic issues. So I've like talked with him about it.
[00:06:31] And I was thinking of course, about all the people that I've tried to get on board in my life.
[00:06:35] And nobody's nobody's into it. So it's funny because I was thinking when you said that
[00:06:41] I was like, well, good luck, Grace. Like, let me know how that goes. And so it's actually
[00:06:46] really cool to hear that not only is he into it, but he's sharing it with others.
[00:06:50] That's powerful. Because that's the thing. It's like this stuff really works for chronic pain.
[00:06:55] And so much stuff does not. I mean, I know for myself, and I'm sure for most people in your
[00:07:02] audience, like we are people who have tried so many things that don't work. And then when
[00:07:08] you start to reconceptualize it as emotional and psychological, then it's like, now we make
[00:07:13] the breakthroughs. So it's just like as hard as it is to do that. It's like it does work.
[00:07:18] So it's cool to see that your brother was able to do that.
[00:07:21] Yeah. And it took some time. He dismissed me for a little bit or didn't really want to hear it,
[00:07:26] which totally normal. I saw it. But it didn't take as long as I thought. It just took a few
[00:07:33] different resources, which is actually I think is important to note that it took a few different,
[00:07:38] like I sent him a book or a podcast or certain things. And he just, it wasn't connecting
[00:07:43] until actually he read Mind Your Body, Nicole Sacks. And finally I got a text and he was like,
[00:07:49] I get it. I love it. It clicks now. It just takes something similar just in a different way. And
[00:07:57] it takes some time, place, like content to really resonate. So yeah, time, but he's there.
[00:08:06] Absolutely. And I mean, that's something that I've said on my podcast many times. It's like
[00:08:09] most people who do this kind of mind body work are saying slightly different versions
[00:08:14] of the same basic thing. And it is nice to hear it in different voices. And it makes it feel more
[00:08:21] believable because it's such a paradigm shift. You know, when you think about it, it's such a
[00:08:24] paradigm shift to think about physical symptoms emotionally and psychologically rather than
[00:08:28] just thinking about them structurally. So it's easy to think like, say only one person is
[00:08:34] talking about this is like, well, that person is obviously crazy. But then you read two books or
[00:08:39] three and there's somebody else. And there's all these stories like speaking to Nicole Sacks,
[00:08:43] like she has a wonderful podcast with so many success stories, then it starts to feel like
[00:08:48] if it applies to all those people, they can't all be like in a shared delusion.
[00:08:52] Like this might apply to me. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. And so I want to
[00:08:57] know a little bit more about the details of your story and how, like what were you
[00:09:01] dealing with? How long did it take you to come to this work? Did you be skeptical at first?
[00:09:05] Did you, you know, what was that like, especially being a therapist?
[00:09:09] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So let's get into it. I mean, I guess I'll start the story
[00:09:14] at the end, which I've already sort of said, I consider myself a total success, especially
[00:09:19] when it comes to IBS. I'm like, if anybody's out there and they're like, I just need to know
[00:09:25] can you recover from IBS using mind body work? My very easy answer to that is yes,
[00:09:32] I have done it and you can do it too. Thank you for saying that. Yes. So I'll start at the end
[00:09:38] with that one. And then like I said, hip pain is my other, it's funny. I'm sitting here right now
[00:09:42] and like I actually was just going through annoying emotional stuff for the past few weeks.
[00:09:48] And my hip has been acting up. And I'm like, luckily today I'm sitting here in my hip to
[00:09:52] feel it. I feel the tiniest little tension pressure in there. And I'm like, so right now
[00:09:58] I'm saying I'm a success with the hip pain too. Either way, I know I'm a success, but I just like,
[00:10:03] I want to be real with people that that's a journey that I'm still on a and be the end.
[00:10:09] Doesn't have to be like, everything's perfect. And I never experienced pain ever because that's
[00:10:13] not realistic. So I'm going to start at the end just so people know like what they're
[00:10:16] getting into. If you want a success story, here we go. Let's do it. There were multiple
[00:10:22] different factors looking back that clearly led to me being someone who, number one, didn't feel
[00:10:29] fully safe expressing my emotions. And number two, didn't feel fully safe being my true self.
[00:10:36] Classic TMS breeding ground for TMS. Those symptoms. And when I say TMS tension,
[00:10:42] myositis syndrome, is your audience familiar with it? It's like, my body pain. Are they
[00:10:45] familiar with that? I mean, yes, but yeah, we should probably
[00:10:49] state what it is. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's Dr. Sarno's original term,
[00:10:53] tension, myositis syndrome. It's the same as a neuroplastic pain, neuroplastic symptoms,
[00:11:00] same as what are all the other names? Psychophysiological symptoms?
[00:11:04] Yeah, psychophysiological. Yeah. Brain-based symptoms? Yeah.
[00:11:09] Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So TMS, just a synonym for more of the same. So I grew up in like a
[00:11:16] pretty very like right versus wrong, rigid kind of household where things were supposed to be a
[00:11:24] certain way. And I grew up gay and closeted in the Catholic church, spent 12 years in Catholic
[00:11:31] school, which, you know, all of this was complex. Like my childhood was like really
[00:11:36] wonderful in a lot of ways. My family was great in so many ways. And the community I grew
[00:11:41] up in was like tight knit and I felt like safe in some ways and comfortable in some ways and also
[00:11:49] felt scared and repressed and like I didn't fit in. And in my family, I felt like there were
[00:11:56] parts of me that were not allowed and I had to hide a lot. I share this to relate to people in
[00:12:01] your audience that many people will come to this work thinking like, I don't really have
[00:12:06] trauma because I have so many good elements in my past. My story is very positive. And that, yes,
[00:12:13] lots of good elements in your past. Yes, your story is very positive. That can all be very true.
[00:12:18] And you may have more trauma than you think that you do or more repressed emotions than you
[00:12:23] think that you do. And certainly, hi. Yeah. One of those people is a prime example of that.
