How to Recover from ME/CFS with Rebecca Tolin

[00:00:00] Hello, hello, and welcome back to the Heal With Grace podcast. Our guest today explains how MECFS
[00:00:08] is a nervous system and brain response so clearly. So if you've dealt with any kind of chronic fatigue,
[00:00:14] long COVID, post-viral syndrome, things like that, you have got to listen and save this episode
[00:00:20] because it will really help you understand actually what's going on and the recovery
[00:00:26] So Rebecca Tolen is a mind-body coach who overcame 13 years of MECFS and other debilitating
[00:00:32] conditions. After seeing 50 practitioners, Rebecca finally recovered through mind-body healing.
[00:00:38] She now helps people with CFS, long COVID, and other neuroplastic conditions reclaim
[00:00:43] well-being, self-compassion, and inner wisdom. Rebecca is the creator of the Be Your Own Medicine
[00:00:49] course which blends neuroscience with somatic meditation, emotional awareness, brain training,
[00:00:54] and nervous system regulation. She spreads science and story through her blog and YouTube channel
[00:01:00] and you can learn more about Rebecca through her website which I will of course link below.
[00:01:04] I'm really excited for you to hear this. I actually met her at the AT&S conference. We
[00:01:08] sat next to each other towards the end. Actually no, I think it was at the very end
[00:01:12] of the conference and started talking and I can attest that she is just as kind and wonderful
[00:01:17] in person as she is. She shows up here online. Without further ado, here we go.
[00:01:23] Hey there and welcome to Heal with Grace. I'm your host Grace Secker and I'm a holistic licensed
[00:01:29] therapist and nervous system coach who believes that the chronic and often unseen symptoms you're
[00:01:34] living with are a sign of something deeper going on. A sign that your nervous system
[00:01:38] needs attention. In each episode I'll share the science behind the most common chronic
[00:01:43] health disorders plus holistic health tips using mental, physical, and spiritual practices.
[00:01:48] You'll hear what I've learned in my journey and the true stories from our trusted guests
[00:01:53] so you can feel less alone in your experience and give yourself grace no matter what you're
[00:01:57] going through. So without further ado, settle in and get cozy. It's time to heal with Grace.
[00:02:04] Hi Rebecca, thank you so so much for joining. I'm very excited for this episode especially
[00:02:10] since we just met in person for the first time at the conference. So great to see you here.
[00:02:16] It was so fun to meet you in person before we're actually meeting online at the AT&S
[00:02:22] conference where we were with a whole bunch of other mind body geeks really, right? And we
[00:02:26] just got to totally dive into that for three days. Yeah, it's a powerful energy to be around
[00:02:32] everyone in this movement to really help and support people through chronic symptoms. So
[00:02:38] yeah and to see how many practitioners are doing this and how much research is showing
[00:02:43] that it works. I mean you and I happened to be sitting next to each other so that was fun to get
[00:02:48] to meet. Yeah and I recognized you because I'd heard about your program before and then I went
[00:02:52] to your talk there which we're going to talk about a little bit here. So first and foremost
[00:02:57] tell us a little about you. You've been in this journey for a while and teaching and doing
[00:03:00] this work. So tell us about you know where you are and what you're doing now.
[00:03:05] Yeah I started out as a journalist and then I got sick after a really traumatic event which was
[00:03:12] diagnosed with ME-CFS as well as post-viral syndrome, chronic Lyme, lots of different
[00:03:19] things over the years but chronic fatigue syndrome was at the core of it and I couldn't work
[00:03:26] or really function in the world much for 13 years. I had to leave my career, I was on
[00:03:32] disability, I was totally incapacitated and I tried all these different things which maybe we'll
[00:03:38] talk about later and finally then I kind of let go of the medical maze and all the things I was
[00:03:45] trying and all the practitioners I was going to who were giving me treatments or supplements.
[00:03:52] I discovered this mind-body approach and I recovered and it was a massive turning point
[00:03:59] for me in my level of hope and optimism but also in actually being able to resolve these symptoms
[00:04:05] that I lived with for so long. So I knew that I wanted to devote my life to helping other people.
