Episode 130
How to build Self Trust in Healing with Dr. Rita Gupta
Show notes
You've been to the specialists. You've done the tests. And you still feel like nobody really knows what's wrong — or how to fix it. That's not you failing. That's a gap in medicine that mind-body medicine chronic pain practitioners are finally starting to close.
Dr. Rita Gupta spent almost 20 years as a primary care physician watching her patients get sicker despite everything she offered. The referrals, the labs, the medications. She had access to every record, sat with them through every specialist visit. And she was watching people not get better. That wore on her.
Then she ruptured a disc in her neck and was told surgery was her only option. She didn't take it. She turned inward -> toward integrated medicine, mind-body work, pain reprocessing therapy, mindfulness. And she eventually left conventional medicine entirely to practice the kind of care she couldn't offer inside the system.
In this episode, we get into something that doesn't get talked about enough: self-trust as medicine. Not as a mindset hack or a feel-good concept. As an actual biological process that shifts your nervous system, lowers your threat response, and creates real relief.
Here's what changes when you stop trying to force your body into submission and learn to be with what's there instead: your threshold expands. The loop breaks. Your values become a compass instead of a source of grief.
Dr. Rita says it plainly – every time you can sit with a sensation without collapsing, you're building something. Not ignoring it. Not giving up. Building.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
– Alan Gordon / Pain Reprocessing Therapy
– Ellen Alden's Long COVID community
How to work with Grace:
- Practitioner Training-Mind Body Integtration Method Founding Cohort
- Mind-Body Healing Method Course – Regulate your nervous system now
- Free Masterclass: How to Know If Your Nervous System Is Behind Your Symptoms
- Work with us in private mind-body coaching
- Subscribe to my Substack for the deeper how-to's
Connect with Grace
Read the transcript
[00:00:00] We're always outsourcing our own inner wisdom
[00:00:02] because that's what the system has taught us to do.
[00:00:06] Like, you need to do the X, Y, and Z.
[00:00:08] It's so prescriptive.
[00:00:09] There's no collaboration.
[00:00:11] And then sometimes the system is so brainwashing
[00:00:14] that people even feel like
[00:00:16] they're supposed to be told what to do.
[00:00:18] I've had many patients,
[00:00:20] like if I try to be collaborative with them
[00:00:22] and no fault of their own,
[00:00:24] they'll say, well, you're the doctor.
[00:00:26] You tell me what to do.
[00:00:27] Because they've kind of gotten disconnected
[00:00:30] from their own internal wisdom.
[00:00:32] And then just the media and capitalism
[00:00:35] and it's like you need to buy X or Y or Z to be whole
[00:00:39] or to be beautiful or to be healthy or to be...
[00:00:42] So it's always this outsourced message of like,
[00:00:46] you're good enough, you're worth it, you're okay.
[00:00:49] So our systems are not helping the self-trust.
[00:00:53] And that is one of the biggest pieces.
[00:00:55] They're showing up and in paper like, okay,
[00:00:57] tell me how to change and tell me what to do, right?
[00:01:00] Yeah.
[00:01:02] I know it can be confusing in the beginning,
[00:01:04] especially if you've never trusted yourself of
[00:01:06] what does that even mean and how do I do that?
[00:01:09] But it will be the best medicine for you, long term.
[00:01:12] Hey there and welcome to the Heal With Grace podcast.
[00:01:16] I'm your host, Grace Secker,
[00:01:18] and I'm a holistic licensed therapist
[00:01:20] and nervous system coach who believes
[00:01:22] that the chronic and often unseen symptoms
[00:01:25] you're living with are a sign of something deeper going on.
[00:01:29] A sign that your nervous system needs attention.
[00:01:32] In each episode, I'll share the science
[00:01:34] behind the most common chronic health disorders
[00:01:36] plus holistic tips using mental, physical
[00:01:39] and spiritual practices.
[00:01:40] You'll hear what I've learned in my journey
[00:01:42] and the true stories from our trusted guests
[00:01:45] so you can feel less alone in your experience
[00:01:47] and give yourself grace no matter what you're going through.
[00:01:50] So without further ado, settle in and get cozy.
[00:01:53] It's time to heal with grace.
[00:01:55] Hi, Dr. Rita.
[00:01:56] Thank you so much for coming on the Heal With Grace podcast.
[00:01:59] I'm excited for today's episode.
[00:02:01] Yeah, I'm so happy to be here with you.
[00:02:03] Thanks for having me.
[00:02:05] You are welcome.
[00:02:06] It's been some time, like a while for us to connect.
[00:02:09] We've gone back and forth about it
[00:02:10] and scheduling stuff and so it's definitely time.
[00:02:13] And I first saw you at the AT&S conference last year
[00:02:17] when you were speaking with Monica, I think.
[00:02:19] Yeah, I didn't believe it was so long ago now
[00:02:23] with like, yesterday.
[00:02:25] I know, I know.
[00:02:26] Yeah, and I thought it was wonderful
[00:02:28] and so I know that it would be a great episode
[00:02:30] to have you on.
[00:02:31] So let's first have you introduce yourself,
[00:02:34] tell us a little bit about you,
[00:02:35] how you came into this field and yeah, we'll go from there.
[00:02:40] Sounds great.
[00:02:41] So just a little background on me.
[00:02:43] I feel like I always have to start
[00:02:45] with what I was studying in undergrad
[00:02:48] before I became a doctor because it kind of gives me
[00:02:51] you know how when you can connect the dots,
[00:02:54] like even far back to our childhood
[00:02:57] and just like we're meant to be on this path.
[00:03:01] Yep.
[00:03:01] And it's a calling.
[00:03:02] And I know that you understand that
[00:03:04] and that's why I love being here with you today.
[00:03:07] But yeah, so like in college,
[00:03:09] I actually was a French literature major
[00:03:12] and I just loved story.
[00:03:15] Like I just loved hearing, you know,
[00:03:18] like I read some great works of art and literature
[00:03:22] like Emile Zola and Lotria Ma.
[00:03:25] I love the story and looking at like people's inner worlds.
[00:03:30] Like what's going on in their conscious and subconscious
[00:03:36] and like what were their motivations?
[00:03:39] What were their fears?
[00:03:40] And it really was kind of what brought me to medicine
[00:03:44] because medicine is of course science,
[00:03:47] but it's also such an art and it's a practice
[00:03:51] and it's really about understanding humanity
[00:03:55] and the human condition.
[00:03:58] And so as I was a primary care physician
[00:04:02] for almost 20 years, I started seeing a huge pattern.
[00:04:07] I started seeing like my patients were still suffering
[00:04:10] even though like I was offering them all the tests
[00:04:14] and diagnostics and medications and procedures
[00:04:18] and one of the things, you know,
[00:04:20] a lot of my colleagues have said in this field too
[00:04:23] is that as a primary care physician,
[00:04:26] patients come back to us.
[00:04:27] No, we will send them to the specialists
[00:04:29] but we kind of see the whole picture.
[00:04:31] And so I was seeing this pattern of,
[00:04:34] and you know, I have access to all their medical records.
[00:04:37] So I would have access to their, you know,
[00:04:39] all their neurology notes
[00:04:42] or their gastroenterology notes,
[00:04:44] they're all the different, you know, specialists they saw.
[00:04:47] And it was like, I was like kind of with there,
[00:04:51] like sitting next to them in their journey.
[00:04:54] And it was really, like it was really demoralizing.
[00:04:59] I mean, just to be very honest and open about it
[00:05:02] because I wanted to be able to quote unquote,
[00:05:07] fix their problems.
[00:05:08] I wanted to be able to help them.
[00:05:11] And I really realized that I was not helping them.
[00:05:16] And I saw this big gap in cracks and medicine.
[00:05:22] And I think life gives us what we need sometimes.
[00:05:26] I try to look at it that way
[00:05:27] and I had my own injury and my own pain.
[00:05:32] And I think it wasn't just a coincidence that I did
[00:05:36] because it also was kind of me carrying
[00:05:40] all of that experience of what I saw my patients go through.
[00:05:44] It's almost like life gave me the pain
[00:05:48] because that's when I couldn't even physically go on
[00:05:53] because of my own health issues.
[00:05:55] And I became in my patient shoes,
[00:05:58] like looking for every option, like how do I fix this?
[00:06:02] How do I get better?
[00:06:05] I ruptured a disc in my neck
[00:06:07] and basically was almost like toll surgery
[00:06:11] was my only option.
[00:06:13] So it led me to my own path
[00:06:16] and I pursued integrated medicine, mind body medicine.
[00:06:20] And I could probably go on for the whole hour
[00:06:23] about my story, but basically it's what really
[00:06:27] brought me to this work.
[00:06:28] And it's really been life changing for me
[00:06:32] for my career because it's brought me tools
[00:06:35] and a way to help my patients get better
[00:06:38] and also for me to live a better life.
[00:06:41] So there's so much gift in that,
[00:06:44] but of course it comes at a lot of suffering
[00:06:47] and struggle and lived experience.
[00:06:51] But I mean, we can bring that to our patients and clients.
[00:06:55] Exactly.
[00:06:56] I mean, there's two things.
[00:06:57] One, I would wanna hear more
[00:06:58] because I especially being a primary care doctor,
[00:07:02] you just don't hear that enough, right?
[00:07:05] Being in this world, I've talked to many,
[00:07:07] but it's rare, right?
[00:07:09] It's rare for you to open up the possibility
[00:07:12] of how can I help someone?
[00:07:14] And then also obviously how can I help myself
[00:07:15] when you're going through it in your own body?
[00:07:19] And so I just think it's really, really powerful
[00:07:22] to hear that from someone in medicine
[00:07:25] to have them open up to, yeah,
[00:07:27] there's plenty of ways to help someone, right?
[00:07:30] And what you were seeing wasn't really helping
[00:07:33] as much as maybe you wanted or thought it could.
[00:07:35] So first and foremost, thank you for doing that,
[00:07:37] for opening up.
[00:07:38] And also how far into being a doctor
[00:07:41] did you have your own journey
[00:07:43] and then how did you find the mind-body medicine world?
[00:07:46] Yeah, I wish it was sooner,
[00:07:49] but I was already pretty much practicing
[00:07:52] for almost 15 years at that point.
[00:07:54] And I was very much the push through,
[00:07:58] like my body needed to obey me basically
[00:08:02] and my head was disconnected from my body.
[00:08:06] So I was just really much into,
[00:08:10] a lot of times we go into these healing professions,
[00:08:13] of course we wanna make a difference,
[00:08:14] we wanna serve others,
[00:08:16] but there are some deeper wounds of why we go into this.
[00:08:20] We feel we have to prove our self worth,
[00:08:23] like by helping others, by being of service.
[00:08:26] So I had some deeper wounds where I felt like
[00:08:29] I needed to prove that I was good enough,
[00:08:33] that I was capable enough to be in this position
[00:08:36] of serving and being in an intimate relationship
[00:08:41] with my patients because it is a privilege
[00:08:44] to know so much as you know in your field
[00:08:47] about people's lives.
[00:08:48] And it's a lot of responsibility too.
[00:08:51] So I think I had those deeper wounds
[00:08:55] and I also think that my chronic pain journey
[00:08:58] was me drawing attention to those wounds.
[00:09:01] So it did take a while for me to get into it.
[00:09:04] And it's a process, it wasn't linear.
[00:09:07] There was a lot of questioning and turns and twists
[00:09:12] and there still are, but it's really rewarding.
[00:09:17] Yeah, yeah.
[00:09:18] And so now what is your focus in primary care?
[00:09:22] Is it general, is it my body?
[00:09:24] Like how do you help people now?
[00:09:26] Yeah, so now I've actually left my role
[00:09:29] as a primary care physician
[00:09:31] and completely focused on the mind-body approach,
[00:09:34] mind-body medicine, neuroplastic medicine
[00:09:38] and really integrating all the modalities I've learned
[00:09:41] like even from just integrated medicine
[00:09:45] where it's Ayurveda and traditional Chinese medicine
[00:09:49] to also integrating like PRT,
[00:09:52] pain reprocessing therapy, emotional awareness.