[00:12:29] We have a lot of similarities. Everything you just said, you're pretty much describing
[00:12:33] me and my childhood minus the gay part. That's my brother. Wow. But like same. Yeah.
[00:12:39] Wow. Did you go to Catholic school too? Not Catholic, Episcopal. Same vibe, probably.
[00:12:45] Yeah. Same vibe. Yeah. Wow. Wow. And no surprise. You know, the fact that we,
[00:12:52] I mean, something that I really like drill down under my podcast a lot when I like talk
[00:12:57] about this stuff is that like people who struggle with TMS and mind body symptoms have
[00:13:01] three things in common. One is a fear of feeling like it's not safe to feel physical sensations.
[00:13:07] Two, feeling like it's not safe to feel your emotions. And three, feeling like it's not
[00:13:11] safe to be your true self. The treatment is like learning how to feel safe with physical
[00:13:15] sensations, learning how to feel safe with your emotions and learning how to feel
[00:13:18] safe with your true self. But all of us have that in common. So it's like cool,
[00:13:23] but not shocking to hear that like, yeah, like same and same. Yeah. But so anyway,
[00:13:29] so through my childhood, I had different sentiment paradigms, like really bad headaches.
[00:13:34] I remember being in third grade and having like scans done of my head. I remember seeing like up
[00:13:42] on the screen, whatever you call that, like, oh, scans of what my brain looks like at my mom and
[00:13:49] me and my brother and the doctor kind of going over and like, so why does he have such bad
[00:13:52] headaches? Years of like taking like child Motrin and graduating to like adult Motrin
[00:13:59] when I was like a preteen and like, I mean, so much of that the headaches. I mean, you know,
[00:14:05] these things, these symptom imperatives come and go that was a long symptom imperative,
[00:14:09] but it was so long ago that I don't remember. I don't remember it moving out,
[00:14:12] but it eventually did. And then through my teenage years, I don't think I really had
[00:14:18] much in the way of like chronic pain, symptom imperatives. I did when I was 19 years old,
[00:14:25] when I was in college and I was like just about to, I was emotionally preparing myself to like
[00:14:32] come out as gay and I, there was one, okay, so my school, Beloit College in Beloit, Wisconsin,
[00:14:40] such a cute little place. You had every, it was in, I was always in the spring,
[00:14:44] it was probably like April, some, sometime April, May, there would always be a day off
[00:14:49] of classes that was called spring day. And it would like come out of nowhere,
[00:14:53] it'd be like on Monday, they would announce like spring day is this week. And it was like,
[00:14:56] Oh my God, spring day. So then it was great. We all get to like go out the night before
[00:15:01] because classes are canceled tomorrow. And then there's a whole day where you like,
[00:15:04] don't do anything like it's spring day. And so this day that was meant to be like
[00:15:09] a fun, relaxing break from life was the first day. So okay, I, you know, I don't remember
[00:15:17] what I did, but I'm sure I like went, you know, it was college and I was like into partying
[00:15:20] at the time. So I'm sure like went out was like, you know, doing whatever, go to bed,
[00:15:25] wake up on spring day with my hip hurting. And I was like, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no,
[00:15:30] see opposite, wake up on spring day feeling fine, get up, like do some yoga, go on a very long
[00:15:36] walk with a bunch of my friends. We went to this place to get ice cream, which I think
[00:15:40] about this memory all the time, because I'm like, where would that have been? I literally
[00:15:44] can't even, I don't remember, but I know this happened because it's such a clear memory
[00:15:48] came back. And that night, the night of spring day, my hips started hurting. And I was like,
[00:15:54] that's weird, it must be from stretching or from walking. I'm sure if I go to sleep and wake up,
[00:15:59] it'll be fine. Go to sleep, wake up still there. Go to sleep, wake up still there. Go to sleep,
[00:16:04] wake up still there days, days, weeks, months, then it's summer. And I'm like, going to see
[00:16:10] chiropractors and like, what's wrong with my hip? Looking, well, and let me just say,
[00:16:15] this has become such, this has waxed and weighed in over the course of my life,
[00:16:19] but it has become such a constant. I just want people to understand like the power of this,
[00:16:25] such a constant symptom imperative that I literally, like I said at the beginning of
[00:16:29] this interview today, I could still tell you it is this hip. It's my left hip. I still feel it
[00:16:34] a little bit today. It's crazy. It's crazy, the power of this is crazy. And now look.
[00:16:40] And actually, go ahead. Sorry, just for a second. I realized, I obviously know what it is, but
[00:16:43] I realized you're saying symptom imperative. Can you describe that for a second?
[00:16:47] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, you know, anyone with a mind, body symptom or TMS,
[00:16:54] the symptom moves around. So sometimes, you know, if there are periods of life where it's
[00:16:59] headaches, there are periods of life where it's IBS, there are periods of life where it's
[00:17:03] hip pain, there are periods of life where it's back pain, it could be plantifasciitis.
[00:17:06] I'm basically, these are like basically all symptoms that I personally have had.
[00:17:10] Plantifasciitis hurts so bad. Have you ever had that?
[00:17:14] No, that's not been one of mine, but thankfully, I don't want to catch it.
[00:17:19] I mean, any symptom can be bad for me when I had that. That was, that was
[00:17:23] shockingly bad. My heart goes out to anyone who's struggling with any chronic pain,
[00:17:27] but I'm just like really feeling like, wow, plantifasciitis was a lot.
[00:17:31] So yeah, a symptom imperative just is like this sense that like it moves around.
[00:17:34] All of these things feel so different, but they all come from the same place,
[00:17:38] which is like the threat, threat biology and stress biology.
[00:17:42] Now that I look back on this situation with mind-body awareness, I'm like that was due
[00:17:48] to the stress of being about to come out, all the fears around that. I mean like all my friends
[00:17:54] like thought I was gay and knew I was gay. There was nothing to be afraid of, but yet
[00:17:58] I was afraid and my body was afraid and I was feeling a lot and that was a lot of pressure
[00:18:02] and it was super stressful. And so like that was why my hip was feeling that way.