[00:04:11] I had always said if I recover I will share that with other people and the amazing thing about
[00:04:16] this approach which I think is very similar to yours is that you can share it with other
[00:04:21] people. You know it's not some drug that has to be prescribed by a doctor it's like
[00:04:27] unlocking our internal medicine. So now I teach and coach and write and just help others wake up to
[00:04:34] this and to their own healing potential. Yeah I love that the unlocking your own potential right
[00:04:41] your own healing potential because it's true it's what we're doing and you're right I've never
[00:04:45] actually thought about it that way we can share this it's not a prescription it is that's why there's
[00:04:50] more and more of us now feeling very called to share and teach this work
[00:04:54] because it's completely changed some of our lives so it's so accessible right it's so low tech in a
[00:05:00] way but there is a lot of science that is showing the efficacy of this work but yeah it is something
[00:05:07] that people that are therapists like you or coaches like me doctors physical therapists or any
[00:05:13] kind of practitioner can share. So take us back and share with us a little bit more about 13 years
[00:05:19] that's a long time to be from what I understand very sick so tell us about that definitely so it
[00:05:25] started with a virus and I had that quintessential crash that you hear a lot with chronic fatigue
[00:05:31] syndrome where I went from being this world traveling broadcast journalist to not being
[00:05:36] able to walk from room to room in my house and especially in the initial phase at times I had
[00:05:42] to crawl from the bedroom to the bathroom I was too weak to stand up the brain fog was so severe I
[00:05:49] couldn't remember the name of my best friend I couldn't sleep which was really hard to have that
[00:05:55] tired and wired feeling all the time it was like I was always revved up so I couldn't fall asleep
[00:06:00] but I was utterly exhausted at the core lots of other symptoms too with hormones with
[00:06:06] GI issues bloating constipation lots of things and so I did what people do in that circumstances
[00:06:13] is go to lots of doctors and especially in the early years my mom had to drive me around or
[00:06:19] fly me different places and we saw different CFS specialists that was always the first diagnosis
[00:06:26] but they just gave me either medications or supplements or prescribed hyperbaric oxygen
[00:06:31] treatments or different things and I tried all those things as well as crazy things like
[00:06:38] someone's rife machine in their basement or you know which if people get better from that that's
[00:06:43] great it's just none of those things actually worked for me I was on 30 different supplements
[00:06:47] at one point for three years I only ate leafy greens and protein like fish or chicken
[00:06:54] because it was an anti-candida diet so life had become really miserable scary you know it
[00:07:00] was really scary because I didn't know what was wrong with me and they said there was some doctors
[00:07:06] and especially a natural path that I really trusted and and saw that was going to be a
[00:07:11] guiding light out of this he said there's no cure you have to manage this the rest of your life
[00:07:16] and you know I was in my mid 30s when this first hit and it felt just like a life sentence
[00:07:23] so that went on for 13 years to different degrees I saw 50 different practitioners
[00:07:29] until I really I would say had a big shift in my frame of mind and it was letting go of fighting my
[00:07:37] body fighting the symptoms accepting them something that was resigned but I accepted them
[00:07:43] and I also just let go of trying to get other people to fix me because it was clear
[00:07:49] that wasn't working and I actually was like spending more time in nature I was listening
[00:07:54] to Eckhart Tolle I was reading and writing poetry I couldn't really read much but I could read a few
[00:08:00] words and I just kind of fell into this state of grace really I felt like it was a certain
[00:08:05] surrender that happened that I was really at peace with myself emotionally and mentally
[00:08:10] and spiritually the symptoms were still there quite strong at this point I could do like I
[00:08:15] could go do grocery shopping but that's about it you know I could of course could take care
[00:08:20] of myself but that was about it and from this place of surrender I met some woman in an online
[00:08:27] writing class who told me she recovered from me CFS and her story was so similar to my story
[00:08:34] there weren't podcasts like yours back then that I knew of in 2018 and so it was the first person
[00:08:40] I knew who had recovered and recovered through this approach and she said Rebecca you're not
[00:08:45] sick you're not broken your nervous system in your brain or in this hypervigilant state and you can
[00:08:51] recover and I was like oh I just got it I guess nothing else worked it was the only thing that
[00:08:57] made sense I had traced the trauma back to preceding the symptoms and I got up and I said I'm not sick
[00:09:03] filled with energy and I actually ran around my block which was such an example of the power
[00:09:08] of the mind right like when you truly believe you're safe and you're okay and you can recover
[00:09:14] things chef that wasn't the end of the story but it was more like the beginning of this next
[00:09:18] chapter yeah and that's fascinating I love that that's such an example right of the power of this
[00:09:25] and yes obviously your point I'm sure it wasn't just everything happy and great since from there
[00:09:29] but yeah that's a wonderful example I love that what were you told was the cause of your
[00:09:35] chronic fatigue I'm curious I think this can help be helpful for a lot of people when they're
[00:09:39] in this trying to figure it out for sure yeah so many different things typically it was because
[00:09:46] it was a post viral syndrome they would say it's Epstein bar virus so that was something that