[00:09:54] And also I'm almost completing my mindfulness
[00:09:58] and meditation teacher certification.
[00:10:00] It's connected to your journey.
[00:10:02] So I really feel like that has really helped me
[00:10:07] in deepening my PRT work and also emotional work.
[00:10:11] So it's really just integrating everything
[00:10:15] and my lived experience and just my experience
[00:10:18] of being with a primary doctor as well.
[00:10:22] Sounds like we're similar and exploring
[00:10:24] different modalities and blending them.
[00:10:28] I mean, I have so many ideas of oh, I want to do that training
[00:10:32] or I want to, I almost went down the functional route,
[00:10:35] medicine route one time or integrative route
[00:10:38] and then this and there's so many things
[00:10:40] and just even having like there's that student fire
[00:10:44] within you of wanting to understand, right?
[00:10:46] And learn and experience for yourself
[00:10:49] and then bringing it to the people that you help,
[00:10:51] which is I think one of the most powerful things
[00:10:54] you can do as a helper as a healer.
[00:10:58] Yeah, I agree.
[00:11:00] Yeah, there is that fire, like you said, just to learn.
[00:11:05] And it's fun, you know, like it's really fun
[00:11:09] when you can help people and they get better
[00:11:12] and you learn information and it changes you
[00:11:16] like psychologically and physiologically
[00:11:19] and it just makes you excited.
[00:11:22] You know what I mean?
[00:11:23] It's just like there's hope, there's a way.
[00:11:26] And I love how this work is so personal and individual too.
[00:11:30] It's just, you know, a lot of times in medicine
[00:11:33] we need the algorithms because, you know,
[00:11:37] that's how we get out traumas or acute situations.
[00:11:41] I don't know if you watched the pit.
[00:11:43] It's a, you know, my partner keeps telling me about it,
[00:11:47] but I have my own response to watching medical shows.
[00:11:50] So I just, it's a little too much for me,
[00:11:52] a little too much drama.
[00:11:53] I don't blame you because it can be like,
[00:11:56] it's actually like not to digress,
[00:11:58] but for me it's been kind of educational
[00:12:01] because it made me realize how disconnected I was
[00:12:04] because you're just like going from your shifting
[00:12:07] from like one thing to another thing to another,
[00:12:10] you know, where you're telling someone
[00:12:11] like life and death news to, you know,
[00:12:14] dealing with some acute situation
[00:12:17] to like dealing with someone's grandmother
[00:12:19] who's just telling you about, you know, something sweet.
[00:12:23] Like it's just a lot of chaos, but anyway.
[00:12:28] But yeah, so it just gives,
[00:12:30] I don't know where I was going with that, but.
[00:12:32] Yeah, I mean, well, bringing it back
[00:12:34] to what you do now, right?
[00:12:35] Integrating and helping people and it may be
[00:12:37] in a different way instead of being so disconnected
[00:12:39] from how you're approaching.
[00:12:41] Yeah.
[00:12:42] Yeah.
[00:12:43] Yeah.
[00:12:44] So one of the topics I wanted to get into today
[00:12:47] was two things that kind of overlap.
[00:12:49] One, you talked about recently how
[00:12:52] the more that we either push away pain or fight pain
[00:12:55] or categorize it as bad or chronic, right?
[00:12:58] The less we actually have capacity for it,
[00:13:01] maybe we become more sensitive to it,
[00:13:03] which I say, I think we should talk about that
[00:13:06] because I say that and I'm like,
[00:13:07] ooh, people are gonna hear this and think I'm telling
[00:13:09] them they just have a low capacity for pain
[00:13:11] or they're too sensitive, right?
[00:13:13] Which is not the case.
[00:13:15] Let's start there before I get ahead of myself.
[00:13:17] Like what would you say to someone who is like,
[00:13:20] no, it's not, I'm not too sensitive or like,
[00:13:23] I don't have a low threshold for pain.
[00:13:24] What are you talking about?
[00:13:25] I have so much pain.
[00:13:26] How would you approach that?
[00:13:29] Yeah.
[00:13:30] I mean, first of all, like I always start
[00:13:32] with like just the experience of living
[00:13:35] with that type of discomfort, like, and so unpredictable
[00:13:39] and it's so relentless, it's really hard.
[00:13:43] I mean, it's really, really hard.
[00:13:45] And it's not about being sensitive,
[00:13:48] it's just being, it's biological and it's neurological.
[00:13:52] Like your body is in constant threat, stress,
[00:13:58] discomfort, I mean, there's no space.
[00:14:01] And it's really hard to feel a connection
[00:14:04] or relationship to yourself or your inner world
[00:14:09] or, you know, I like to sometimes say our true selves.
[00:14:13] It's really that, that gets really muddied.
[00:14:16] And I think the more we try to fix or avoid
[00:14:21] that creates more of a threat response in our system.
[00:14:24] So then it just that threshold gets lower and lower
[00:14:28] and it's basically a loop, like bringing awareness
[00:14:32] to that alone could be very healing.
[00:14:37] Yeah, exactly.
[00:14:38] I was with a new client yesterday
[00:14:40] and she was saying something kind of similar to this,
[00:14:42] like she's been in my program learning
[00:14:45] some of the tools and the skills.
[00:14:47] She was like, I just, meditation just does not,
[00:14:49] I can't do it very well.
[00:14:50] I just have too much pain when I sit there
[00:14:53] and I can't pay attention.
[00:14:55] And as we did it in session,
[00:14:57] it was more of a recognition that,
[00:15:00] yeah, when she quieted down and closed her eyes,
[00:15:04] then the sensation of what she was experiencing in her body,
[00:15:07] which she categorized as pain was increasing.
[00:15:10] And so then of course you automatically, biologically,
[00:15:12] right, you say, oh, that's bad, that's wrong.
[00:15:15] That's not okay.
[00:15:16] This is too much.
[00:15:18] And that's, I'm guessing kind of what you're saying is,
[00:15:20] yeah, obviously that's hard, right?
[00:15:24] What we know with pain science, with PRT
[00:15:27] and what we do is breaking that cycle
[00:15:31] is actually what helps decrease it, right?
[00:15:34] And it just made me think of that
[00:15:36] because that's exactly what was happening yesterday
[00:15:38] where it was like, she's just really afraid
[00:15:40] of going into that, which understandably so, obviously.
[00:15:43] But as you mentioned, like our expanding ourselves, right?
[00:15:46] Expanding that capacity to be with it
[00:15:48] actually dials it down.
[00:15:50] Yeah.
[00:15:51] But it's like we have to go into the unknown
[00:15:54] or the uncertainty to get to that place.
[00:15:57] So it's like that dip down.
[00:15:59] But I think just bringing awareness is the first step,
[00:16:03] is just saying like, I am resisting that.
[00:16:06] I am resisting the being with,
[00:16:10] instead of that noise of like, it's too loud,
[00:16:14] I have to stop.
[00:16:15] Like you're seeing that nuance.
[00:16:17] There's a little bit of, it's subtle,
[00:16:19] but there's a little bit of space there.
[00:16:22] And if we can keep going there slowly and slowly,
[00:16:26] because I think we talked before we decided to meet
[00:16:30] about what we were gonna talk about
[00:16:31] when we said self-trust and how do we build self-trust
[00:16:35] when we're in so much pain and so many symptoms?
[00:16:39] I think it's what you're touching on is
[00:16:41] when we can be with that pain
[00:16:45] and not collapse or even open up
[00:16:48] just even like we use the 1% or the 5%,
[00:16:52] but it's really, that's how we rebuild self-trust
[00:16:56] because it's not like something we have or we don't have.
[00:16:59] It's something that kind of ebbs and flows.
[00:17:01] So it's, you know what I mean?
[00:17:03] It's there, it's just we kind of have to rebuild it.
[00:17:07] And so when we can just be with that sensation
[00:17:11] and know that we can be okay, like I can handle this,
[00:17:15] that's how we build that trust in ourselves.
[00:17:18] And then that's also how we kind of have relationship
[00:17:23] to our authentic self is through self-trust.
[00:17:26] The process of self-trust is where we really discover
[00:17:29] who we really are and wanna be in the world,
[00:17:33] our deeper purpose.
[00:17:34] That's what, so for someone listening who's like,
[00:17:38] okay, I'm tapping into this work, right?
[00:17:40] I'm starting to understand that there's a mind body
[00:17:44] or like a nervous system component
[00:17:46] to what I'm experiencing.
[00:17:47] The concept of self-trust might not even be
[00:17:49] in their vocabulary, right?
[00:17:51] So how would you broach that with them of like, okay,
[00:17:56] the reason we're taught, when they're like,
[00:17:58] well, I'm just having these physical sensations.
[00:18:00] What do you talk about self-trust?
[00:18:01] How do you talk to them about, okay, actually,
[00:18:04] there's probably a lack of trust
[00:18:05] which is actually increasing that cycle
[00:18:07] of fear in your body.
[00:18:08] Yeah.
[00:18:09] Yeah.
[00:18:11] I would kind of go to other areas like,
[00:18:15] what are your values?
[00:18:17] What do you care about?
[00:18:18] What matters?
[00:18:20] Because that kind of intention sets a direction
[00:18:24] towards what's important to us.
[00:18:26] And sometimes self-trust is about kind of just
[00:18:29] being in alignment with what's important to us.
[00:18:32] What matters?
[00:18:33] Cause you'll hear that in people like I was sharing
[00:18:36] with my story and your story probably too.
[00:18:38] Cause like when we get ill or we have
[00:18:41] a really big life challenge or we suffer,
[00:18:45] we start realizing like, what is really important to us?
[00:18:49] What matters?
[00:18:50] What do we value?
[00:18:52] Then that becomes our guide.
[00:18:54] And then we can even look at emotions too.
[00:18:57] Emotions are really valuable information.
[00:19:00] I mean, sometimes when I'm really scared
[00:19:02] about something, it actually can tell me like,
[00:19:06] well, this really matters to me right now
[00:19:09] because I wouldn't be scared right now
[00:19:10] if it didn't matter to me.
[00:19:12] What's underneath that?
[00:19:16] And maybe there is some other emotion
[00:19:19] or a belief or it's a doorway.
[00:19:24] Yeah.
[00:19:25] I like that.
[00:19:26] Yeah, like that in with values, right?
[00:19:29] And because when you're not living within
[00:19:33] what you value, it is harder to trust yourself
[00:19:35] or even have that, right?
[00:19:37] Cause you're not trusting that you're living in alignment.
[00:19:39] And so why do you think it is like in the beginning
[00:19:43] when someone, when you're going through maybe your story,
[00:19:45] like when you were going through this journey,
[00:19:46] why does it make you confront that,
[00:19:49] confront why you're not living in alignment?
[00:19:52] And yeah.
[00:19:54] I think it goes to that idea
[00:19:56] that like if things are status quo in our life,
[00:20:00] it's really hard to change because change is uncomfortable
[00:20:03] and it requires us going into the unknown.
[00:20:08] Even great, even good changes,
[00:20:10] even exciting events in our life can be very stressful
[00:20:13] because our brain, as we know with the neuroscience,
[00:20:17] loves predictability, loves, you know,
[00:20:20] to know what's gonna happen for certain.
[00:20:23] And I think that when we feel uncomfortable,
[00:20:30] it can be really challenging.
[00:20:32] But when we get a life-changing event or, you know,
[00:20:35] they say everybody goes through this
[00:20:38] at some point in their life,
[00:20:39] some catastrophic or life-changing or really hard time,
[00:20:43] whether it's illness or loss or, you know,
[00:20:47] it could be anything.