[00:18:06] Because it's interesting to look back on that story and think like I genuinely the first couple
[00:18:11] days of having that hip pain, I was like this will go away. I genuinely thought that.
[00:18:16] And so the problem at that time was not like I believe something's wrong with my body.
[00:18:22] I can't handle this pain. The problem was I'm having emotions that I'm too scared to face.
[00:18:28] So it's interesting to think now that after all these years I'm like, wow, imagine what it
[00:18:34] was like to live in a, it's a live in a brain where I was like, nothing's wrong with my hip.
[00:18:40] After spending like a decade and a half of like clearly something's wrong with my hip,
[00:18:45] you know, it's taken me so long to climb out of that hole. And I'm like still,
[00:18:49] still like sort of grasping at the top of the hole like, come on, come on, let's get out of
[00:18:54] here. But anyway, so that started like all this hip pain. I truly believed that it was
[00:18:59] because of the yoga and stretching I had done and the walk that I had taken.
[00:19:02] Did I do yoga all the time and stretching all the time at that time? Yes. Did I walk all the time?
[00:19:08] Yes. So these physical reasons for why I thought I had these symptoms were totally off base.
[00:19:15] And yet that's what I believe because I didn't know to make the emotional connection.
[00:19:20] Say I was feeling sad or scared, then I would have been like, yeah, that's probably because
[00:19:23] I'm sad and scared. But when I was feeling pain in my hip, I did not know that that was like
[00:19:28] emotional manifestation in my body. Or you could say that it was like
[00:19:33] fear of the emotion that I didn't want to feel, you know, you could sort of put it either way.
[00:19:37] But either way, that is what the mind body symptom is. So the hip pain waxes and wanes,
[00:19:42] blah, blah, blah. You know, I sort of go on with life, but I live like in a limited way
[00:19:47] where I'm afraid to run, afraid to stretch, afraid to do like whatever. And like you have
[00:19:51] to go back in and out of chiropractors and stuff just like often enough, because I'm
[00:19:56] like something's clearly wrong with my hip. Then when I was in my 20s, I graduated from college,
[00:20:01] moved to New York, had a job that was like very great and stressful and just like a lot of
[00:20:06] pressure and you know, living on your own for the first time just is a lot of pressure and
[00:20:10] stressful. And then I developed severe IBS. And I don't know, I don't want to get,
[00:20:16] I don't know how deep to get into this, but the IBS was bad. And it came on slowly.
[00:20:23] The hip pain came on like very discreet one day, I can tell you the day. The IBS was like
[00:20:30] my stomach would start to hurt in the mornings. And then it was like, oh, there's something
[00:20:33] wrong with my stomach. Is it? Am I maybe allergic to something? Oh, maybe I'm like
[00:20:37] waking up too early and I don't have time to like process my food. Maybe. And I was very
[00:20:43] constipated at the time. I don't know if this is TMI, but constipation was a big part
[00:20:50] of the problem. Bloating, gas, constipation. Those were really, really rough times. And
[00:20:58] the way that I say it came on gradually, I had this kind of feeling like, hasn't my stomach
[00:21:04] always had problems? Like because I can think back to times like where my stomach hurt
[00:21:10] like last year or the year before. But like, was that just one day or just like a couple
[00:21:16] days? Or was my stomach hurting all the time? And I didn't even notice it, which I do not
[00:21:23] think is true. You know, now that I'm like on the other side of that, and I'm like,
[00:21:26] my stomach does not hurt all the time every day. You know, when your stomach hurts all the time
[00:21:32] every day, like I would have known that. But but in this like world, I was of like doubt
[00:21:38] and confusion. I was like, something's clearly wrong with me. Maybe something's been wrong
[00:21:42] with me this whole time. So, you know, life goes on, I do all this stuff, multiple gastroenterologists,
[00:21:48] lots of different, I mean, I could, it's not even worth going down the rabbit hole of
[00:21:52] all the things that I tried. Many enemas, what is like, it's like a professional enema,
[00:21:57] a colonic, I did a few colonics, what I would do, like things like that that were kind of
[00:22:01] extreme. I remember like being in this awful place, getting a colonic somewhere like Midtown
[00:22:05] Manhattan, and this woman, it's like a Saturday morning, it's just like such like classic classic
[00:22:12] TMS sufferer misery to be like where you could, I could be asleep, I could be like living my life,
[00:22:17] but I'm at this stupid colonic clinic, like on a Saturday morning, because it was like the,
[00:22:22] you know, the cheap time to like get in before the rush. And remember this woman, stick a tube
[00:22:28] up your and you like you're laying there. And she starts like, and then you know,
[00:22:32] they like put water in and put different like, you know, algae colored stuff. I mean, I don't know.
[00:22:39] The things that have gone into my body, I'm like, I'm glad I'm still okay. Because some of that stuff
[00:22:44] I'm like, what was I doing? I was so desperate. But I remember when this woman who was doing
[00:22:50] like the colonic provider, when she started like sucking the material out after putting it
[00:22:55] in, like all this gas came out and she was like, God, oh God, she was like in shock by how
[00:23:02] quote unquote bad it was. So it was, which of course just put me in greater fear that I'm like,
[00:23:07] even this colonic lady is like something's real wrong with him. So I'm like, I just want people
[00:23:13] to know it's like my symptoms were bad, like to the point where this woman who like shoves
[00:23:18] stuff up people's butts and takes it out often was like, Oh, this is a bad, it was bad.