[00:09:52] rheumatologists and neurologists were especially focused on then I was also diagnosed with chronic
[00:09:58] Lyme I was diagnosed with mold exposure and then I got kind of all these other secondary
[00:10:04] diagnoses like leaky gut syndrome candida overgrowth but it just felt like they were pointing to so
[00:10:11] many different things that is like how could this all be wrong in my body also the immune system
[00:10:18] damaged mitochondria kind of a lot of the things people are being told still with chronic
[00:10:23] fatigue syndrome and even with long COVID as well yeah exactly oh I was told many of those
[00:10:28] right and at the time I actually very much so believe it I was like oh okay all right well
[00:10:33] there's an answer there but treatment didn't really work it's encouraging at first and I can see why so
[00:10:39] many of us go down all those avenues because someone finally has an answer and it's like okay you take
[00:10:45] these that are going to kill these bacteria or viruses or whatever they are and you'll feel better
[00:10:51] but then yeah for me I didn't feel any better and actually I did antiviral IVs intravenously
[00:10:58] and that really crashed my system it was so bad I ended up back in bed I was bed bound
[00:11:03] and the doctor's like but look here your epstein-barred uh titers are down I was like but I can't get
[00:11:09] out of bed so that was a clue that this was not actually causing the symptoms although he
[00:11:16] thought it was but the treatment didn't help yeah okay so then when you got to this mind
[00:11:22] body work and you had that I'm literally picturing a light bulb over your head like oh my gosh
[00:11:26] I did it now I'm running around the block what was available then in 2018 what did you start doing
[00:11:32] yeah what was really available is just kind of after you go to all the allopathic doctors
[00:11:38] functional medicine naturopathic medicine Chinese medicine Tibetan medicine you know I did all those
[00:11:45] alternative things because they seemed more integrative they seemed like they were looking
[00:11:50] at me as a whole person but they really weren't because they were still looking at the physical
[00:11:57] body as being damaged and these different viruses and bacteria as being the cause and just trying
[00:12:02] to treat those and those practitioners didn't ask like what happened he was there anything
[00:12:07] stressful that happened before you went from traveling the world in a very high you know
[00:12:13] stressful job being fine to not being able to navigate around your house there was
[00:12:19] actually one doctor and he wasn't even in this mind body field one doctor did ask me what had
[00:12:25] happened and then I had wanted him to prescribe these tinctures that he worked with that I
[00:12:30] thought were going to cure me and he said you know I have a feeling if I give you these tinctures
[00:12:35] it's going to sort of reinforce the sense of disempowerment that you're not in control of
[00:12:39] your body and I feel that's at the heart of your symptoms because it was a sexual assault
[00:12:45] that happened before the onset of symptoms and I just remember Grace like sobbing he was looking at
[00:12:52] me and I just started crying because someone did see me and although I don't believe were our trauma
[00:12:58] when that's ignored and suppressed and there's sort of no outlet of understanding it it makes it
[00:13:05] a lot worse so I knew that he was on to something but he still worked with supplements
[00:13:11] he didn't do emotional work or kind of this neuroplastic work yeah and so is your conceptualization
[00:13:17] that that the sexual assault was the how do you explain it is it the cause is it kind of like
[00:13:22] the straw that broke the camel's back what what is that for you yeah yeah I think I think both
[00:13:28] I think it was the straw that broke the camel's back it was so profoundly stressful on every level
[00:13:35] right physically emotionally mentally spiritually I was fearing for my life and that alone can
[00:13:42] absolutely put us in that threat physiology and that we don't get out of that you know and we
[00:13:49] store those emotional memories in our limbic brain and they just continue to send signals of
[00:13:54] danger because there's not that sense of restoration that all is safe now particularly when
[00:14:01] those traumas aren't examined I'm not saying this is true for everyone in the same way
[00:14:06] but we all have that kind of you know stress barrel or stress bucket where it starts filling
[00:14:12] up with stress and then it tips over the edge and at some point our system crashes and I think
[00:14:18] the virus was a stressor on my system as well it it happened shortly after that my immune
[00:14:24] system was compromised but the virus is not what I see is the cause of all those years
[00:14:29] symptoms yeah and that's so commonly what people are chasing because they're told post viral right
[00:14:34] they had something COVID now is kind of the big one Lyme has always been a thing at Epstein bar
[00:14:39] EBV and yeah they're told well oh you had that virus and now you have these symptoms yeah okay so
[00:14:44] post viral right and at first it might again might sound like okay so there's an answer
[00:14:49] but they're missing the deeper layer which is that stress bucket trauma emotional stress mental
[00:14:54] stress like that builds up over time so I went to your talk at the AT&S conference on MECFS
[00:15:00] and you explained it really clearly of how MECFS and chronic symptoms actually develop in the
[00:15:05] brain and nervous system and you kind of just noted it but can you walk us through that again
[00:15:10] like if someone's just starting to understand this and they're like how does that actually
[00:15:13] happen yeah that's such a good point now I'm trying to remember how I explained it
[00:15:18] yeah so what I've come to understand is that when we go through life stressors it could be anything
[00:15:25] from just a series of stressors that are too much for our brain and nervous system to deem as safe