[00:20:49] And I think it's, that's what pushes us
[00:20:52] because that the comparison of what we're going through
[00:20:56] to having to change,
[00:20:58] the change is less uncomfortable
[00:21:01] than what we're going through.
[00:21:04] Basically that's, and that's where we get that entry point.
[00:21:08] So that's why there is almost like a gift
[00:21:11] or, you know, we can call it even the hero
[00:21:14] or heroine's journey, like in that transformation,
[00:21:18] it's our doorway to living the life we really wanna live
[00:21:22] because we really go deep
[00:21:24] and then we go really matters to me right now.
[00:21:26] It's like when we're in those, and not to be dramatic
[00:21:29] but sometimes those life and death situations,
[00:21:32] what do we think about?
[00:21:33] We think about what really matters.
[00:21:36] You know, you hear stories about people on their,
[00:21:40] you know, unfortunately like last days of life,
[00:21:43] they really talk about what really matters.
[00:21:47] And so, so yeah, that's what I would say on that.
[00:21:50] Going through, you're right,
[00:21:51] specifically with pain and illness,
[00:21:55] this journey that we help people with
[00:21:57] going in the mind, our body journey
[00:21:58] and that you and I both have been on,
[00:22:01] it is life changing and there's a reason for that.
[00:22:03] And there's a reason why a lot of us can say,
[00:22:05] actually we're grateful for that journey
[00:22:07] where if you're in the beginning of it
[00:22:08] or you're in the middle of it,
[00:22:09] you may not be able to see that
[00:22:11] but it's really true.
[00:22:13] It helps you actually get into the life
[00:22:16] that is more in alignment with yourself
[00:22:20] where maybe you didn't realize that before.
[00:22:22] I talked to a lot of people that are like,
[00:22:24] I don't know, things were fine.
[00:22:26] Yeah.
[00:22:26] Why am I having this?
[00:22:28] And so you can't always see it,
[00:22:31] but that's why it's there.
[00:22:32] Like I love that you said that.
[00:22:33] I mean, we have to get uncomfortable to make a change.
[00:22:36] We're not just gonna wake up one day
[00:22:38] and change our life for a random reason.
[00:22:43] Yeah.
[00:22:46] It's not about willpower or being strong or weak
[00:22:50] or it's biological.
[00:22:52] We're wired for that.
[00:22:53] Like we're not gonna uproot everything
[00:22:57] unless we're really uncomfortable
[00:23:00] and our system is like, well, we have no choice.
[00:23:05] We literally have no choice.
[00:23:07] What did it look like for you
[00:23:08] when you confronted maybe your values
[00:23:11] or your trust with yourself?
[00:23:12] Like how did you move through that
[00:23:15] and how did it help your own self-trust?
[00:23:17] I think anchoring into my values really helped
[00:23:20] because when I felt that I was living in integrity
[00:23:26] with my authentic self of like what mattered to me
[00:23:29] in terms of like how I wanted to show up
[00:23:31] for my family, you know, for my husband,
[00:23:35] for my daughter, for my extended family friends.
[00:23:38] Like I wanted to be somebody who could feel honest
[00:23:43] in what I was saying.
[00:23:45] And I think when I did leave my role where I was before,
[00:23:50] I didn't feel like that alignment sometimes
[00:23:54] because I was not offering the medicine
[00:23:57] I felt my patients or clients needed
[00:24:01] because of the structure I was in.
[00:24:04] And this is not to like dismiss the structure I was in
[00:24:08] was functional and it was worthwhile and it was valuable
[00:24:12] but that's what made me realize I needed to make a change
[00:24:17] and be an integrity with myself.
[00:24:19] And of course it's like timing of life, you know,
[00:24:21] I'm like already done 20 years in that model
[00:24:25] but I really found it to be liberating
[00:24:28] and in alignment with my values
[00:24:31] the way I'm showing up for clients now,
[00:24:35] the way I'm practicing now.
[00:24:37] And so I didn't realize how like you said
[00:24:40] you don't realize it but when I did that
[00:24:43] I felt a huge shift in my body.
[00:24:45] Like I just felt like this,
[00:24:47] like my shoulders were like finally like, wow,
[00:24:50] I'm doing what is valuable to me,
[00:24:53] what is meaningful to me.
[00:24:54] I know this may sound like, you know,
[00:24:57] I'm just shifting gears a little bit
[00:24:59] but to me it was a really physiological change too.
[00:25:03] And I noticed that I was less irritable with my family.
[00:25:07] Like I just noticed so many levels
[00:25:10] like I showed up more like Rita, you know
[00:25:14] by making that change.
[00:25:15] And it was a really difficult change for me
[00:25:18] cause I had, you know, it's like
[00:25:19] when you've been on a certain path for 20 years
[00:25:22] to like steer the car off that path.
[00:25:24] And I had doubts and I had my brain, you know
[00:25:28] my skeptical brain kept saying, gosh, like what are you
[00:25:32] doing?
[00:25:33] Like you should just be thinking about retirement now
[00:25:36] and getting all your ducks in a row and yeah.
[00:25:41] Yeah.
[00:25:42] It's a change like that,
[00:25:43] a change that your body brings about for you
[00:25:46] through pain and illness like to get your attention.
[00:25:50] It's never going to be like, oh, I realize I should,
[00:25:53] I want to make a change to be more in alignment
[00:25:55] with my values in my life.
[00:25:57] And okay, cool.
[00:25:58] Now it's great.
[00:25:59] And it all fits together.
[00:26:00] And the puzzle pieces work, puzzle pieces work, right?
[00:26:03] It doesn't work that way.
[00:26:05] I've never heard anyone talk about it that way, right?
[00:26:08] Yeah, exactly.
[00:26:09] Back and forth to challenge you to really like
[00:26:12] to challenge, okay, is this actually right?
[00:26:14] Is this, you know, is this important?
[00:26:16] And the question I get, I get right for myself all the time
[00:26:19] is do you feel like you had to make that change
[00:26:22] in your life for your body to have a reduction
[00:26:24] in symptoms, whatever your symptoms might have been?
[00:26:27] Do you feel like that was important
[00:26:29] or do you think that, I mean, you can't know
[00:26:31] because you didn't stay, but, you know
[00:26:34] the question is like, do I have to make a life change
[00:26:36] for my symptoms to subside?
[00:26:38] How do you approach it?
[00:26:40] I think for me, I did.
[00:26:42] Like you said, for all the puzzle pieces to fit
[00:26:45] that resonates a lot because, you know
[00:26:47] there are gonna be some, I don't even wanna say good days
[00:26:49] or bad days, there can be moments
[00:26:51] where even in a moment you're like
[00:26:53] I'm having a symptom or something happens
[00:26:56] and then like 30 minutes later, it's like, okay, I'm fine.
[00:27:00] It can be so fluctuate, but I think overall like
[00:27:06] I can move in the world and show up in the world
[00:27:09] in such a more useful way that that impacts my body greatly.
[00:27:17] I have seen in my clients that when we can listen
[00:27:21] to our body sensations and advocate for ourselves
[00:27:26] it does affect our symptoms.
[00:27:29] It does create relief.
[00:27:31] And, but I always love what Alan Gordon has said.
[00:27:36] I don't know if he wrote that in his book
[00:27:38] where he told us in one of the trainings,
[00:27:40] but he's like, I don't really care
[00:27:42] what happens to your symptoms.
[00:27:43] I just care about how you relate to your symptoms.
[00:27:47] And I really feel like that is how I approach this work
[00:27:52] because I don't like to say your symptoms
[00:27:55] are gonna go away or you're gonna get relief.
[00:27:58] I mean, I hope you do, but I can't control that.
[00:28:02] I really can't.
[00:28:03] Like it's like if I prescribed a medication
[00:28:05] to someone, I can't control that they're gonna get better.
[00:28:09] Maybe 90% of people do and they might,
[00:28:12] but if I can change their relationship to their symptoms,
[00:28:15] so I think he also said like,
[00:28:17] I don't want you to care about your symptoms too.
[00:28:20] Doesn't he say like a phrase like that?
[00:28:22] Yeah, maybe that's what it was exactly.
[00:28:25] I don't wanna misquote him on this podcast.
[00:28:28] But basically-
[00:28:28] The general project, the general idea, yeah.
[00:28:31] Yeah, but basically it's not like I can have my pain,
[00:28:35] but I won't seize up about it
[00:28:38] or I won't make a meaning about it or I won't,
[00:28:42] I'm just like, okay, here you are.
[00:28:45] Maybe this is telling me I need to take a break
[00:28:47] or maybe this is telling me like that
[00:28:51] I just wanna say hi to you
[00:28:52] or maybe this is telling me I'm hungry.
[00:28:55] I don't know.
[00:28:57] There's lots of that emotional charge with the symptom
[00:29:01] if that makes sense.
[00:29:03] Yeah.
[00:29:04] Yeah.
[00:29:05] I think about the capacity you brought up earlier.
[00:29:07] It's trusting that my body knows how to take care of me
[00:29:13] and my body knows how to tell me how to take care of it
[00:29:16] and I can trust in that.
[00:29:21] Yeah.
[00:29:22] As you're saying that, what just came to mind for me,
[00:29:24] which I think about a lot
[00:29:26] even before my days of specializing in this
[00:29:28] and just being a therapist, a mental health therapist
[00:29:31] is like what you just said,
[00:29:33] I thought, man, if we could just teach that like in schools,
[00:29:38] it's not that complex of a concept, right?
[00:29:42] Learning that our bodies are ever evolving and wise
[00:29:45] and have a different relationship with our symptoms,
[00:29:47] our bodies or whatever is happening in our life.
[00:29:50] That is just, man, that would change so much.
[00:29:55] And so when you're saying that and just like, yeah,
[00:29:57] that would be, that's so much of this work.
[00:30:01] It's so much of teaching and educating people
[00:30:03] about how to have a different relationship with your symptoms,
[00:30:06] with yourself, with your values,
[00:30:10] with the people in your life
[00:30:11] or your career, your job, whatever's happening, right?
[00:30:15] Instead of trying to force it or make it be a certain way,
[00:30:18] because that doesn't work very well.
[00:30:21] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:30:23] You said it really great.
[00:30:24] And as you were talking,
[00:30:25] I just realized like pretty much the supplies
[00:30:28] to every area of life, right?
[00:30:30] Like relationships, circumstances, situations,
[00:30:34] it's not like we're saying give up your agency
[00:30:37] or giving up your free will.
[00:30:39] It's really about just not trying to force and control
[00:30:44] and like finding that you said it actually so well.
[00:30:50] Well, I think actually what you're saying is,
[00:30:52] it's actually the opposite.
[00:30:53] It's actually giving voice to what is your true voice,
[00:30:58] right? More agency and authority at a voice.
[00:31:02] Instead of being either suppressed, especially,
[00:31:06] and that's very common,
[00:31:07] or just expecting that voice or ourselves
[00:31:10] to be someone that we're not really,
[00:31:12] just based on what we've learned,
[00:31:13] we thought we should be or who we should be.
[00:31:16] So it's more about, yeah,
[00:31:18] giving that sense of self and agency and authority.
[00:31:21] Yeah, and trusting our voice, yeah.
[00:31:26] Yeah.
[00:31:27] Which exactly that is,
[00:31:29] I think self-trust ends up coming in a little bit later
[00:31:32] in this journey, depending on the person.
[00:31:34] I think sometimes in the beginning,
[00:31:35] it's really just stabilizing
[00:31:37] and understanding the pain science
[00:31:38] and your brain and body connection.
[00:31:41] But really throughout the whole process,
[00:31:43] you are learning to trust yourself more,
[00:31:45] regardless of the phase.
[00:31:46] Are you in the education phase
[00:31:48] and just learning about this stuff?
[00:31:49] Are you kind of retraining your brain a little bit
[00:31:52] and stabilizing, grounding yourself?
[00:31:56] Or are you diving deep into your values
[00:31:58] and your parts and who you are?