[00:23:23] Hey, friend, it's Grace. I know you're tired of feeling like managing your physical and mental
[00:23:27] health is just one big moving target. I also know that you've spent years of your life and hundreds
[00:23:32] of dollars on doctors visits, juice cleanses, fad diets and fancy supplements, only to feel like
[00:23:37] nothing about your chronic symptoms has changed. If this sounds like you consider this your
[00:23:42] invitation to find a holistic health protocol that works for you and your body, even if you
[00:23:47] have chronic symptoms, unhealed trauma or dysregulated nervous system. That's exactly
[00:23:52] what's waiting for you inside the mind body healing method, my 12 week group program that's
[00:23:57] designed to help you say body or chronic symptoms through learning how to regulate your nervous system,
[00:24:01] retrain your brain and heal unresolved trauma. Our clients have found relief from even the
[00:24:06] most chronic of symptoms, including fibromyalgia, sciatica, migraines, gut issues and other
[00:24:12] uncomfortable symptoms without pills or a long list of rituals and regimens. If you'd like
[00:24:17] to learn more about our program, head over to the show notes and learn more because
[00:24:21] the truth is that there is a protocol that works for you. You just might not have found
[00:24:26] the right balance for your body yet. Now let's get back to the episode.
[00:24:31] I mean years go by with like different diets, all this extreme stuff. One of the worst parts
[00:24:37] of that I would say was my stomach was so bloated at the time and I was so skinny.
[00:24:43] My stomach was so big and that was so emotionally like just like shitty for me.
[00:24:49] That part was so, so bad and just like my heart goes out to people like dealing with that and it
[00:24:55] feels kind of like I'm, oh that's stupid that shouldn't matter. Like that's just like so surface
[00:25:00] level, but it really did matter to me and it really did suck for me. And I, you know,
[00:25:05] I look back at that and I'm like, I have to, you know, now that I'm doing this work, I have
[00:25:10] to honor it. Like that's an important part of myself whether I like that or not. Like if I don't
[00:25:15] want to look like I'm seven months pregnant, like, okay, then I just have to honor it that
[00:25:21] I don't want to look like I'm seven months pregnant. And even if like my family or like
[00:25:25] lots of people in the world would be like, don't worry about that. You shouldn't worry about that.
[00:25:29] It's kind of immature to worry about that or think about that or like just shove that down
[00:25:33] and don't think about it. Okay, you can say that all you want, but if it matters, it matters.
[00:25:38] You know, I don't think people should organize their lives around like trying to like look
[00:25:42] amazing. And like that's the point of like mind body healings. Like I'm hotter now. It's like that's,
[00:25:48] I mean, I wish that would be a cool outcome. But that's not necessarily the outcome. I just
[00:25:54] want to mention that because I think it's important to like drill down on the fact that
[00:25:57] like, you want what you want and you care about what you care about. And even if it feels
[00:26:01] like you shouldn't, it's okay if you do. I just want to like offer that to people
[00:26:04] listening. But so then, you know, I go through all this different stuff, all these different
[00:26:09] treatments. I finally found this program called DNRS. Have you ever heard of that? Okay. Yeah.
[00:26:16] I almost did it. I didn't quite, I don't know. I didn't do it. I went on to something else at the
[00:26:20] time. But yeah, yeah, you're familiar. And a lot of people listening to this have probably tried
[00:26:26] or are in it or yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's a brain retraining program dynamic neural retraining
[00:26:32] system DNRS, I think is what it stands for. It's definitely in the family of mind body
[00:26:38] work. Yeah. I think of mind body work as having three components, one, the psychological work to
[00:26:44] the emotional work and three, the work of attuning to your true self. This was this was part one.
[00:26:49] So it didn't have the emotional stuff and the self attunement stuff, but it was like very much
[00:26:54] like your symptoms are coming from your brain, your symptoms are coming from your stress
[00:26:59] response, calm down, and that will help your symptoms. So I did that. And it did help me
[00:27:04] enough that that IBS was still like a daily problem, but it was not a bad daily problem. So,
[00:27:10] so, you know, life went on. Then during the pandemic, my hip became this symptom imperative
[00:27:16] that was the bigger and it got really bad. I mean, like, I'm thinking about where I'm at with my
[00:27:21] hip. Now I want to acknowledge to your audience, like, even though a question whether I can call
[00:27:26] myself a success story, like when I think about how bad it was, like, yeah, I'm definitely
[00:27:31] a success story because it was really bad when it was really bad. Like I like my hip hurt a lot
[00:27:37] all the time. And it was at that point that a friend of mine introduced me to the idea of
[00:27:45] mind body work by introducing me to Nicole Sacks, like her work. And so I looked at her
[00:27:51] website. I remember the day that I looked at her website, it was October of 2022. And I was like,
[00:27:57] Oh, wait, if this is real? Wow. Wow. I remember being like very excited, scared, nervous, kind of
[00:28:05] like, I don't know if I can believe this, but like, if this is real, this would explain
[00:28:10] a lot of my problems. And I remember that night that I had looked at the website, I didn't even
[00:28:18] go deep on it. It was just at that time, the website, I still remember it had like a big
[00:28:21] banner headline that was like, the pain is not in your head, but the solution is not in your
[00:28:26] body. And I read more about it and was like, wow, this could be amazing. And then that night,
[00:28:35] I walked to the gym. And I remember my hip feeling just like a little bit looser, a little bit,
[00:28:42] like less painful, a little bit more just like easy to move around than it usually did. And I
[00:28:49] was like, Oh, maybe we're onto something. So then, you know, multiple years of doing this work.
[00:28:58] I mean, the biggest things for me have been, I mean, I've done so much in terms of my own healing.
[00:29:04] But the biggest things have been, you know, the things that I just said, it's like first,
[00:29:08] knowing that like I'm safe in my body, which I still struggle with every time that I have like,
[00:29:14] you know, symptoms return. I'm like, Oh, God, it's back, which I mean, we can get into that if we
[00:29:20] want. But I'm like, wow, like really trying to move on from that. But that's that's the first
[00:29:23] thing is like feeling safe in your body, because I don't have anything wrong with my body that's
[00:29:27] causing pain. It's all emotional. And I want your audience to know like, the same probably
[00:29:33] goes for you. So the first thing, second thing, feeling safe with my emotions, which,
[00:29:38] which, okay, yes, this has been huge. Going back to what you said about being a therapist,
[00:29:42] I came into this thinking like, the emotional stuff doesn't apply to me because I am a therapist.