[00:15:32] and to sort of process in a flight fight mode then it could be a trauma but it may not be
[00:15:38] then our system will go into a freeze state and I know I've heard you describe this too that
[00:15:43] mammals freeze up and play dead well we also have that freeze or shutdown state as it's called
[00:15:49] in polyvagal theory when that happens there's a perception in the subconscious brain so this is
[00:15:55] not conscious we're not aware of it but it's the subconscious brain and nervous system that
[00:15:59] really don't even think you can fight off or run from whatever the threat is in your life you
[00:16:05] can't really productively cope with it and so the system goes into this shutdown response and
[00:16:11] it's also very protective in the way that we don't feel as many emotions you know where some people
[00:16:18] will have depression fatigue exhaustion brain fog all these kind of low energy states and in a sense
[00:16:24] it's protecting us from feeling all these really terrifying emotions at times and so what happens
[00:16:31] is then the brain actually learns these neural pathways for symptoms just like when we repeat
[00:16:37] something over and over our brain learns how to do that without us thinking about it and it's strange
[00:16:42] to think our brain can learn that for symptoms but they've seen in brain scans and in in functional
[00:16:48] MRIs that the brain actually does learn certain patterns and certain emotional centers of the
[00:16:53] brain become activated and they stay that way with me CFS and these other kind of chronic
[00:17:00] conditions and then you add to that fear which is the continued fuel for this threat physiology
[00:17:09] and we get that just because of the symptoms themselves but also from well-meaning practitioners
[00:17:14] or other people who are facing the same symptoms in social media and they're trying to get help but
[00:17:19] that scares us more than we develop these conditioned responses in the brain these
[00:17:24] learned associations that this food is dangerous this person's dangerous whatever's in our
[00:17:29] environment or we've been told isn't good for us the brain starts reacting to you know it starts
[00:17:34] becoming really sensitive to life and lots of stimuli that may not even be related to the
[00:17:41] initial stressor and so yeah people get really stuck and I think then when we chase all these
[00:17:47] physical remedies instead of being able to receive this knowledge that you're teaching that this
[00:17:52] is a process in our brain and nervous system largely because of repressed emotions and
[00:17:57] emotional stressors it's not all emotions it's not in your head but emotions signal to the brain
[00:18:03] and nervous system whether we're safe or not and so it's really important to work on those levels
[00:18:08] of ourself and to trace back the origin of the symptoms whether or not you're doing any other
[00:18:15] physical treatments yeah hey friends it's grace if you feel like you've been doing all of the
[00:18:21] treatment protocols and all the different modalities to heal and you're still not
[00:18:24] feeling better and it's just kind of managing things I'm here to talk to you for a second so
[00:18:30] it's not because you're doing it wrong or you just haven't found the answer yet it's truly because
[00:18:35] your nervous system and brain are still operating in protection mode and your nervous system and brain
[00:18:41] when it perceives danger physical or emotional danger and even just ongoing stress it keeps
[00:18:47] your body on high alert so none of those treatment modalities are actually going to
[00:18:52] stick or work until you work with the bottom line which is your brain and nervous system
[00:18:56] because when you're in the danger mode state your digestion immune system hormones and pain
[00:19:01] signals all get affected it's like trying to heal while the alarm bells are still ringing in
[00:19:06] the background and that is why so many people get stuck you can do all of the treatment things
[00:19:12] you want but if your system isn't regulated your body can't access its natural healing state
[00:19:18] this is exactly why I created my four month signature program the mind body healing method
[00:19:25] it's a step by step process that helps you calm your system rewire old stress patterns and
[00:19:30] retrain your brain to feel safe again so you can finally start to heal for good chronic pain
[00:19:35] and illness this is a true recovery program not just management you'll get guided lessons
[00:19:40] nervous system practices live support individual and group support and a community that actually
[00:19:46] understands what you're going through enrollment is now open so you can find the link below in the
[00:19:52] show notes or go to elevate therapy wellness.com slash mind body healing method because until
[00:19:59] your brain and body feel safe no protocol or treatment plan will actually work when your
[00:20:05] nervous system works everything starts to heal I like how you described how probably the onset
[00:20:13] of whatever your symptoms are post viral the first virus whatever it is there's an initial there
[00:20:18] but actually what makes it prolonged and probably brings on more and more symptoms is the fear
[00:20:23] that takes place to along the way because there's trauma within the actual journey of the illness
[00:20:30] right and that trauma creates the fear the trauma of trying a million different things going
[00:20:34] through who knows spending how much money right and yes trauma of the journey yeah well right
[00:20:40] there's that initial fear in trauma and then every step in the way there's more fear often when
[00:20:46] things don't work and there's also you know grief and there can be anger and all these other emotions
[00:20:51] that most of us who get these chronic symptoms may not be aware of because we live in a culture
[00:20:56] that tells us to just act happy and not really express how we're feeling or we don't learn
[00:21:02] healthy ways to do that within ourselves right and so that was a really big turning point