[00:32:01] I mean, it all goes together,
[00:32:02] but I think for a while, some people are like,
[00:32:04] oh, I'll get to the deeper stuff when I get there.
[00:32:06] But it's all throughout.
[00:32:10] How do you see that?
[00:32:10] How do you see the self-trust piece
[00:32:12] going into all this?
[00:32:14] Yeah, I think you name something really important
[00:32:16] and that it's happening throughout,
[00:32:18] even if we're not naming or consciously acknowledging it.
[00:32:23] We are trusting ourselves just by even starting the journey
[00:32:26] and learning the pain science
[00:32:28] and seeing how the evidence of the neuroplasticity
[00:32:32] and the symptoms, it's already the process of starting.
[00:32:37] And I think we just know how to trust ourselves too.
[00:32:40] We're biologically wired to,
[00:32:42] but all the modern-day world,
[00:32:45] I mean, we live in systems
[00:32:47] that don't really tell us that it's okay to trust ourselves.
[00:32:51] Even the medical system,
[00:32:53] we're always outsourcing our own inner wisdom
[00:32:56] because that's what the system has taught us to do.
[00:32:59] Like, oh, well, you need to do the X, Y, and Z.
[00:33:02] It's so prescriptive.
[00:33:04] It's so like, there's no collaboration or, you know,
[00:33:09] and then sometimes the system is so brainwashing
[00:33:12] that people even feel like
[00:33:14] they're supposed to be told what to do.
[00:33:16] Like I've had many patients,
[00:33:18] like if I try to be collaborative with them
[00:33:20] and no fault of their own,
[00:33:22] they'll say, well, you're the doctor.
[00:33:24] You tell me what to do.
[00:33:27] Because it's like they've kind of gotten disconnected
[00:33:30] from their own internal wisdom.
[00:33:32] And then just the media and capitalism
[00:33:35] and it's like you need to buy X or Y or Z to be whole
[00:33:39] or to be beautiful or to be healthy or to be...
[00:33:43] So it's always this outsourced message of like,
[00:33:47] you're good enough, you're worth it, you're okay.
[00:33:50] So our systems are not helping the self-trust.
[00:33:55] And that is one of the biggest pieces, obviously.
[00:33:59] Obviously it's a little bit different.
[00:34:00] I feel like when people come to therapy,
[00:34:02] they have some sort of idea of, you know,
[00:34:04] it's collaborative and I can't just fix them,
[00:34:06] but there's a lot of that where, you know,
[00:34:09] they're showing up with it and in paper like, okay,
[00:34:12] tell me how to change and tell me what to do, right?
[00:34:15] Yeah.
[00:34:16] And so our conversation often,
[00:34:18] I know it can be confusing in the beginning,
[00:34:21] especially if you've never trusted yourself of,
[00:34:24] what does that even mean and how do I do that?
[00:34:26] But it will be the best medicine for you, I think.
[00:34:29] Long term.
[00:34:30] And it can be really an unfamiliar approach
[00:34:33] because of the way we've been conditioned.
[00:34:36] It can make us frustrated to like,
[00:34:39] you know, we wanna have the answers, right?
[00:34:43] Like it's just really frustrating when someone says,
[00:34:47] well, let's work on this together and they're like,
[00:34:49] wait a minute, you're the expert,
[00:34:50] you're supposed to help me.
[00:34:51] So it's like sometimes just honoring that anger,
[00:34:54] like it doesn't work that way.
[00:34:58] We wish it would for all of us, right?
[00:35:02] Exactly.
[00:35:02] That's why, like the word collaboration
[00:35:06] is really important.
[00:35:08] It's not like we're just saying,
[00:35:10] oh, go and meditate in the forest and figure it out, right?
[00:35:14] But also if you're sitting there
[00:35:16] just telling someone what to do in prescribing medicine
[00:35:19] every day, like that's not gonna help them long term either
[00:35:21] because they're not building that as itself.
[00:35:23] So that collaboration is super important.
[00:35:25] That's why having a mentor or a guide,
[00:35:27] coach, teacher to help you,
[00:35:30] but also help you develop your sense of trust, right?
[00:35:36] And intuition.
[00:35:38] Yeah, definitely.
[00:35:39] Yeah, that piece, that word is super important in there.
[00:35:43] Yeah, I think we all need support.
[00:35:46] I mean, I know I have my own coach, mentors,
[00:35:49] and I think it's a lifelong process.
[00:35:52] And I'm not to name celebrities,
[00:35:54] but I know a lot of like bugged her talks
[00:35:57] of very well-renowned speakers
[00:36:00] and they have like a whole team.
[00:36:01] Like they have people there
[00:36:04] and it doesn't matter how old they are,
[00:36:06] like, you know, they could be in their 80s
[00:36:08] and have like their own mentor and coach
[00:36:12] and it doesn't matter.
[00:36:14] Like we all need a sounding ball,
[00:36:16] we need a mirror, we need support
[00:36:20] because our brain is like that puppy.
[00:36:22] We have to keep saying no.
[00:36:24] No, in a gentle and most loving kind way.
[00:36:30] Yeah, exactly.
[00:36:31] As human beings, we're literally not meant to live alone,
[00:36:34] right, we're meant to live in community with people
[00:36:37] and we all have different roles and mentorship
[00:36:40] and guides and students and teachers and all the things.
[00:36:42] So yeah, definitely.
[00:36:43] I mean, I always have,
[00:36:44] I've talked about it on here millions of times.
[00:36:46] I've always had someone, some group, a mentor, something, right,
[00:36:49] to kind of help me with whatever's going on.
[00:36:51] There's no way I'd be where I am today without it.
[00:36:56] Yeah, we all need it.
[00:36:58] In the meditation community, we call it like our sangha,
[00:37:03] like our community.
[00:37:04] And even when I meditate,
[00:37:07] just meditating with the sangha,
[00:37:09] it's so helpful to just have other.
[00:37:11] Even if it's online, it's just like having everyone's presence
[00:37:16] and we're just sitting with our eyes closed,
[00:37:19] but it's so therapeutic, do it together.
[00:37:24] Yeah, yeah, that's why I love groups with this work.
[00:37:27] And I feel like there's always gonna be
[00:37:29] some sort of group work that I do,
[00:37:32] especially because people are really isolated
[00:37:33] in this journey, right?
[00:37:35] If you struggle with chronic pain and illness,
[00:37:37] you can feel so confused and like no one gets it.
[00:37:41] So even that level of being in community
[00:37:43] with people that get it, I think is super important.
[00:37:47] And then obviously the meditation.
[00:37:49] Yeah, I agree with you.
[00:37:50] Yeah, it's so important.
[00:37:52] And it's even really healing like to continue,
[00:37:55] even if you feel like you're fully recovered,
[00:37:57] just to have immunity to like, you know,
[00:38:02] and your presence probably, you know,
[00:38:04] if you're already on your healing journey
[00:38:06] or felt a lot of relief,
[00:38:09] provide so much comfort to those who are starting
[00:38:11] or in the middle of the middle of it
[00:38:13] and it's just such a good feeling all around
[00:38:17] to be a part of the healing communities.
[00:38:20] Yeah, exactly.
[00:38:21] Okay, so if there's anything else
[00:38:24] around what we've talked about today,
[00:38:26] like self-trust, capacity and really just understanding
[00:38:31] that, you know, you and your body
[00:38:34] are your own healer, obviously with the self,
[00:38:35] I mean the support and the trust.
[00:38:37] Is there anything else that you feel is important
[00:38:39] to know around all this?
[00:38:41] Yeah, I think when our brain tries to say like,
[00:38:44] if, you know, we're in this healing journey
[00:38:47] and our brain will say, well, like, we have to fix this,
[00:38:50] we have to get better, like, what's the next thing
[00:38:52] we can do, I just would say maybe try to see
[00:38:56] if there could just be a little bit of a pause
[00:38:58] in that kind of, you know, cascade of thoughts
[00:39:02] and ask, like, how can I just be with this sensation
[00:39:07] right now?
[00:39:08] I know it sounds really counterintuitive
[00:39:10] because it's like, okay, I don't wanna be with this sensation,
[00:39:14] I want it to go away, I don't wanna feel bad,
[00:39:17] I'm tired of suffering.
[00:39:19] But if there's a way to just say like,
[00:39:21] how can I just be with myself right now
[00:39:24] through this sensation?
[00:39:25] Almost like you're holding yourself,
[00:39:27] like as you're feeling this discomfort.
[00:39:31] Because by just doing that,
[00:39:33] it's like building that self-trust, that capacity,
[00:39:37] even if you don't feel like it is in the minute
[00:39:40] or in that moment.
[00:39:43] And it can be that simple.
[00:39:45] Thank you for saying that, that is very important
[00:39:47] because you're not gonna understand
[00:39:49] or wanna do it in those moments, in the beginning,
[00:39:52] but you are building that trust and capacity.
[00:39:56] Yeah.
[00:39:56] And if it's nurturing, you could, you know,
[00:39:58] take a deep breath or if that's triggering,
[00:40:01] you could just imagine your feet on the ground,
[00:40:04] you know, with the earth supporting you
[00:40:06] or listen to Grace's podcast while you're doing it.
[00:40:12] Yeah.
[00:40:13] And just know that there are a lot of people out there
[00:40:15] who care about you and want you to feel better.
[00:40:19] And to know that people care.
[00:40:21] And it's not because I know we use this phrase a lot,
[00:40:24] but we aren't broken.
[00:40:26] It's just we're actually like learning
[00:40:28] to really take care of ourselves and what matters most.
[00:40:32] Yeah, exactly.
[00:40:35] Thank you.
[00:40:36] Thank you so much for the conversation and for saying that.
[00:40:39] No, I never know, like I told you before,
[00:40:42] I don't plan these out necessarily,
[00:40:44] but I have a topic in mind.
[00:40:45] And I think that the way that you speak
[00:40:49] about some of these topics and just your,
[00:40:50] you can tell the journey you've been through
[00:40:52] and the work that you do comes through.
[00:40:54] So thank you for the work that you do for yourself,
[00:40:57] so that it also, you know, helps others
[00:40:59] because I mean, as mentioned in the beginning,
[00:41:02] it's cliche, but it's very true.
[00:41:03] Like I think if you're walking the walk,
[00:41:05] that's that makes you the best mentor
[00:41:07] and helper and teacher you can be.
[00:41:09] Yeah.
[00:41:10] Well, thank you for saying that.
[00:41:11] And I'm really glad cause that makes me feel good.
[00:41:15] Yeah.
[00:41:16] Good, good.
[00:41:16] Okay.
[00:41:17] So I will obviously have all these links below,
[00:41:19] but can you share with us like how people can find you
[00:41:22] and what you're offering?
[00:41:23] How do you help people now?
[00:41:25] Yeah, I'm happy to.
[00:41:27] I have kind of a program with helping people
[00:41:32] it's through one-to-one work
[00:41:34] and my, I'll give you my website information
[00:41:38] so you can, people can reach out to me there.
[00:41:41] I also have been doing some workshops with Ellen Alden.
[00:41:45] She has my COVID community,
[00:41:50] so I do join her community twice a month for Q&A.
[00:41:55] So if you'd like to see me there, you can.
[00:41:58] And then I'm hoping to start offering
[00:42:01] some group programs and coaching.
[00:42:05] I will be also doing some more mindfulness
[00:42:08] meditation talks as well.
[00:42:10] So stay tuned.
[00:42:13] Amazing.
[00:42:14] Looks like a lot of good things to come.
[00:42:15] Cool.
[00:42:17] All right.
[00:42:18] Thank you again, Rita, for coming on
[00:42:21] and I know this will be helpful for everyone.
[00:42:23] It was good to talk to you.
[00:42:25] Yeah, thank you so much for having me
[00:42:27] and thank you for offering this for the community
[00:42:30] as an opportunity to share our stories
[00:42:34] because we all heal when we can share our stories too.