[00:29:48] I've been in and out of a lot of my own therapy. And I'm like, I'm not afraid of my emotions. So
[00:29:53] that part is not a problem. Wrong. Very wrong. Same. Okay, let's do you next
[00:30:01] with this, with this, if you're okay with that. Okay, cool. I mean, I'm someone who like,
[00:30:05] yeah, I feel my emotions, I wallow in my emotions. And I've done that my whole life.
[00:30:10] I'm not afraid to do that. But I realized that the energy that I was bringing to that my whole life
[00:30:15] was like, how do I fix this? What can I make better? How do I change this? How do I solve this?
[00:30:22] And what I know now is that like, it's more like, how do I just feel this? And that's a huge
[00:30:28] difference. It's a huge difference. Like, how do I just allow it? And how do I just feel it?
[00:30:32] That's a huge difference. So yeah, I was, I, there was a lot of emotional stuff that I was,
[00:30:36] I was not acknowledging. And, you know, just like a lot of stuff from my past that I was not
[00:30:40] acknowledging how shitty it was, how angry it made me, even stuff in my present that I,
[00:30:45] I was very like negating myself. I was very, I was so used to that that I didn't know I was
[00:30:49] even doing that. So there was a lot of emotional stuff to work through. Third is like tuning into
[00:30:55] like who I really am. That has been so big because I mean, that has been really a
[00:31:00] foundational paradigm shift to look back on my childhood and realize, yeah,
[00:31:05] while I did have a lot of positivity in my childhood, it was not really like nobody really
[00:31:11] like helped me develop my own sense of self, like just allowing me to be who I am. Most of my
[00:31:17] childhood was much more focused around like shaping me to be a certain way, which is subtle,
[00:31:23] but it has been very profound for me. And unfortunately, it was like very honestly
[00:31:28] profoundly damaging, like not to be like just allowed to be me, allowed to be for me to internalize
[00:31:35] the sense of curiosity about myself, and and get to know myself. Because what I did internalize
[00:31:41] was like, don't like, like this is bad, that is bad, don't do this, don't think that don't feel
[00:31:46] that. And all that trying to shape myself really screwed my life up and screwed my body up.
[00:31:52] And like now I've learned cognitively, I have to allow myself to be myself. And I'm
[00:31:57] working on internalizing that all physically. And as I work on internalizing that physically,
[00:32:03] my hip is very happy that I'm doing that. Like this stuff really, truly works. So
[00:32:10] yeah, I would say those are the basics.
[00:32:12] Can you describe that, especially that last part about attuning to yourself and living
[00:32:17] from more an authentic place, someone getting into this work, I think that usually is the
[00:32:23] maybe last tier that they get to, right? You're so right. Usually brain training is kind of the
[00:32:28] first thing that people start with. And then realize, oh, there's probably some more emotional work
[00:32:32] here. Okay, it's all the above, right? How do you describe to people, like what is it that
[00:32:39] attuning to your authentic self, how does that actually help the physical body?
[00:32:42] Yeah, okay. Pain is a danger signal. Like that is like a basic fact that pain and symptoms
[00:32:47] are danger signals. So the question is like, if we start with, why would believing there's
[00:32:51] something wrong with your body cause pain? Because believing something wrong with your body
[00:32:56] feels like danger to the body. So that causes pain. Why would emotions cause pain? Because
[00:33:02] if you don't want to feel your emotions and you're afraid of your emotions, when your emotions rise,
[00:33:06] yeah, you're not going to want to feel them and they're going to feel dangerous to your mind
[00:33:09] body system. So that's going to cause a danger signal. So yeah, so let's look at number three.
[00:33:13] Why would not being true to your authentic self cause a danger signal in the body?
[00:33:19] I think of it in two ways. One is that if you are not tuned in to who you are and that means
[00:33:30] you're like repressing who you are and who you are is like wherever you go, there you are.
[00:33:36] So that is going to be with you all the time, no matter what, no matter where, and if you are
[00:33:43] fighting to like keep yourself down and not be this way and not want that and not need this and
[00:33:49] like don't think like that and don't feel this. If you're fighting that all the time, those things
[00:33:55] are there, no matter what, like none of us can control that. I wouldn't be, if I could control
[00:34:00] exactly who I was, I would be such an awesome person, but like, but I can't. And so like,
[00:34:05] you know, I am awesome exactly as I am, but that's, but it's harder to accept me
[00:34:10] exactly as I am versus exactly who I think I would want to be. You know what I mean? So if you're,
[00:34:15] if you're not accepting who you are, you're fighting that all the time. And as it's rising,
[00:34:20] as you, as it's rising, it's like, it scares you and it causes a danger signal. So that,
[00:34:25] that's the one side. The other side is that if you're not acknowledging who you are,
[00:34:29] you're not doing the right things for yourself. Like maybe you're not in the right career.
[00:34:34] Maybe it could be big things like that. Maybe you're not in the right relationship.
[00:34:37] It could be smaller things, just like maybe you're constantly doing too much. You're constantly
[00:34:42] like doing more than you can handle. You're not listening to yourself. Something that I do,
[00:34:46] which is such a small example, is acid reflux is one of my symptom imperatives that I'll get
[00:34:51] just like here and there. And when I get it, it's a really extreme and then it's like really
[00:34:56] bad for like five minutes and it totally goes away. Maybe like, I don't know, once every two
[00:35:00] months. Many times I'm shoving food in my face just because I'm like doing a million things
[00:35:05] like, oh, let me, let me just quick, quick do this. And I will feel like, God, I need to wait. I need,
[00:35:10] I need to wait because my body that can't take this, but I don't. And I just keep eating. And
[00:35:14] then I'm like, Oh no, God, it's happening. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. So like even just
[00:35:19] not listening to basic, basic signals from your body, you're putting yourself in a position
[00:35:25] where like you're eating too much, you're doing too much, you're shoving too much in
[00:35:28] your face. You're maybe you're not doing enough, but you're in the wrong relationship,
[00:35:31] you're in the wrong job. You're doing stuff that you don't want to do. And so it feels your body
[00:35:38] doesn't want to do that. It puts your body in a state of danger when you're doing all the stuff
[00:35:42] you don't want to do. So that's how I would describe it. How did like, what do you think?