[00:21:07] for me and I'm sure you see this with your clients as I do is when we realize that our
[00:21:14] body isn't damaged and all these different microbes are really meant to live in the body
[00:21:19] I mean I'm not saying there there is a time to treat things with antibiotics and it depends
[00:21:24] on the diagnoses but I'm talking about for my case that the fear just keeps the nervous
[00:21:29] system revved up and it keeps creating these fear pathways in the brain and that
[00:21:34] perpetuates the symptoms and so when we can actually realize my body's not damaged even
[00:21:40] though these symptoms are highly disabling and real we can start shifting the relationship with
[00:21:46] our body and even learning to befriend our body to bring in self-compassion to bring in
[00:21:52] courage that you know it's okay to start challenging myself and just to bring it
[00:21:57] which I think of as self-empowerment and also just bringing in that sense of safety
[00:22:02] that is so true that once you start to really not just recognize but really believe that you're not
[00:22:07] broken right that actually all the testing you probably have done which you kind of mentioned
[00:22:12] earlier leaky gut candida mold all these things which I just had a podcast episode
[00:22:17] out on that because it's something I talk about often and it's I was like okay we need to talk
[00:22:21] about this you know those things really show up but it doesn't mean you need to be reacting
[00:22:26] it doesn't mean your body's broken or something's wrong they're very normal human body things
[00:22:31] and I don't know about you but for me it took I mean as I'm thinking about it I think it was levels
[00:22:35] of understanding that my body is okay and almost like I went through different symptoms
[00:22:40] kind of grasping one symptom being like oh wait no I'm not no I'm okay I'm not broken in that sense
[00:22:46] and then kind of keep going through that because it's it's hard when you've been
[00:22:49] I mean you went through a 13-year journey of being told something's wrong on all these levels
[00:22:53] it's kind of hard to flip it in the opposite direction sometimes well it is yeah there were
[00:22:57] times even after I had this revelation where it was like well but maybe this supplement would just
[00:23:04] help me and if a supplement helps that's great it just they didn't they didn't help me after trying
[00:23:10] hundreds and hundreds of supplements and so it's such a reversal of how we're trained to think
[00:23:16] in the allopathic medical system and we grow up in that right so where something's wrong
[00:23:21] with your body your arm hurts because you fractured it and so we need to treat the arm
[00:23:27] and so we very much go to there must be something wrong with my body right and I've even had symptoms
[00:23:33] since I recovered occasionally and it can be like actually before I spoke at the AT&S
[00:23:40] conference two years ago and there I spoke to the whole room so it was like 300 people it was
[00:23:45] like my heroes and mentors in the field I'm speaking to I literally turned as red as my shirt
[00:23:52] for people that are listening I am wearing a red shirt and I'm not kidding I had red splotches
[00:23:57] all over my face I actually looked like a burn victim and that was a new symptom for me
[00:24:01] but I knew it was my body I knew it was a stress response trying to protect me so I did
[00:24:07] all my practices and I did take a Zyrtec and thankfully it went down before the event
[00:24:13] but I was at first I'm like what happened you know what is physically wrong with me
[00:24:18] and for about five minutes and then I'm like no this is what's happening emotionally I'm really
[00:24:23] stressed like it's very scary to be so visible in front of the people you most admire so then
[00:24:29] I brought in a bunch of self-compassion and you know somatic meditations and grounding
[00:24:34] and I think that was part of why it it went away yeah I can assume quickly imagine that I
[00:24:40] would have something would pop up in my body if I were about to go speak yeah right I'm kind of Howard
[00:24:46] Schumer it's like yeah gosh yeah I mean it makes sense and also that's just an automatic thought
[00:24:54] pattern like you said we've grown up thinking of health in a certain way so how would we not
[00:24:58] first try to figure something out right what's physically wrong what's happening
[00:25:02] and again you know obviously get things checked out if you need to there might be on
[00:25:06] occasions or depending on what it is but when you have these skills and tools it becomes a
[00:25:11] different journey of looking at your body like you said I was there for five minutes and then I
[00:25:17] realized okay I can help myself I know what this is right it is in the past I would have been
[00:25:25] running off to the dermatologist trying all sorts of different creams and prescriptions
[00:25:30] being really stressed about it and now I feel like I've almost gone the other way I agree with
[00:25:35] you people need to get checked out and we always should make sure if there's new symptoms that
[00:25:40] it's not something treatable through allopathic medicine because if it is actually you're really
[00:25:44] in luck typically because there's active treatments for those things but I know now
[00:25:49] other than my annual exam I rarely go to the doctor and I've actually been thinking I should
[00:25:54] probably just get some preventative checkups but I feel so empowered to know when the
[00:25:59] symptoms are my body that I just don't really go to the doctor that much yeah
[00:26:04] the same way and it took me a little bit to get there and actually that's what I wanted to ask you
[00:26:09] what did your recovery journey look like from that you know kind of a ha moment through the next
[00:26:14] however long what is that what did that look like for you yeah I'm glad you loop back to that
[00:26:18] because for people who think you know it was this aha moment I ran around the block and that