[00:42:38] Exactly, exactly.
[00:42:39] Well, stay tuned everyone and I'll talk to you next week.
[00:42:43] If this podcast means something to you,
[00:42:45] it would mean so much to me
[00:42:46] if you could do these couple things.
[00:42:48] One, go to the Heal With Grace Show page
[00:42:50] wherever you listen and tap the plus sign
[00:42:53] or click on the follow button
[00:42:54] so you don't miss an episode.
[00:42:56] It helps both of us out.
[00:42:57] While you're there,
[00:42:58] if you could give a five star review
[00:43:00] so that this podcast can reach more people,
[00:43:03] it would mean so much to me
[00:43:05] so I can continue sharing episodes
[00:43:06] that help you as well as others.
[00:43:09] Thanks for listening
[00:43:10] and I hope this brings you hope on your journey.
[00:00:02] because that's what the system has taught us to do.
[00:00:06] Like, you need to do the X, Y, and Z.
[00:00:08] It's so prescriptive.
[00:00:09] There's no collaboration.
[00:00:11] And then sometimes the system is so brainwashing
[00:00:14] that people even feel like
[00:00:16] they're supposed to be told what to do.
[00:00:18] I've had many patients,
[00:00:20] like if I try to be collaborative with them
[00:00:22] and no fault of their own,
[00:00:24] they'll say, well, you're the doctor.
[00:00:26] You tell me what to do.
[00:00:27] Because they've kind of gotten disconnected
[00:00:30] from their own internal wisdom.
[00:00:32] And then just the media and capitalism
[00:00:35] and it's like you need to buy X or Y or Z to be whole
[00:00:39] or to be beautiful or to be healthy or to be...
[00:00:42] So it's always this outsourced message of like,
[00:00:46] you're good enough, you're worth it, you're okay.
[00:00:49] So our systems are not helping the self-trust.
[00:00:53] And that is one of the biggest pieces.
[00:00:55] They're showing up and in paper like, okay,
[00:00:57] tell me how to change and tell me what to do, right?
[00:01:00] Yeah.
[00:01:02] I know it can be confusing in the beginning,
[00:01:04] especially if you've never trusted yourself of
[00:01:06] what does that even mean and how do I do that?
[00:01:09] But it will be the best medicine for you, long term.
[00:01:12] Hey there and welcome to the Heal With Grace podcast.
[00:01:16] I'm your host, Grace Secker,
[00:01:18] and I'm a holistic licensed therapist
[00:01:20] and nervous system coach who believes
[00:01:22] that the chronic and often unseen symptoms
[00:01:25] you're living with are a sign of something deeper going on.
[00:01:29] A sign that your nervous system needs attention.
[00:01:32] In each episode, I'll share the science
[00:01:34] behind the most common chronic health disorders
[00:01:36] plus holistic tips using mental, physical
[00:01:39] and spiritual practices.
[00:01:40] You'll hear what I've learned in my journey
[00:01:42] and the true stories from our trusted guests
[00:01:45] so you can feel less alone in your experience
[00:01:47] and give yourself grace no matter what you're going through.
[00:01:50] So without further ado, settle in and get cozy.
[00:01:53] It's time to heal with grace.
[00:01:55] Hi, Dr. Rita.
[00:01:56] Thank you so much for coming on the Heal With Grace podcast.
[00:01:59] I'm excited for today's episode.
[00:02:01] Yeah, I'm so happy to be here with you.
[00:02:03] Thanks for having me.
[00:02:05] You are welcome.
[00:02:06] It's been some time, like a while for us to connect.
[00:02:09] We've gone back and forth about it
[00:02:10] and scheduling stuff and so it's definitely time.
[00:02:13] And I first saw you at the AT&S conference last year
[00:02:17] when you were speaking with Monica, I think.
[00:02:19] Yeah, I didn't believe it was so long ago now
[00:02:23] with like, yesterday.
[00:02:25] I know, I know.
[00:02:26] Yeah, and I thought it was wonderful
[00:02:28] and so I know that it would be a great episode
[00:02:30] to have you on.
[00:02:31] So let's first have you introduce yourself,
[00:02:34] tell us a little bit about you,
[00:02:35] how you came into this field and yeah, we'll go from there.
[00:02:40] Sounds great.
[00:02:41] So just a little background on me.
[00:02:43] I feel like I always have to start
[00:02:45] with what I was studying in undergrad
[00:02:48] before I became a doctor because it kind of gives me
[00:02:51] you know how when you can connect the dots,
[00:02:54] like even far back to our childhood
[00:02:57] and just like we're meant to be on this path.
[00:03:01] Yep.
[00:03:01] And it's a calling.
[00:03:02] And I know that you understand that
[00:03:04] and that's why I love being here with you today.
[00:03:07] But yeah, so like in college,
[00:03:09] I actually was a French literature major
[00:03:12] and I just loved story.
[00:03:15] Like I just loved hearing, you know,
[00:03:18] like I read some great works of art and literature
[00:03:22] like Emile Zola and Lotria Ma.
[00:03:25] I love the story and looking at like people's inner worlds.
[00:03:30] Like what's going on in their conscious and subconscious
[00:03:36] and like what were their motivations?
[00:03:39] What were their fears?
[00:03:40] And it really was kind of what brought me to medicine
[00:03:44] because medicine is of course science,
[00:03:47] but it's also such an art and it's a practice
[00:03:51] and it's really about understanding humanity
[00:03:55] and the human condition.
[00:03:58] And so as I was a primary care physician
[00:04:02] for almost 20 years, I started seeing a huge pattern.
[00:04:07] I started seeing like my patients were still suffering
[00:04:10] even though like I was offering them all the tests
[00:04:14] and diagnostics and medications and procedures
[00:04:18] and one of the things, you know,
[00:04:20] a lot of my colleagues have said in this field too
[00:04:23] is that as a primary care physician,
[00:04:26] patients come back to us.
[00:04:27] No, we will send them to the specialists
[00:04:29] but we kind of see the whole picture.
[00:04:31] And so I was seeing this pattern of,
[00:04:34] and you know, I have access to all their medical records.
[00:04:37] So I would have access to their, you know,
[00:04:39] all their neurology notes
[00:04:42] or their gastroenterology notes,
[00:04:44] they're all the different, you know, specialists they saw.
[00:04:47] And it was like, I was like kind of with there,
[00:04:51] like sitting next to them in their journey.
[00:04:54] And it was really, like it was really demoralizing.
[00:04:59] I mean, just to be very honest and open about it
[00:05:02] because I wanted to be able to quote unquote,
[00:05:07] fix their problems.
[00:05:08] I wanted to be able to help them.
[00:05:11] And I really realized that I was not helping them.
[00:05:16] And I saw this big gap in cracks and medicine.
[00:05:22] And I think life gives us what we need sometimes.
[00:05:26] I try to look at it that way
[00:05:27] and I had my own injury and my own pain.
[00:05:32] And I think it wasn't just a coincidence that I did
[00:05:36] because it also was kind of me carrying
[00:05:40] all of that experience of what I saw my patients go through.
[00:05:44] It's almost like life gave me the pain
[00:05:48] because that's when I couldn't even physically go on
[00:05:53] because of my own health issues.
[00:05:55] And I became in my patient shoes,
[00:05:58] like looking for every option, like how do I fix this?
[00:06:02] How do I get better?
[00:06:05] I ruptured a disc in my neck
[00:06:07] and basically was almost like toll surgery
[00:06:11] was my only option.
[00:06:13] So it led me to my own path
[00:06:16] and I pursued integrated medicine, mind body medicine.
[00:06:20] And I could probably go on for the whole hour
[00:06:23] about my story, but basically it's what really
[00:06:27] brought me to this work.
[00:06:28] And it's really been life changing for me
[00:06:32] for my career because it's brought me tools
[00:06:35] and a way to help my patients get better
[00:06:38] and also for me to live a better life.
[00:06:41] So there's so much gift in that,
[00:06:44] but of course it comes at a lot of suffering
[00:06:47] and struggle and lived experience.
[00:06:51] But I mean, we can bring that to our patients and clients.
[00:06:55] Exactly.
[00:06:56] I mean, there's two things.
[00:06:57] One, I would wanna hear more
[00:06:58] because I especially being a primary care doctor,
[00:07:02] you just don't hear that enough, right?
[00:07:05] Being in this world, I've talked to many,
[00:07:07] but it's rare, right?
[00:07:09] It's rare for you to open up the possibility
[00:07:12] of how can I help someone?
[00:07:14] And then also obviously how can I help myself
[00:07:15] when you're going through it in your own body?
[00:07:19] And so I just think it's really, really powerful
[00:07:22] to hear that from someone in medicine
[00:07:25] to have them open up to, yeah,
[00:07:27] there's plenty of ways to help someone, right?
[00:07:30] And what you were seeing wasn't really helping
[00:07:33] as much as maybe you wanted or thought it could.
[00:07:35] So first and foremost, thank you for doing that,
[00:07:37] for opening up.
[00:07:38] And also how far into being a doctor
[00:07:41] did you have your own journey
[00:07:43] and then how did you find the mind-body medicine world?
[00:07:46] Yeah, I wish it was sooner,
[00:07:49] but I was already pretty much practicing
[00:07:52] for almost 15 years at that point.
[00:07:54] And I was very much the push through,
[00:07:58] like my body needed to obey me basically
[00:08:02] and my head was disconnected from my body.
[00:08:06] So I was just really much into,
[00:08:10] a lot of times we go into these healing professions,
[00:08:13] of course we wanna make a difference,
[00:08:14] we wanna serve others,
[00:08:16] but there are some deeper wounds of why we go into this.
[00:08:20] We feel we have to prove our self worth,
[00:08:23] like by helping others, by being of service.
[00:08:26] So I had some deeper wounds where I felt like
[00:08:29] I needed to prove that I was good enough,
[00:08:33] that I was capable enough to be in this position
[00:08:36] of serving and being in an intimate relationship
[00:08:41] with my patients because it is a privilege
[00:08:44] to know so much as you know in your field
[00:08:47] about people's lives.
[00:08:48] And it's a lot of responsibility too.
[00:08:51] So I think I had those deeper wounds
[00:08:55] and I also think that my chronic pain journey
[00:08:58] was me drawing attention to those wounds.
[00:09:01] So it did take a while for me to get into it.
[00:09:04] And it's a process, it wasn't linear.
[00:09:07] There was a lot of questioning and turns and twists
[00:09:12] and there still are, but it's really rewarding.
[00:09:17] Yeah, yeah.
[00:09:18] And so now what is your focus in primary care?
[00:09:22] Is it general, is it my body?
[00:09:24] Like how do you help people now?
[00:09:26] Yeah, so now I've actually left my role
[00:09:29] as a primary care physician
[00:09:31] and completely focused on the mind-body approach,
[00:09:34] mind-body medicine, neuroplastic medicine
[00:09:38] and really integrating all the modalities I've learned
[00:09:41] like even from just integrated medicine
[00:09:45] where it's Ayurveda and traditional Chinese medicine
[00:09:49] to also integrating like PRT,
[00:09:52] pain reprocessing therapy, emotional awareness.
[00:09:54] And also I'm almost completing my mindfulness
[00:09:58] and meditation teacher certification.
[00:10:00] It's connected to your journey.
[00:10:02] So I really feel like that has really helped me
[00:10:07] in deepening my PRT work and also emotional work.
[00:10:11] So it's really just integrating everything
[00:10:15] and my lived experience and just my experience
[00:10:18] of being with a primary doctor as well.
[00:10:22] Sounds like we're similar and exploring
[00:10:24] different modalities and blending them.
[00:10:28] I mean, I have so many ideas of oh, I want to do that training
[00:10:32] or I want to, I almost went down the functional route,
[00:10:35] medicine route one time or integrative route
[00:10:38] and then this and there's so many things
[00:10:40] and just even having like there's that student fire
[00:10:44] within you of wanting to understand, right?