[00:35:46] Yeah, no, I think that was a great description. Find that to your point, a lot of times it
[00:35:51] can be subtle, right? I mean, it can be subtle. It doesn't have to be in these big
[00:35:55] ways of I'm living a completely opposite life than what I should be living.
[00:35:59] Um, but that it takes time and self reflection to know, okay, where am I dismissing myself?
[00:36:05] Where am I putting too much on or receiving too much, not setting enough boundaries? I don't
[00:36:10] know about you, but I do find, okay, at least for myself, and I think for a majority of people
[00:36:14] I work with, there is something big in life, some area of life, whether that is relationship,
[00:36:20] career, where you live, what you're doing that is off. Yeah, that you feel like you
[00:36:26] should be doing because you were kind of probably guided into that based on society
[00:36:31] and family and life. You know, it might not be this huge glaring thing where you're like,
[00:36:34] Oh my gosh, this is absolutely not what I should be doing. But at the same time,
[00:36:37] there's something that's not right about it. You're living inauthentically.
[00:36:41] Yeah, yeah. And sometimes that's hard. I feel like to acknowledge at least I can see that in
[00:36:47] some people and just recognize that they're not ready to see it yet. And that's okay. Yeah.
[00:36:51] You know, it's scary, really scary to acknowledge that.
[00:36:54] Totally, totally. Yeah, absolutely. That is an interesting question. Because there's the logic
[00:37:00] like you don't have to change anything about your life to recover from my body symptoms.
[00:37:05] But then I'm totally with you that I've had to make a lot of changes in my life. And I'm like,
[00:37:09] maybe over the course of my life, I assume that I will have to listen to my body and make
[00:37:15] more changes, you know? So that's an interesting duality. Because maybe some people don't have
[00:37:21] to make changes. I haven't made any drastic changes in my life, but I've made like drastic changes
[00:37:26] to my mindset and to like how I act. So yeah, that that is a hard one. Well, okay, can I ask you
[00:37:33] when you were talking about like the emotions coming to this work as a therapist and youth,
[00:37:37] you were thinking like, you know, I don't have any whatever it was the narratives like
[00:37:42] my emotions are fine. I am curious, like, what was that like for you?
[00:37:46] Yeah, I mean, very similar. I'm not even sure if I consciously thought like, you know,
[00:37:50] the emotional work isn't as much for me. It just kind of, I guess really I was avoiding it,
[00:37:55] probably, you know, my brain, my nervous system was avoiding it. But I think there was an element
[00:37:59] of I've been in therapy since I was like 15 years old and I'm aware and a therapist.
[00:38:04] But it wasn't until I recognized that it's not that I can't feel actually, yeah,
[00:38:13] there's an element of that. I wasn't fully allowing myself to go in the places that the feelings that
[00:38:17] I needed to, but it was the emotions I thought maybe didn't apply to me like the deeper anger,
[00:38:22] the despair, the grief that I probably thought like, oh, you know, I don't need to feel that
[00:38:29] because then I would be angry about a family member or a past relationship and they're not
[00:38:33] these horrible people. I don't need you to be that angry at them. But it's that unconscious,
[00:38:38] driven emotions that I didn't recognize where I wasn't feeling or wasn't truly aware of allowing
[00:38:45] myself to go there. So that was a huge pivotal point for me of recognizing I can feel those
[00:38:51] things and actually kind of have to get myself into feeling those sometimes to allow
[00:38:54] it to be there. And it doesn't mean that everything is horrible and these people are
[00:38:58] horribly bad and hurt me or whatever the situation is, right? It's just I can allow myself
[00:39:03] to feel those and be okay with that and then that releases within my body. And actually,
[00:39:09] I like the word integrate, integrate with my body more like being able to expand to feel it,
[00:39:14] to integrate it. Yeah, that was a big one. And honestly, I don't think it's talked about enough
[00:39:19] in therapy with therapists. I'm not sure how much of us really get there go there with
[00:39:24] clients. I'm not sure. I mean, obviously, that's a very general big generalization.