[00:26:23] was it but why aren't I responding or recovering so quickly it really was a journey after that
[00:26:29] because I had a lot of symptoms and they were quite entrenched and so for about the next year
[00:26:35] it was it was a number of months year-ish I really dove into unlearn your pain by Howard Shubiner so
[00:26:42] again back then there really weren't many classes or podcasts and so his book actually does talk
[00:26:48] about chronic fatigue and a whole range of symptoms more people talk about chronic pain
[00:26:53] in our field but I just sort of applied everything to chronic fatigue I emailed Howard Shubiner
[00:26:58] Dr. Shubiner and and just said I still am concerned about these Epstein bar virus titers because so
[00:27:04] many doctors talked about them and he emailed back he's like they are not causing your chronic
[00:27:09] fatigue they're normal antibodies floating around your system which just shows you're
[00:27:13] like 95% of people you've been exposed to Epstein bar at some point and so that helped a lot
[00:27:19] and then I did work with a coach and I did a lot of somatic tracking so a lot of somatic
[00:27:25] work for me because I was quite disconnected from my body I was meditating before this but it wasn't
[00:27:32] it was a mantra based technique transcendental meditation so I was still disconnected so I
[00:27:36] needed to come into the body with somatic tracking and track the sensations I was feeling
[00:27:42] through this lens of safety and lots of other somatic work from Peter Levine and
[00:27:47] pendulating and humming and just started learning a lot of practices and then I did
[00:27:53] some trainings as I was feeling a little better with Howard Shubiner and Alan Gordon used to lead
[00:27:57] one in person when they were just developing their program so I got to take one and also took
[00:28:03] yeah mind body and nervous system and trauma healing and also worked with the therapist at
[00:28:08] times and so I felt like well it really took great exposure though exposing myself to stimuli
[00:28:15] again and again and not fearing the symptoms and I think that may have been the most
[00:28:19] significant part of my recovery because honestly every time I would step out on my little bubble
[00:28:24] I would get pushback particularly insomnia that was that was my most stubborn vexing symptom
[00:28:30] I lived with it for like 15 years I needed to some more nuances to overcome that one
[00:28:36] but yeah after those months I felt like I was back to my life I was exercising training to
[00:28:42] be a coach then started working I'm traveling and every time I would just really reassure myself it was
[00:28:49] safe and not react to the symptoms and I started seeing the symptoms as actually a window of opportunity
[00:28:56] instead of like I've gone too far because with me CFS we're taught to pace if you get symptoms
[00:29:02] actually the conventional wisdom is like you've gone too far you need to go back to your
[00:29:09] this flipped everything on the head with this neuroplastic knowledge and it was like
[00:29:13] when you have symptoms it's a chance to retrain your brain that both your body's safe
[00:29:19] and also the activity or stimuli is safe by not reacting to it right and by telling yourself
[00:29:25] different messages I'm so glad you brought that up at the end because that happens a lot
[00:29:30] with people right where they're starting to get their selves push their selves out of their
[00:29:34] tolerance levels a little bit expose themselves to the different environments that have been
[00:29:38] fearful and maybe they crash or have symptoms whatever it is and yeah they're kind of like oh
[00:29:43] I did something wrong or push myself too hard yes yeah no you didn't do anything wrong that's I
[00:29:49] didn't do it wrong a lot because it comes up often yeah exactly and it's easy to think we did
[00:29:54] something wrong because we feel so bad and also a lot of people have been taught to pace
[00:30:00] where it's like you're using your symptoms as a barometer of whether you've done too much and
[00:30:04] with this approach it's the opposite it's like for me and I develop I use something called the
[00:30:08] safe zone strategy but basically it's a sense of internal safety how much can you do and still
[00:30:15] feel some sense of safety some mindfulness watching your experience watching the sensations
[00:30:21] without spiraling into anxiety and everyone has a different threshold we need to challenge
[00:30:27] ourselves and so in in this challenge zone of this model we often will get symptoms and we don't
[00:30:33] necessarily want to retreat but once it starts feeling overwhelming and we're questioning this
[00:30:38] whole approach and we're scared and we're just running for the 30 bottles the supplements again
[00:30:43] we've just usually gone too far and it's like okay I've got to come back to safety
[00:30:47] do some nervous system regulation play with my pet be in nature do something that just
[00:30:52] resets my system yeah and I think that's also important that's different than shutting down
[00:30:58] so even from my experiences I didn't recognize that component where I'd be like oh okay my
[00:31:03] symptoms are here for a couple days well I'm just I just have to wait it out or something
[00:31:08] and for me my shutout or void was like binging TV and I'm just like well I'm you know I'm
[00:31:12] sick I'm just that's what I'm gonna do but I actually think that like it wasn't helping me
[00:31:17] I was just kind of sitting in a bunch of fear but avoiding it so resting is a little different
[00:31:24] I was saying I'm resting I really fully rest and instead maybe being in nature a little bit
[00:31:30] slowing down taking care of myself kind of like you said that's different than just like well
[00:31:35] they're here I can't do anything about it and gotta wait it out because actually that doesn't
[00:31:39] necessarily work either just waiting it out right right because we know with ME CFS or long
[00:31:45] COVID or and even just chronic fatigue there's no amount of rest that restores your energy