[00:10:46] And learn and experience for yourself
[00:10:49] and then bringing it to the people that you help,
[00:10:51] which is I think one of the most powerful things
[00:10:54] you can do as a helper as a healer.
[00:10:58] Yeah, I agree.
[00:11:00] Yeah, there is that fire, like you said, just to learn.
[00:11:05] And it's fun, you know, like it's really fun
[00:11:09] when you can help people and they get better
[00:11:12] and you learn information and it changes you
[00:11:16] like psychologically and physiologically
[00:11:19] and it just makes you excited.
[00:11:22] You know what I mean?
[00:11:23] It's just like there's hope, there's a way.
[00:11:26] And I love how this work is so personal and individual too.
[00:11:30] It's just, you know, a lot of times in medicine
[00:11:33] we need the algorithms because, you know,
[00:11:37] that's how we get out traumas or acute situations.
[00:11:41] I don't know if you watched the pit.
[00:11:43] It's a, you know, my partner keeps telling me about it,
[00:11:47] but I have my own response to watching medical shows.
[00:11:50] So I just, it's a little too much for me,
[00:11:52] a little too much drama.
[00:11:53] I don't blame you because it can be like,
[00:11:56] it's actually like not to digress,
[00:11:58] but for me it's been kind of educational
[00:12:01] because it made me realize how disconnected I was
[00:12:04] because you're just like going from your shifting
[00:12:07] from like one thing to another thing to another,
[00:12:10] you know, where you're telling someone
[00:12:11] like life and death news to, you know,
[00:12:14] dealing with some acute situation
[00:12:17] to like dealing with someone's grandmother
[00:12:19] who's just telling you about, you know, something sweet.
[00:12:23] Like it's just a lot of chaos, but anyway.
[00:12:28] But yeah, so it just gives,
[00:12:30] I don't know where I was going with that, but.
[00:12:32] Yeah, I mean, well, bringing it back
[00:12:34] to what you do now, right?
[00:12:35] Integrating and helping people and it may be
[00:12:37] in a different way instead of being so disconnected
[00:12:39] from how you're approaching.
[00:12:41] Yeah.
[00:12:42] Yeah.
[00:12:43] Yeah.
[00:12:44] So one of the topics I wanted to get into today
[00:12:47] was two things that kind of overlap.
[00:12:49] One, you talked about recently how
[00:12:52] the more that we either push away pain or fight pain
[00:12:55] or categorize it as bad or chronic, right?
[00:12:58] The less we actually have capacity for it,
[00:13:01] maybe we become more sensitive to it,
[00:13:03] which I say, I think we should talk about that
[00:13:06] because I say that and I'm like,
[00:13:07] ooh, people are gonna hear this and think I'm telling
[00:13:09] them they just have a low capacity for pain
[00:13:11] or they're too sensitive, right?
[00:13:13] Which is not the case.
[00:13:15] Let's start there before I get ahead of myself.
[00:13:17] Like what would you say to someone who is like,
[00:13:20] no, it's not, I'm not too sensitive or like,
[00:13:23] I don't have a low threshold for pain.
[00:13:24] What are you talking about?
[00:13:25] I have so much pain.
[00:13:26] How would you approach that?
[00:13:29] Yeah.
[00:13:30] I mean, first of all, like I always start
[00:13:32] with like just the experience of living
[00:13:35] with that type of discomfort, like, and so unpredictable
[00:13:39] and it's so relentless, it's really hard.
[00:13:43] I mean, it's really, really hard.
[00:13:45] And it's not about being sensitive,
[00:13:48] it's just being, it's biological and it's neurological.
[00:13:52] Like your body is in constant threat, stress,
[00:13:58] discomfort, I mean, there's no space.
[00:14:01] And it's really hard to feel a connection
[00:14:04] or relationship to yourself or your inner world
[00:14:09] or, you know, I like to sometimes say our true selves.
[00:14:13] It's really that, that gets really muddied.
[00:14:16] And I think the more we try to fix or avoid
[00:14:21] that creates more of a threat response in our system.
[00:14:24] So then it just that threshold gets lower and lower
[00:14:28] and it's basically a loop, like bringing awareness
[00:14:32] to that alone could be very healing.
[00:14:37] Yeah, exactly.
[00:14:38] I was with a new client yesterday
[00:14:40] and she was saying something kind of similar to this,
[00:14:42] like she's been in my program learning
[00:14:45] some of the tools and the skills.
[00:14:47] She was like, I just, meditation just does not,
[00:14:49] I can't do it very well.
[00:14:50] I just have too much pain when I sit there
[00:14:53] and I can't pay attention.
[00:14:55] And as we did it in session,
[00:14:57] it was more of a recognition that,
[00:15:00] yeah, when she quieted down and closed her eyes,
[00:15:04] then the sensation of what she was experiencing in her body,
[00:15:07] which she categorized as pain was increasing.
[00:15:10] And so then of course you automatically, biologically,
[00:15:12] right, you say, oh, that's bad, that's wrong.
[00:15:15] That's not okay.
[00:15:16] This is too much.
[00:15:18] And that's, I'm guessing kind of what you're saying is,
[00:15:20] yeah, obviously that's hard, right?
[00:15:24] What we know with pain science, with PRT
[00:15:27] and what we do is breaking that cycle
[00:15:31] is actually what helps decrease it, right?
[00:15:34] And it just made me think of that
[00:15:36] because that's exactly what was happening yesterday
[00:15:38] where it was like, she's just really afraid
[00:15:40] of going into that, which understandably so, obviously.
[00:15:43] But as you mentioned, like our expanding ourselves, right?
[00:15:46] Expanding that capacity to be with it
[00:15:48] actually dials it down.
[00:15:50] Yeah.
[00:15:51] But it's like we have to go into the unknown
[00:15:54] or the uncertainty to get to that place.
[00:15:57] So it's like that dip down.
[00:15:59] But I think just bringing awareness is the first step,
[00:16:03] is just saying like, I am resisting that.
[00:16:06] I am resisting the being with,
[00:16:10] instead of that noise of like, it's too loud,
[00:16:14] I have to stop.
[00:16:15] Like you're seeing that nuance.
[00:16:17] There's a little bit of, it's subtle,
[00:16:19] but there's a little bit of space there.
[00:16:22] And if we can keep going there slowly and slowly,
[00:16:26] because I think we talked before we decided to meet
[00:16:30] about what we were gonna talk about
[00:16:31] when we said self-trust and how do we build self-trust
[00:16:35] when we're in so much pain and so many symptoms?
[00:16:39] I think it's what you're touching on is
[00:16:41] when we can be with that pain
[00:16:45] and not collapse or even open up
[00:16:48] just even like we use the 1% or the 5%,
[00:16:52] but it's really, that's how we rebuild self-trust
[00:16:56] because it's not like something we have or we don't have.
[00:16:59] It's something that kind of ebbs and flows.
[00:17:01] So it's, you know what I mean?
[00:17:03] It's there, it's just we kind of have to rebuild it.
[00:17:07] And so when we can just be with that sensation
[00:17:11] and know that we can be okay, like I can handle this,
[00:17:15] that's how we build that trust in ourselves.
[00:17:18] And then that's also how we kind of have relationship
[00:17:23] to our authentic self is through self-trust.
[00:17:26] The process of self-trust is where we really discover
[00:17:29] who we really are and wanna be in the world,
[00:17:33] our deeper purpose.
[00:17:34] That's what, so for someone listening who's like,
[00:17:38] okay, I'm tapping into this work, right?
[00:17:40] I'm starting to understand that there's a mind body
[00:17:44] or like a nervous system component
[00:17:46] to what I'm experiencing.
[00:17:47] The concept of self-trust might not even be
[00:17:49] in their vocabulary, right?
[00:17:51] So how would you broach that with them of like, okay,
[00:17:56] the reason we're taught, when they're like,
[00:17:58] well, I'm just having these physical sensations.
[00:18:00] What do you talk about self-trust?
[00:18:01] How do you talk to them about, okay, actually,
[00:18:04] there's probably a lack of trust
[00:18:05] which is actually increasing that cycle
[00:18:07] of fear in your body.
[00:18:08] Yeah.
[00:18:09] Yeah.
[00:18:11] I would kind of go to other areas like,
[00:18:15] what are your values?
[00:18:17] What do you care about?
[00:18:18] What matters?
[00:18:20] Because that kind of intention sets a direction
[00:18:24] towards what's important to us.
[00:18:26] And sometimes self-trust is about kind of just
[00:18:29] being in alignment with what's important to us.
[00:18:32] What matters?
[00:18:33] Cause you'll hear that in people like I was sharing
[00:18:36] with my story and your story probably too.
[00:18:38] Cause like when we get ill or we have
[00:18:41] a really big life challenge or we suffer,
[00:18:45] we start realizing like, what is really important to us?
[00:18:49] What matters?
[00:18:50] What do we value?
[00:18:52] Then that becomes our guide.
[00:18:54] And then we can even look at emotions too.
[00:18:57] Emotions are really valuable information.
[00:19:00] I mean, sometimes when I'm really scared
[00:19:02] about something, it actually can tell me like,
[00:19:06] well, this really matters to me right now
[00:19:09] because I wouldn't be scared right now
[00:19:10] if it didn't matter to me.
[00:19:12] What's underneath that?
[00:19:16] And maybe there is some other emotion
[00:19:19] or a belief or it's a doorway.
[00:19:24] Yeah.
[00:19:25] I like that.
[00:19:26] Yeah, like that in with values, right?
[00:19:29] And because when you're not living within
[00:19:33] what you value, it is harder to trust yourself
[00:19:35] or even have that, right?
[00:19:37] Cause you're not trusting that you're living in alignment.
[00:19:39] And so why do you think it is like in the beginning
[00:19:43] when someone, when you're going through maybe your story,
[00:19:45] like when you were going through this journey,
[00:19:46] why does it make you confront that,
[00:19:49] confront why you're not living in alignment?
[00:19:52] And yeah.
[00:19:54] I think it goes to that idea
[00:19:56] that like if things are status quo in our life,
[00:20:00] it's really hard to change because change is uncomfortable
[00:20:03] and it requires us going into the unknown.
[00:20:08] Even great, even good changes,
[00:20:10] even exciting events in our life can be very stressful
[00:20:13] because our brain, as we know with the neuroscience,
[00:20:17] loves predictability, loves, you know,
[00:20:20] to know what's gonna happen for certain.
[00:20:23] And I think that when we feel uncomfortable,
[00:20:30] it can be really challenging.
[00:20:32] But when we get a life-changing event or, you know,
[00:20:35] they say everybody goes through this
[00:20:38] at some point in their life,
[00:20:39] some catastrophic or life-changing or really hard time,
[00:20:43] whether it's illness or loss or, you know,
[00:20:47] it could be anything.
[00:20:49] And I think it's, that's what pushes us
[00:20:52] because that the comparison of what we're going through
[00:20:56] to having to change,
[00:20:58] the change is less uncomfortable
[00:21:01] than what we're going through.
[00:21:04] Basically that's, and that's where we get that entry point.
[00:21:08] So that's why there is almost like a gift
[00:21:11] or, you know, we can call it even the hero
[00:21:14] or heroine's journey, like in that transformation,
[00:21:18] it's our doorway to living the life we really wanna live
[00:21:22] because we really go deep
[00:21:24] and then we go really matters to me right now.
[00:21:26] It's like when we're in those, and not to be dramatic
[00:21:29] but sometimes those life and death situations,
[00:21:32] what do we think about?
[00:21:33] We think about what really matters.
[00:21:36] You know, you hear stories about people on their,
[00:21:40] you know, unfortunately like last days of life,
[00:21:43] they really talk about what really matters.