[00:39:28] Yeah, say more about what you mean by that, because I think I agree with you, but I'm like,
[00:39:32] what do you mean? Yeah, I mean, I didn't learn about that in school. I don't know about you,
[00:39:39] but like, I didn't learn about the depths of emotions and how to feel and be with and
[00:39:44] understand those really deeper ones that feel super scary. And people think, I'm not angry,
[00:39:50] I'm not an angry person, right? But actually, we all are, we all have it. Yeah, I don't know,
[00:39:55] never learned that, never understood it until this work. Same. No, same. This work has taken
[00:40:01] my own personal emotional expression so much deeper. And it's definitely taken my ability to like,
[00:40:08] sit with clients and be there for clients much deeper as well. Big time. And I'm so grateful
[00:40:13] for that. And no, they don't teach this in schools. And in fact, I look back on the
[00:40:17] first job that I ever had out of school, I was working at this like big, like high-pressured
[00:40:24] clinic in New York that was, you know, so many patients a day, so much paperwork, it was just
[00:40:30] like so much. And one of the million things we were supposed to keep in our brains, and we're
[00:40:34] all like new therapists who barely know what we're doing. And we're working in like a very
[00:40:38] hard environment where there's the volume was outrageous. And one of the things that we
[00:40:43] were expected to do was we had to, anybody who was diagnosed with depression, we would
[00:40:48] track their PHQ-9 score, which is, it's nine for people listening, that's nine questions,
[00:40:52] but there's nine symptoms of major depressive disorder. And so it's just like, you asked
[00:40:57] like, are you experiencing this symptom? One, two, three, four, five, down nine. So every week
[00:41:01] we'd have to give them this paper, they would have to fill it out. We would have to put
[00:41:04] it in the computer. And the goal, quote unquote, of the therapy was that we would get as an
[00:41:10] organization extra grant money for the amount of patients who dipped below a certain number
[00:41:17] on their PHQ-9 score after three months. So it was very, it was like drilled into us like,
[00:41:24] get these people's depression symptoms down and get it down quick, because we are not doing
[00:41:30] good work. If they're still depressed after three months, we'll, we won't get paid for it
[00:41:34] because it's bad work. And it's, you're only doing good work if you help the person
[00:41:38] feel better quick. And that's how we get money. And it was like, at the time, I thought that was
[00:41:42] stupid. Now looking back on that, I'm like, Oh my God, that was really stupid. Because it's exactly
[00:41:48] what I think you're talking about, which is like this sense that like emotions are somehow
[00:41:52] easy to deal with. And like just a couple months of therapy should clear it out and like
[00:41:57] start thinking more positive and solve the problems in your life. And like, you know,
[00:42:01] we did problem solving therapy, which I think is honestly stupid. And then we did
[00:42:05] cognitive behavioral therapy, which has a lot of benefit, but is, is, is definitely
[00:42:10] much more surface level than the stuff that we do in the mind, body space. And that's what's
[00:42:15] taught in schools and people, myself included, we don't know how to feel emotions. And I'm
[00:42:19] learning now at age, you know, now I'm in my late thirties. I'm like, so yeah, I'm learning
[00:42:24] now. It's nuts. It's nuts. I know, I know. And I think I really love the way that you
[00:42:29] outline the three different prongs, if you will, right, to this work, the safety in your
[00:42:35] body, safety with emotions and safety and authentic self. That's a clear picture of the
[00:42:41] different ways because it truly is, I have questions a lot of, do you think I can just
[00:42:45] do the brain training or I've done this program, but I don't know if it fully works
[00:42:48] like what, what elements works or, you know, some people talk about brain training
[00:42:53] only and some people talk about nervous system regulation and emotions, like what's true.
[00:42:57] And I say the same thing as like, it's all of the above, honestly, at least in my experience
[00:43:02] in the way that I approach it too. So yeah, same. Yeah, yeah, same, same. And I like,
[00:43:08] would never want to be like a provider in this world who don't do this. I mean, unless it's
[00:43:13] like the structural treatments, you know, where you're like thinking like something's wrong
[00:43:17] with my body, I've got to, I've got to fix it. You know, that I would say don't do. But
[00:43:21] like, you know, the idea of, I would just never say to someone like, like, don't do the
[00:43:26] brain retraining or don't worry about your emotions. Or like, you know, like there's,
[00:43:31] I just feel like I just wouldn't say that to someone because you never know. I mean,
[00:43:35] I don't know if you know, but like when a new client comes to me, I didn't, when I first start,
[00:43:41] I don't know what the issue is. Like it's simple enough that I'm like,
[00:43:45] we're looking under the category of like, you know, where's the danger signal coming
[00:43:49] from? We have the three prongs. I like the way you put it that way. So it's like,
[00:43:53] it's going to be in those categories. But it's like, I don't know. You know,
[00:43:56] like I can't tell you off the bat. I don't know. What do you think about that?
[00:43:59] You mean you don't know if they're like where the root is?
[00:44:02] Yeah. Like I can't tell like, is the problem like emotional is the problem that you
[00:44:07] you don't know yourself is the problem that there's a huge thing and that you're repressing
[00:44:12] emotionally that like needs to come out. You know, I'm like, I don't know at the
[00:44:15] beginning. Okay, this is not across the board. But I do think that for most people,
[00:44:19] there's an element of all three. It really is. I don't know if I can say there's like,
[00:44:23] yeah, like one thing, maybe there's one more glaring thing or more like something that's
[00:44:28] really standing out. Like I've had a couple people recently who have done some work in this
[00:44:32] area and other ways or a different coach or something. And so I can kind of see that they
[00:44:37] have a foundation of maybe some of maybe brain training, right? And I can tell usually when
[00:44:43] people are stuck is that they haven't touched the emotional. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:48] Yeah. That's kind of where sometimes I can pick it out. But yeah, I don't know the exact
[00:44:52] at first either. It's an exploration. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah. Okay, I feel like
[00:44:57] we could have a lot, a lot, a lot more. And we didn't even get to you talking about,
[00:45:02] okay, what is, how does doubt play into all of this? Right? So, okay, is there a brief way
[00:45:10] that we can talk about that real quick? Yeah, let me see if I can just do it quick.
[00:45:13] Can you make it quick? I'm not good at speaking briefly.
[00:45:18] Yeah. Also, I will be on your podcast soon. That's right. And we can also carry a conversation
[00:45:23] over there. Yeah, we can. So we do both. But yeah. I'm like, so if you're enjoying this.
[00:45:28] Exactly. Fine grace. Yeah. Fine grace on mind, body, medicine for chronic pain. We'll both be there.
[00:45:35] But I mean, I would just say briefly. Yeah. Over the past like
[00:45:40] two weeks, I would say, have just like been dealing with annoying emotional stuff
[00:45:45] and got like, and my hip has been acting up. And you know, I'm in a place now where like most,
[00:45:50] most of the time my hip is like, pretty good, get twinges, some days it hurts, but it's like,
[00:45:56] you know, pretty good. And then like, um, like a lot of times it's just kind of there,
[00:46:01] not a big deal. Like, um, I don't think about it. I don't notice it because it's just not in
[00:46:07] pain. You know, like a lot of times I really am just like doing pretty well with the hip.