[00:31:50] it just doesn't really work and so yeah it's just a whole different mindset isn't it so what
[00:31:55] does your life look like now when you're physically and your mental emotional health
[00:32:00] like how does how does it feel yeah I feel great I feel great I mean I dance I do weight
[00:32:06] training I practice yoga I hike I do all these physical things that I love that I
[00:32:12] couldn't do for so long and body movement is one of my joys and so to be able to do this movement
[00:32:18] again and to hike out in nature which I love it's just such a joy and I just you know I have
[00:32:25] relationships I've been able to develop more relationships for my life because before I was
[00:32:29] sort of isolated the the symptoms would cause a lot of sorry socializing would cause a lot of
[00:32:35] symptoms so and then my work is is my passion it just really feels like my life's work to
[00:32:41] I also lead groups like you and and coach one-on-one and just to see people go through this
[00:32:47] transformation from being disempowered to empowered from being hard on themselves or critical to
[00:32:54] self-compassionate and from thinking that they're broken to realizing that they're actually
[00:33:00] imperfectly perfect as they are right and just reclaiming more of our own authenticity
[00:33:06] so it's a full life I work very full-time and just feel so grateful to feel
[00:33:13] in balance again when I do get symptoms here there it's like I know it's because I'm pushing too
[00:33:20] hard or you know a personality trait is now running the show which perfectionism is my favorite
[00:33:26] I still work with that but I know it's just a guidance to check back in with myself and
[00:33:34] really see what I need you know what I need more of or less of in my life and a lot of times
[00:33:39] it's just emotional attunement and connection and sometimes there there is a message I feel
[00:33:45] like if I get symptoms now there's almost always a message it doesn't just happen randomly
[00:33:50] when I call the wisdom of symptoms yeah that's when you know you've come far in your recovery
[00:33:56] you've gotten to a certain place in recovery where you can see your symptoms from a place
[00:34:00] of compassion and probably love and as a messenger yeah so much inner work with yourself
[00:34:07] exactly it took a long time to get there but now I genuinely do know the symptoms are part of my
[00:34:14] physiology just trying to help me trying to guide me back into more peace and balance yeah it was
[00:34:21] a turning point for me where I think it was Howard Schuberner said this in something I was
[00:34:26] watching that my body symptoms are a human response everyone has them to some degree right some of us
[00:34:32] obviously take a little different route more chronically or severe but it is a human condition
[00:34:38] right and it's so interesting how like I think most people know that to the degree that
[00:34:43] almost everyone can think of having a headache or a stomach ache say after a stressful deadline
[00:34:49] or an argument with somebody but but it's like we don't make the connection that can just
[00:34:53] happen chronically and our brain just learns those patterns in some stress cycle gets kind of caught
[00:34:58] in place but it's also a reminder to learn some new tools and really to learn the language of
[00:35:05] our nervous system which I think is something all children and adults should learn right
[00:35:11] we need it it's like an operating manual for our own body and when we go through
[00:35:16] this chronic symptom cycle it's an invitation to learn things that we need to stay more happy
[00:35:24] and healthy yeah definitely I wanted one last subject I guess you if you will um wanted to
[00:35:29] touch on the trauma piece a little bit because we didn't touch on that especially in probably how
[00:35:33] you teach and how you guide people now how does the trauma component come into it and I'll give
[00:35:38] a little bit of a context some people can recognize and say like yes I've had drama in
[00:35:43] my life and they're kind of connecting some dots right but also some people are like I don't know
[00:35:48] what trauma I have or I can't identify anything right and I'm hearing all the time that trauma
[00:35:53] is stored in the body so how do you explain that yeah well you know there's a exercise I
[00:35:58] really like that's in Howard Schubner's book the symptom timeline and there's others like
[00:36:03] that that we work with where we really look at when the symptoms started and typically
[00:36:08] we're connecting it with just something whatever physical was happening in our body
[00:36:13] but we look at what was happening emotionally and I would say that's core to my work is with
[00:36:17] the symptoms always turning it around to what's happening emotionally when you're feeling these
[00:36:22] sensations in your body and so as people go through this timeline of their life there's
[00:36:27] so many ah-has of like actually when I started getting UTIs I was concerned my partner was
[00:36:34] cheating on me or there's some emotional stress that's happening there and so as people make
[00:36:40] those connections whether it they would consider it a capital T trauma a small T trauma or just a
[00:36:45] stressor it can help shore up that belief that there's an emotional connection as we learn to
[00:36:51] sometimes just acknowledge that other times just support ourselves in a more loving way
[00:36:57] how we wish someone else would have treated us that itself can shift the symptoms I'm not a
[00:37:03] therapist so I certainly don't say that I can directly work with trauma but almost everybody
[00:37:09] I work with would self-identify as having had traumatic experiences and I think especially
[00:37:16] with people who do have these really debilitating symptoms for a number of years and I just find
[00:37:21] that this work like the emotional piece but also just retraining the brain and
[00:37:27] moving back into our life can be the antidote people need and if they if they need deeper