[00:21:47] And so, so yeah, that's what I would say on that.
[00:21:50] Going through, you're right,
[00:21:51] specifically with pain and illness,
[00:21:55] this journey that we help people with
[00:21:57] going in the mind, our body journey
[00:21:58] and that you and I both have been on,
[00:22:01] it is life changing and there's a reason for that.
[00:22:03] And there's a reason why a lot of us can say,
[00:22:05] actually we're grateful for that journey
[00:22:07] where if you're in the beginning of it
[00:22:08] or you're in the middle of it,
[00:22:09] you may not be able to see that
[00:22:11] but it's really true.
[00:22:13] It helps you actually get into the life
[00:22:16] that is more in alignment with yourself
[00:22:20] where maybe you didn't realize that before.
[00:22:22] I talked to a lot of people that are like,
[00:22:24] I don't know, things were fine.
[00:22:26] Yeah.
[00:22:26] Why am I having this?
[00:22:28] And so you can't always see it,
[00:22:31] but that's why it's there.
[00:22:32] Like I love that you said that.
[00:22:33] I mean, we have to get uncomfortable to make a change.
[00:22:36] We're not just gonna wake up one day
[00:22:38] and change our life for a random reason.
[00:22:43] Yeah.
[00:22:46] It's not about willpower or being strong or weak
[00:22:50] or it's biological.
[00:22:52] We're wired for that.
[00:22:53] Like we're not gonna uproot everything
[00:22:57] unless we're really uncomfortable
[00:23:00] and our system is like, well, we have no choice.
[00:23:05] We literally have no choice.
[00:23:07] What did it look like for you
[00:23:08] when you confronted maybe your values
[00:23:11] or your trust with yourself?
[00:23:12] Like how did you move through that
[00:23:15] and how did it help your own self-trust?
[00:23:17] I think anchoring into my values really helped
[00:23:20] because when I felt that I was living in integrity
[00:23:26] with my authentic self of like what mattered to me
[00:23:29] in terms of like how I wanted to show up
[00:23:31] for my family, you know, for my husband,
[00:23:35] for my daughter, for my extended family friends.
[00:23:38] Like I wanted to be somebody who could feel honest
[00:23:43] in what I was saying.
[00:23:45] And I think when I did leave my role where I was before,
[00:23:50] I didn't feel like that alignment sometimes
[00:23:54] because I was not offering the medicine
[00:23:57] I felt my patients or clients needed
[00:24:01] because of the structure I was in.
[00:24:04] And this is not to like dismiss the structure I was in
[00:24:08] was functional and it was worthwhile and it was valuable
[00:24:12] but that's what made me realize I needed to make a change
[00:24:17] and be an integrity with myself.
[00:24:19] And of course it's like timing of life, you know,
[00:24:21] I'm like already done 20 years in that model
[00:24:25] but I really found it to be liberating
[00:24:28] and in alignment with my values
[00:24:31] the way I'm showing up for clients now,
[00:24:35] the way I'm practicing now.
[00:24:37] And so I didn't realize how like you said
[00:24:40] you don't realize it but when I did that
[00:24:43] I felt a huge shift in my body.
[00:24:45] Like I just felt like this,
[00:24:47] like my shoulders were like finally like, wow,
[00:24:50] I'm doing what is valuable to me,
[00:24:53] what is meaningful to me.
[00:24:54] I know this may sound like, you know,
[00:24:57] I'm just shifting gears a little bit
[00:24:59] but to me it was a really physiological change too.
[00:25:03] And I noticed that I was less irritable with my family.
[00:25:07] Like I just noticed so many levels
[00:25:10] like I showed up more like Rita, you know
[00:25:14] by making that change.
[00:25:15] And it was a really difficult change for me
[00:25:18] cause I had, you know, it's like
[00:25:19] when you've been on a certain path for 20 years
[00:25:22] to like steer the car off that path.
[00:25:24] And I had doubts and I had my brain, you know
[00:25:28] my skeptical brain kept saying, gosh, like what are you
[00:25:32] doing?
[00:25:33] Like you should just be thinking about retirement now
[00:25:36] and getting all your ducks in a row and yeah.
[00:25:41] Yeah.
[00:25:42] It's a change like that,
[00:25:43] a change that your body brings about for you
[00:25:46] through pain and illness like to get your attention.
[00:25:50] It's never going to be like, oh, I realize I should,
[00:25:53] I want to make a change to be more in alignment
[00:25:55] with my values in my life.
[00:25:57] And okay, cool.
[00:25:58] Now it's great.
[00:25:59] And it all fits together.
[00:26:00] And the puzzle pieces work, puzzle pieces work, right?
[00:26:03] It doesn't work that way.
[00:26:05] I've never heard anyone talk about it that way, right?
[00:26:08] Yeah, exactly.
[00:26:09] Back and forth to challenge you to really like
[00:26:12] to challenge, okay, is this actually right?
[00:26:14] Is this, you know, is this important?
[00:26:16] And the question I get, I get right for myself all the time
[00:26:19] is do you feel like you had to make that change
[00:26:22] in your life for your body to have a reduction
[00:26:24] in symptoms, whatever your symptoms might have been?
[00:26:27] Do you feel like that was important
[00:26:29] or do you think that, I mean, you can't know
[00:26:31] because you didn't stay, but, you know
[00:26:34] the question is like, do I have to make a life change
[00:26:36] for my symptoms to subside?
[00:26:38] How do you approach it?
[00:26:40] I think for me, I did.
[00:26:42] Like you said, for all the puzzle pieces to fit
[00:26:45] that resonates a lot because, you know
[00:26:47] there are gonna be some, I don't even wanna say good days
[00:26:49] or bad days, there can be moments
[00:26:51] where even in a moment you're like
[00:26:53] I'm having a symptom or something happens
[00:26:56] and then like 30 minutes later, it's like, okay, I'm fine.
[00:27:00] It can be so fluctuate, but I think overall like
[00:27:06] I can move in the world and show up in the world
[00:27:09] in such a more useful way that that impacts my body greatly.
[00:27:17] I have seen in my clients that when we can listen
[00:27:21] to our body sensations and advocate for ourselves
[00:27:26] it does affect our symptoms.
[00:27:29] It does create relief.
[00:27:31] And, but I always love what Alan Gordon has said.
[00:27:36] I don't know if he wrote that in his book
[00:27:38] where he told us in one of the trainings,
[00:27:40] but he's like, I don't really care
[00:27:42] what happens to your symptoms.
[00:27:43] I just care about how you relate to your symptoms.
[00:27:47] And I really feel like that is how I approach this work
[00:27:52] because I don't like to say your symptoms
[00:27:55] are gonna go away or you're gonna get relief.
[00:27:58] I mean, I hope you do, but I can't control that.
[00:28:02] I really can't.
[00:28:03] Like it's like if I prescribed a medication
[00:28:05] to someone, I can't control that they're gonna get better.
[00:28:09] Maybe 90% of people do and they might,
[00:28:12] but if I can change their relationship to their symptoms,
[00:28:15] so I think he also said like,
[00:28:17] I don't want you to care about your symptoms too.
[00:28:20] Doesn't he say like a phrase like that?
[00:28:22] Yeah, maybe that's what it was exactly.
[00:28:25] I don't wanna misquote him on this podcast.
[00:28:28] But basically-
[00:28:28] The general project, the general idea, yeah.
[00:28:31] Yeah, but basically it's not like I can have my pain,
[00:28:35] but I won't seize up about it
[00:28:38] or I won't make a meaning about it or I won't,
[00:28:42] I'm just like, okay, here you are.
[00:28:45] Maybe this is telling me I need to take a break
[00:28:47] or maybe this is telling me like that
[00:28:51] I just wanna say hi to you
[00:28:52] or maybe this is telling me I'm hungry.
[00:28:55] I don't know.
[00:28:57] There's lots of that emotional charge with the symptom
[00:29:01] if that makes sense.
[00:29:03] Yeah.
[00:29:04] Yeah.
[00:29:05] I think about the capacity you brought up earlier.
[00:29:07] It's trusting that my body knows how to take care of me
[00:29:13] and my body knows how to tell me how to take care of it
[00:29:16] and I can trust in that.
[00:29:21] Yeah.
[00:29:22] As you're saying that, what just came to mind for me,
[00:29:24] which I think about a lot
[00:29:26] even before my days of specializing in this
[00:29:28] and just being a therapist, a mental health therapist
[00:29:31] is like what you just said,
[00:29:33] I thought, man, if we could just teach that like in schools,
[00:29:38] it's not that complex of a concept, right?
[00:29:42] Learning that our bodies are ever evolving and wise
[00:29:45] and have a different relationship with our symptoms,
[00:29:47] our bodies or whatever is happening in our life.
[00:29:50] That is just, man, that would change so much.
[00:29:55] And so when you're saying that and just like, yeah,
[00:29:57] that would be, that's so much of this work.
[00:30:01] It's so much of teaching and educating people
[00:30:03] about how to have a different relationship with your symptoms,
[00:30:06] with yourself, with your values,
[00:30:10] with the people in your life
[00:30:11] or your career, your job, whatever's happening, right?
[00:30:15] Instead of trying to force it or make it be a certain way,
[00:30:18] because that doesn't work very well.
[00:30:21] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:30:23] You said it really great.
[00:30:24] And as you were talking,
[00:30:25] I just realized like pretty much the supplies
[00:30:28] to every area of life, right?
[00:30:30] Like relationships, circumstances, situations,
[00:30:34] it's not like we're saying give up your agency
[00:30:37] or giving up your free will.
[00:30:39] It's really about just not trying to force and control
[00:30:44] and like finding that you said it actually so well.
[00:30:50] Well, I think actually what you're saying is,
[00:30:52] it's actually the opposite.
[00:30:53] It's actually giving voice to what is your true voice,
[00:30:58] right? More agency and authority at a voice.
[00:31:02] Instead of being either suppressed, especially,
[00:31:06] and that's very common,
[00:31:07] or just expecting that voice or ourselves
[00:31:10] to be someone that we're not really,
[00:31:12] just based on what we've learned,
[00:31:13] we thought we should be or who we should be.
[00:31:16] So it's more about, yeah,
[00:31:18] giving that sense of self and agency and authority.
[00:31:21] Yeah, and trusting our voice, yeah.
[00:31:26] Yeah.
[00:31:27] Which exactly that is,
[00:31:29] I think self-trust ends up coming in a little bit later
[00:31:32] in this journey, depending on the person.
[00:31:34] I think sometimes in the beginning,
[00:31:35] it's really just stabilizing
[00:31:37] and understanding the pain science
[00:31:38] and your brain and body connection.
[00:31:41] But really throughout the whole process,
[00:31:43] you are learning to trust yourself more,
[00:31:45] regardless of the phase.
[00:31:46] Are you in the education phase
[00:31:48] and just learning about this stuff?
[00:31:49] Are you kind of retraining your brain a little bit
[00:31:52] and stabilizing, grounding yourself?
[00:31:56] Or are you diving deep into your values
[00:31:58] and your parts and who you are?
[00:32:01] I mean, it all goes together,
[00:32:02] but I think for a while, some people are like,
[00:32:04] oh, I'll get to the deeper stuff when I get there.
[00:32:06] But it's all throughout.
[00:32:10] How do you see that?
[00:32:10] How do you see the self-trust piece
[00:32:12] going into all this?
[00:32:14] Yeah, I think you name something really important
[00:32:16] and that it's happening throughout,
[00:32:18] even if we're not naming or consciously acknowledging it.
[00:32:23] We are trusting ourselves just by even starting the journey
[00:32:26] and learning the pain science
[00:32:28] and seeing how the evidence of the neuroplasticity
[00:32:32] and the symptoms, it's already the process of starting.
[00:32:37] And I think we just know how to trust ourselves too.
[00:32:40] We're biologically wired to,
[00:32:42] but all the modern-day world,
[00:32:45] I mean, we live in systems
[00:32:47] that don't really tell us that it's okay to trust ourselves.