[00:46:11] But for the past couple of weeks, I was really not. And it took a while to, for me to even really make
[00:46:17] sense of like, what is this? Why am I feeling this way? And then I was like, Oh my God, it's this
[00:46:22] emotional thing. And then I was like, okay, I felt through that emotional thing. And now I feel
[00:46:25] better. And I did feel better for like a day or two, but then it kept hurting. Then I was like,
[00:46:29] why is this still happening? And then a couple of days later, I was like, Oh my God, it's
[00:46:32] because the same emotional thing. I thought I felt through it, but, but there's so much more
[00:46:36] there. Like, who am I kidding myself? Like, what? I will say in this process, where I had many days
[00:46:42] in a row where my hip was hurting, I myself was like, wait, this has gotten better, right? Like,
[00:46:49] am I wrong? Like, I really believed that this was getting better. And in some cases I have
[00:46:55] believed that it was better. And now here I am days and days in a row where it's hurting,
[00:47:00] like, has this helped me at all? You know what I mean? Which then then I start thinking like,
[00:47:06] wait, this is all crazy. Like, what if this doesn't really work? Like, now I like do this
[00:47:12] professionally for my career. And like, it doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for anyone.
[00:47:18] And then I you know, I'm like deep in these like doubt spirals. And then I had that that whole
[00:47:24] thought process one night that was a very kind of like, Oh my God, what is happening? Oh,
[00:47:28] my God, what's wrong? And then I mean, I woke up the next day, but it was like, you are being
[00:47:34] completely ridiculous. Like, I mean, just look at your life, look at how much better your life
[00:47:38] like come on. Like, and then I have I keep a little gratitude journal with like, every day
[00:47:44] I'll write down just like three little things I'm grateful for. So many of the recent days,
[00:47:48] like, I mean, for the past several months have just like sprinkled in there's like,
[00:47:52] so glad my hip didn't hurt at all today. So grateful for a very low hip pain day,
[00:47:56] barely felt it at all. And I'm like, I did not make all of that up all the things that I can do
[00:48:02] now that I couldn't do before I'm not making this stuff really does work. So I just want to I did
[00:48:10] want to throw that out there for people that even for me where I'm like, I have a whole
[00:48:14] podcast about this and I do this professionally and I'm thinking to myself like, I'm a complete
[00:48:18] fraud. None of this even works. But it does that was just a deep doubt spiral. It does work.
[00:48:25] Thank you for naming that I have said probably in very similar words the same thing on here too.
[00:48:30] I've had the same feelings, especially, yeah, over the past year, a couple of different things have
[00:48:35] come up where I am like, I'm a fraud. I don't know what's happening. Like, what's what's going on with
[00:48:40] my body? I don't know what I'm doing anymore. I can't help people. Yeah, all the things.
[00:48:45] It's true. We can't be perfect. This is a I love actually forgot who exactly said this
[00:48:50] first, but it's a human condition. Everyone has some sort of mind body symptom. Yes, some of us
[00:48:56] a little more chronically than others. But yeah, it's a human condition. So we're always going to
[00:49:02] have some sort of message sent to our body or physical body that is more emotionally based.
[00:49:07] Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just about going. Totally. Totally. And thank you. It's good
[00:49:12] to know that I'm not alone in that. And of course, I'm not alone in that. But
[00:49:17] good to hear you say that. And I think it's good for your audience to hear that, to hear us say
[00:49:21] that because like even for us, like we do this professionally, we've both experienced so much
[00:49:28] like progress, results, healing as a result of this work. And yet still, when the symptoms act up,
[00:49:35] there's a part of the brain, like doubt is very powerful. There's a part of our brains that
[00:49:38] says like, this doesn't work at all. This doesn't work at all. That's wrong. It does work.
[00:49:43] And I just want your audience to take that in like, okay, it does work. We think that too,
[00:49:48] just because you think it doesn't mean it's true. Your brain is literally primed to look
[00:49:52] for what's wrong. So it's going to keep doing that. It's going to keep doing that.
[00:49:55] So good point. Just remember, remember. Good point. So thank you. Yeah. All right, Sean.
[00:49:59] I really have loved this conversation. Thank you for sharing your story. It's really powerful
[00:50:03] to hear how far you've come. And yeah, the fact that you're imperfect and it's not going to
[00:50:08] be like you're not healed forever. Yeah, yeah. But that you keep working with it. Yeah.
[00:50:15] I think you mentioned in the beginning, like where people can find you. Is there anything
[00:50:18] else you want to mention about that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I guess I did say that.
[00:50:22] Yes. If anyone wants to add another podcast to their rotation in addition to this awesome
[00:50:28] podcast, I have one, Mind Body Medicine for Chronic Pain, find it wherever you get your
[00:50:32] podcast. I think it's a great one. And Grace will be on it soon. So you can listen
[00:50:37] to that episode. And if you're looking for a therapist, that's something that I also,
[00:50:42] of course, offer. My website is mindbodymedicineforchronicpain.com, which I recognize is very long.
[00:50:48] Seanhershey.com, S-E-A-N-H-E-R-S-H-E-Y will take you to the same spot. So yeah.
[00:50:54] I'm also on Instagram, my gay therapist. I don't love Instagram, but I do post on there
[00:50:59] often enough. So my gay therapist, if you want to follow me there.
[00:51:02] Awesome. All right. Thank you again, Sean. And we will speak to you all soon.
[00:51:08] If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to me if you could do these couple
[00:51:12] things. One, go to the Heal with Grace Show page wherever you listen and tap the plus sign or
[00:51:17] click on the follow button so you don't miss an episode. It helps both of us out. While you're
[00:51:22] there, if you could give a five star review so that this podcast can reach more people,
[00:51:27] it would mean so much to me. So I can continue sharing episodes that help you
[00:51:32] as well as others. Thanks for listening. And I hope this brings you hope on your journey.