[00:37:33] trauma work I always recommend they see a trauma therapist but I don't find everybody
[00:37:39] does and I actually don't think the trauma therapy I pursued ever shifted any of my symptoms
[00:37:44] you know it would it brought some self-awareness but the symptoms didn't shift that way they shift
[00:37:49] through these approaches that we're talking about I actually completely agree even coming
[00:37:55] before coming to this work and before doing this as a therapist yeah I would always think
[00:38:01] well trauma therapy is trauma therapy you have to get there get to the root do you know
[00:38:05] be trained in it and all the things but what I find is that you can very much so do some trauma
[00:38:10] therapy in a certain modality but if you don't have the connecting piece that your symptoms
[00:38:16] are neuroplastic and it's a brain nervous system response and you connect those pieces
[00:38:20] then this alone trauma therapy alone doesn't actually shift the symptoms might help in
[00:38:25] other ways yes but you have to have that connection that's what I tell people when they said well I've
[00:38:31] done EMDR I've done somatic therapy I've done trauma work right why isn't anything changing I'm like you
[00:38:36] haven't connected the dots here exactly that's the missing piece is this body of knowledge
[00:38:43] which is really now proven in many scientific studies that shows when we go through emotional
[00:38:48] stressors our physiology reacts just like it does when we go through physical stressors
[00:38:54] and it can learn that pattern and get stuck in that and so people have to really know
[00:38:58] my body's not damaged even though I feel so symptomatic and that piece is so critical and then
[00:39:05] the emotional work could make a bigger difference right I also did a lot of journaling and so I
[00:39:10] found the journaling and working somatically with emotions in the body really are what
[00:39:15] shifted the symptoms along with the behavioral shifts of just starting to live my life and
[00:39:20] not fearing the symptoms yeah yeah it all goes together it really does and I think just the
[00:39:27] educational piece of it of this is what's happened that is a almost non-negotiable and
[00:39:32] that's you have to understand that and educate yourself and learn it and then start using these
[00:39:35] tools exactly that's what it is and it is incredible because there's so much free information
[00:39:41] out there and practices some people you know they'll contact me and just say oh I just
[00:39:45] watched your youtube videos and other people's and I've recovered and it's so beautiful that it's
[00:39:50] so available and then some people want more support but it's a process that happens inside of ourselves
[00:39:57] from the inside out yeah yeah so what would you say to someone who's listening who feels
[00:40:02] pretty hopeless or stuck right now I so understand what that's like thinking you've tried all the
[00:40:07] things why try one more thing and I would say there is hope there is a way out and don't give
[00:40:14] up keep trying but notice the patterns you could do some writing and sort of notice the patterns of
[00:40:20] what you've tried and how that makes you feel mentally emotionally physically and if those
[00:40:25] things aren't working those particular types of approaches let's just say integrative medicine
[00:40:30] try something else you know try something like this that's really working with your internal
[00:40:37] self your internal landscape your mind your emotions because it's so empowering it will
[00:40:43] change your life in all kinds of ways in addition to the symptoms shifting but I would say you know
[00:40:48] keep finding keep seeking that thing that is going to be your medicine because it's out there
[00:40:56] and it's actually in here it's inside of you my course is called be your own medicine so I
[00:41:00] really believe we all have that but when you find something and it kind of lights you up like
[00:41:06] if you listen to Grace's podcast and you get a little bit of curiosity and optimism it's
[00:41:11] like follow that you know and if something shuts you down and makes you feel hopeless but you think
[00:41:16] you just have to do it that's not likely to be your healing beautifully said I love that yeah
[00:41:22] because we often go down that route because we give our power over to other people or doctors of
[00:41:27] course understandably so you know trying to help yourself I love that you named your course be
[00:41:32] your own medicine yeah we all have our medicine inside well that and where we can find you
[00:41:38] yeah so my website rebecca tolin.com is a good place as well as my youtube channel you can also
[00:41:45] just find rebecca tolin coaching on youtube and um maybe you have this experience too there's
[00:41:51] really something powerful that can happen in a group although the groups I lead are it is a
[00:41:56] really in-depth program because I felt like when I first recovered there just wasn't much out there
[00:42:02] and I wanted to give people a download of the knowledge the teachings 30 somatic practices writing
[00:42:09] exercises so that's in this be your own medicine course which is self-paced or taught as a live
[00:42:14] cohort and some people prefer just kind of working themselves and other people like the camaraderie
[00:42:21] yeah beautiful well thank you for your work thank you for sharing and thank you for sharing
[00:42:25] your story thank you for having me and thank you for all the work you do Grace you're
[00:42:30] I appreciate you coming on and yeah talk to you soon if this podcast means something to you it would
[00:42:37] mean so much to me if you could do these couple things one go to the heal with grace show page
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[00:42:47] it helps both of us out while you're there if you could give a five star review so that this
[00:42:53] podcast can reach more people it would mean so much to me so I can continue sharing episodes
[00:42:58] that help you as well as others thanks for listening and I hope this brings you hope on your journey