[00:32:51] Even the medical system,
[00:32:53] we're always outsourcing our own inner wisdom
[00:32:56] because that's what the system has taught us to do.
[00:32:59] Like, oh, well, you need to do the X, Y, and Z.
[00:33:02] It's so prescriptive.
[00:33:04] It's so like, there's no collaboration or, you know,
[00:33:09] and then sometimes the system is so brainwashing
[00:33:12] that people even feel like
[00:33:14] they're supposed to be told what to do.
[00:33:16] Like I've had many patients,
[00:33:18] like if I try to be collaborative with them
[00:33:20] and no fault of their own,
[00:33:22] they'll say, well, you're the doctor.
[00:33:24] You tell me what to do.
[00:33:27] Because it's like they've kind of gotten disconnected
[00:33:30] from their own internal wisdom.
[00:33:32] And then just the media and capitalism
[00:33:35] and it's like you need to buy X or Y or Z to be whole
[00:33:39] or to be beautiful or to be healthy or to be...
[00:33:43] So it's always this outsourced message of like,
[00:33:47] you're good enough, you're worth it, you're okay.
[00:33:50] So our systems are not helping the self-trust.
[00:33:55] And that is one of the biggest pieces, obviously.
[00:33:59] Obviously it's a little bit different.
[00:34:00] I feel like when people come to therapy,
[00:34:02] they have some sort of idea of, you know,
[00:34:04] it's collaborative and I can't just fix them,
[00:34:06] but there's a lot of that where, you know,
[00:34:09] they're showing up with it and in paper like, okay,
[00:34:12] tell me how to change and tell me what to do, right?
[00:34:15] Yeah.
[00:34:16] And so our conversation often,
[00:34:18] I know it can be confusing in the beginning,
[00:34:21] especially if you've never trusted yourself of,
[00:34:24] what does that even mean and how do I do that?
[00:34:26] But it will be the best medicine for you, I think.
[00:34:29] Long term.
[00:34:30] And it can be really an unfamiliar approach
[00:34:33] because of the way we've been conditioned.
[00:34:36] It can make us frustrated to like,
[00:34:39] you know, we wanna have the answers, right?
[00:34:43] Like it's just really frustrating when someone says,
[00:34:47] well, let's work on this together and they're like,
[00:34:49] wait a minute, you're the expert,
[00:34:50] you're supposed to help me.
[00:34:51] So it's like sometimes just honoring that anger,
[00:34:54] like it doesn't work that way.
[00:34:58] We wish it would for all of us, right?
[00:35:02] Exactly.
[00:35:02] That's why, like the word collaboration
[00:35:06] is really important.
[00:35:08] It's not like we're just saying,
[00:35:10] oh, go and meditate in the forest and figure it out, right?
[00:35:14] But also if you're sitting there
[00:35:16] just telling someone what to do in prescribing medicine
[00:35:19] every day, like that's not gonna help them long term either
[00:35:21] because they're not building that as itself.
[00:35:23] So that collaboration is super important.
[00:35:25] That's why having a mentor or a guide,
[00:35:27] coach, teacher to help you,
[00:35:30] but also help you develop your sense of trust, right?
[00:35:36] And intuition.
[00:35:38] Yeah, definitely.
[00:35:39] Yeah, that piece, that word is super important in there.
[00:35:43] Yeah, I think we all need support.
[00:35:46] I mean, I know I have my own coach, mentors,
[00:35:49] and I think it's a lifelong process.
[00:35:52] And I'm not to name celebrities,
[00:35:54] but I know a lot of like bugged her talks
[00:35:57] of very well-renowned speakers
[00:36:00] and they have like a whole team.
[00:36:01] Like they have people there
[00:36:04] and it doesn't matter how old they are,
[00:36:06] like, you know, they could be in their 80s
[00:36:08] and have like their own mentor and coach
[00:36:12] and it doesn't matter.
[00:36:14] Like we all need a sounding ball,
[00:36:16] we need a mirror, we need support
[00:36:20] because our brain is like that puppy.
[00:36:22] We have to keep saying no.
[00:36:24] No, in a gentle and most loving kind way.
[00:36:30] Yeah, exactly.
[00:36:31] As human beings, we're literally not meant to live alone,
[00:36:34] right, we're meant to live in community with people
[00:36:37] and we all have different roles and mentorship
[00:36:40] and guides and students and teachers and all the things.
[00:36:42] So yeah, definitely.
[00:36:43] I mean, I always have,
[00:36:44] I've talked about it on here millions of times.
[00:36:46] I've always had someone, some group, a mentor, something, right,
[00:36:49] to kind of help me with whatever's going on.
[00:36:51] There's no way I'd be where I am today without it.
[00:36:56] Yeah, we all need it.
[00:36:58] In the meditation community, we call it like our sangha,
[00:37:03] like our community.
[00:37:04] And even when I meditate,
[00:37:07] just meditating with the sangha,
[00:37:09] it's so helpful to just have other.
[00:37:11] Even if it's online, it's just like having everyone's presence
[00:37:16] and we're just sitting with our eyes closed,
[00:37:19] but it's so therapeutic, do it together.
[00:37:24] Yeah, yeah, that's why I love groups with this work.
[00:37:27] And I feel like there's always gonna be
[00:37:29] some sort of group work that I do,
[00:37:32] especially because people are really isolated
[00:37:33] in this journey, right?
[00:37:35] If you struggle with chronic pain and illness,
[00:37:37] you can feel so confused and like no one gets it.
[00:37:41] So even that level of being in community
[00:37:43] with people that get it, I think is super important.
[00:37:47] And then obviously the meditation.
[00:37:49] Yeah, I agree with you.
[00:37:50] Yeah, it's so important.
[00:37:52] And it's even really healing like to continue,
[00:37:55] even if you feel like you're fully recovered,
[00:37:57] just to have immunity to like, you know,
[00:38:02] and your presence probably, you know,
[00:38:04] if you're already on your healing journey
[00:38:06] or felt a lot of relief,
[00:38:09] provide so much comfort to those who are starting
[00:38:11] or in the middle of the middle of it
[00:38:13] and it's just such a good feeling all around
[00:38:17] to be a part of the healing communities.
[00:38:20] Yeah, exactly.
[00:38:21] Okay, so if there's anything else
[00:38:24] around what we've talked about today,
[00:38:26] like self-trust, capacity and really just understanding
[00:38:31] that, you know, you and your body
[00:38:34] are your own healer, obviously with the self,
[00:38:35] I mean the support and the trust.
[00:38:37] Is there anything else that you feel is important
[00:38:39] to know around all this?
[00:38:41] Yeah, I think when our brain tries to say like,
[00:38:44] if, you know, we're in this healing journey
[00:38:47] and our brain will say, well, like, we have to fix this,
[00:38:50] we have to get better, like, what's the next thing
[00:38:52] we can do, I just would say maybe try to see
[00:38:56] if there could just be a little bit of a pause
[00:38:58] in that kind of, you know, cascade of thoughts
[00:39:02] and ask, like, how can I just be with this sensation
[00:39:07] right now?
[00:39:08] I know it sounds really counterintuitive
[00:39:10] because it's like, okay, I don't wanna be with this sensation,
[00:39:14] I want it to go away, I don't wanna feel bad,
[00:39:17] I'm tired of suffering.
[00:39:19] But if there's a way to just say like,
[00:39:21] how can I just be with myself right now
[00:39:24] through this sensation?
[00:39:25] Almost like you're holding yourself,
[00:39:27] like as you're feeling this discomfort.
[00:39:31] Because by just doing that,
[00:39:33] it's like building that self-trust, that capacity,
[00:39:37] even if you don't feel like it is in the minute
[00:39:40] or in that moment.
[00:39:43] And it can be that simple.
[00:39:45] Thank you for saying that, that is very important
[00:39:47] because you're not gonna understand
[00:39:49] or wanna do it in those moments, in the beginning,
[00:39:52] but you are building that trust and capacity.
[00:39:56] Yeah.
[00:39:56] And if it's nurturing, you could, you know,
[00:39:58] take a deep breath or if that's triggering,
[00:40:01] you could just imagine your feet on the ground,
[00:40:04] you know, with the earth supporting you
[00:40:06] or listen to Grace's podcast while you're doing it.
[00:40:12] Yeah.
[00:40:13] And just know that there are a lot of people out there
[00:40:15] who care about you and want you to feel better.
[00:40:19] And to know that people care.
[00:40:21] And it's not because I know we use this phrase a lot,
[00:40:24] but we aren't broken.
[00:40:26] It's just we're actually like learning
[00:40:28] to really take care of ourselves and what matters most.
[00:40:32] Yeah, exactly.
[00:40:35] Thank you.
[00:40:36] Thank you so much for the conversation and for saying that.
[00:40:39] No, I never know, like I told you before,
[00:40:42] I don't plan these out necessarily,
[00:40:44] but I have a topic in mind.
[00:40:45] And I think that the way that you speak
[00:40:49] about some of these topics and just your,
[00:40:50] you can tell the journey you've been through
[00:40:52] and the work that you do comes through.
[00:40:54] So thank you for the work that you do for yourself,
[00:40:57] so that it also, you know, helps others
[00:40:59] because I mean, as mentioned in the beginning,
[00:41:02] it's cliche, but it's very true.
[00:41:03] Like I think if you're walking the walk,
[00:41:05] that's that makes you the best mentor
[00:41:07] and helper and teacher you can be.
[00:41:09] Yeah.
[00:41:10] Well, thank you for saying that.
[00:41:11] And I'm really glad cause that makes me feel good.
[00:41:15] Yeah.
[00:41:16] Good, good.
[00:41:16] Okay.
[00:41:17] So I will obviously have all these links below,
[00:41:19] but can you share with us like how people can find you
[00:41:22] and what you're offering?
[00:41:23] How do you help people now?
[00:41:25] Yeah, I'm happy to.
[00:41:27] I have kind of a program with helping people
[00:41:32] it's through one-to-one work
[00:41:34] and my, I'll give you my website information
[00:41:38] so you can, people can reach out to me there.
[00:41:41] I also have been doing some workshops with Ellen Alden.
[00:41:45] She has my COVID community,
[00:41:50] so I do join her community twice a month for Q&A.
[00:41:55] So if you'd like to see me there, you can.
[00:41:58] And then I'm hoping to start offering
[00:42:01] some group programs and coaching.
[00:42:05] I will be also doing some more mindfulness
[00:42:08] meditation talks as well.
[00:42:10] So stay tuned.
[00:42:13] Amazing.
[00:42:14] Looks like a lot of good things to come.
[00:42:15] Cool.
[00:42:17] All right.
[00:42:18] Thank you again, Rita, for coming on
[00:42:21] and I know this will be helpful for everyone.
[00:42:23] It was good to talk to you.
[00:42:25] Yeah, thank you so much for having me
[00:42:27] and thank you for offering this for the community
[00:42:30] as an opportunity to share our stories
[00:42:34] because we all heal when we can share our stories too.
[00:42:38] Exactly, exactly.
[00:42:39] Well, stay tuned everyone and I'll talk to you next week.
[00:42:43] If this podcast means something to you,
[00:42:45] it would mean so much to me
[00:42:46] if you could do these couple things.
[00:42:48] One, go to the Heal With Grace Show page
[00:42:50] wherever you listen and tap the plus sign
[00:42:53] or click on the follow button
[00:42:54] so you don't miss an episode.
[00:42:56] It helps both of us out.
[00:42:57] While you're there,
[00:42:58] if you could give a five star review
[00:43:00] so that this podcast can reach more people,
[00:43:03] it would mean so much to me
[00:43:05] so I can continue sharing episodes
[00:43:06] that help you as well as others.
[00:43:09] Thanks for listening
[00:43:10] and I hope this brings you hope on your journey.